In a timley article that I just read in my new STS, there is a big article on lining or "flossing".
On the rivers I fish in Northern California, there are big firing lines of flossers downstream from the hatcheries.
Here, the concentrations of fish bring out the ugly side of the human predator.
Guys swearing at the top of their lungs, fistfights, full on snagging with big trebbles and wading through knee deep garbage.
A true wilderness experience.
In this article the author suggests that perhaps there should be a 4 foot limit put on leaders and that fly fisherman are as guilty as bead fisherman when it comes to flossing fish off their nets.
Do you think that there should be some restriction put on this type of fishing technique?

If this "discussion " starts to get ugly or personal, I'm closing it.

Good luck enforcing it. We can't get enough (hardly any) enforcement on major poaching grounds like the Quilicene as it is. I really doubt that we are going to see many enforcement agents doing much about this.

Keep your trigger finger ready JG.

Flossing has it's place in fishing. The example you provide is a good one. If they are down stream of a hatchery, then they are most likely targeting fish that are artificially produced for consumption and should be removed from the system so they don't push out any nates (if there are any left on the system). Just because it may not be someones idea of "sporting" doesn't mean it isn't someone else's.

There are other times like on the Russian in AK where the Sockeye can damage their own survivability if too many escape to spawn. The system can only support so many fish and by the time they make it to the confluence, there aren't alot of 'biters' in the crowd. Flossing supports a good tourist fishery and succeeds in controlling the escapement.

Obviously, there is far more fisheries where it shouldn't be allowed and is an unacceptable practice.

Flossing is SNAGGING ,and sportsmen don't snag.
This whole snagging epidemic has ruined a fishing ethic 75 years in the making ,up here in BC .Until the sockeye mistake of 12 years ago ,snagging was frowned upon and seldom seen in these parts ,in that short time it has become the technique of choice for many salmon fisheries and even steelhead now ,SICKENING.I point a large finger at the tackle stores and anything for a buck guides who keep it going.Being a guide myself ,I understand the things that attract people to resort to those techniques ,BUT ,if you have to use snagging to catch fish ,sell the boat ,you don't have what it takes.

Fish put up a better fight when hooked in the tail!!

Flossing IS SNAGGING!!!! Snagging is ruining some great fisheries. Just look at rivers like the Skoke and the Puyallup, etc... Most of the guys I see along these rivers are there to snag fish. They snag and release until they they are ready to go home, or get the one they want. Then some of them fish after they quota up. I would think that there is no way in hell they will ever have enough enforcement to effectively deal with the problem of snagging, so I have come to the point where I think they should just allow it. Let BUBBA snag. In fact there should be rivers that allow it only! Then we who want to fish the way the SPORT was intended to be, can do so in peace. Also, it would be my suggestion that after you have snagged your FIRST fish you kill it and GET OFF THE RIVER!!!! Take your TROPHY FISH and go take a picture of it next to the truck and then leave!!!! This way the fish will actually have a greater chance at survival. Crowds would be reduced because it would only take about 15 minutes to limit out.

Flossing/Snagging is a method for getting meat on the table. Nothing more.

Should it be banned?

Well, if there is a fishery (hatchery) that is set aside for all the returning fish to either be caught, or destroyed, then setting up a well controlled, SMALL AREA as a "harvest only" location to make better use of the resource then I would have no problem with that. Makes more sense than trashing very edible fish.

That said, snagging/flossing has no relation at all to sportfishing. There needs to be a clear separation between the two...in one case sportsmen are fishing, and the other folks are getting meat for the table rather than have it go to waste.

So, IMO, flossing/snagging has it's place...although it is a very narrow one and only under very specific circumstances.

Mike

If the "crackers" that have to fish Blue Creek, Reiter, Tokul or any other "cracker" hole want to be the snagger's they are just to bring a fish home, I say let'em have those spots, makes for a little less competition for the "fisherman" on the rest of the rivers.

I know there is a certain number of people that don't even know they are flossing.

A few years ago I was fishing the Stilly during a heavy humpy run. The fish were so thick moving up stream it was impossible to fish anything but a floating line and fly. I tried to fish with an intermidiate line and foul hooked 2 fish in 2 casts. After cussing that I had left my floating line in the truck a guy watching me asked why I needed to change lines since I was catching fish. I tried to explain to him that the fish were flossed and he had never heard of that before. To him the fish were hooked in the mouth and that was good enough. I ended up hiking out and getting my floater and fishing a wog on the surface for some incredible surface humpy action. There were so many fish that it didn't take long to find the aggresive fish that would hit a surface fly. While others on the river were snagging some watched and asked about fishing the surface for humpies having never seen it done before. A few tried surface flies and the rest kept on snagging.

In my opinion floating lines and surface flies were the only legal way to fish that day. There were to many fish to do it any other way.

1. Flossing is already illegal...and I'm not going to bother re-hashing how and why, as it can be "searched" here and anyone can find the other forty-two times it has been argued over.

2. It has no place, anywhere, not even in terminal areas full of non-biting hatchery fish, as no one should be practicing that type of fishing anywhere...because it is impossible to expect them to keep it in some sort of "designated snagging zone"...they'd export it to every river, for every fish...sheesh, they already have.

3. If people justify it by saying "they need something to eat", I challenge them to tell me that buying fishing gear, licenses, paying for gas, and the time spent snagging, is cheaper than going to the store and buying fish. This was true before gas prices exploded, and is triply true now.

4. Flossers and snaggers give all of us a bad name...

5. I don't care if it is difficult to do properly, or some folks are better at it than others...it's hard to rob banks effectively, too, and that doesn't make it into some noble art form.

6. Aggressively report snaggers and flossers and get them off of our rivers.

7. If it is a matter of education, then educate them so that they can recognize what flossing is, and why they shouldn't be doing it.

Fish on...

Todd

I agree with Todd right down the line. The other interesting point is that, just like the Treaty rights thread(s), we seem to see these subjects when most of the rivers are closed down. One more arguement for C & R seasons - it gets us out doing something productive with our time. Although I know this one was spawned from the STS article.

Todd:

You got me to re-thinking my post...

I HATE to see a resource wasted, and know that many hatcheries do not return the fish to the river, but destroy them insted.

Maybe the hatchery collecting these fish and them giving them away would be the best solution. I hate the thought of snagging, too, but had considered it a step ahead of wasting valuable fish meat.

Mike

I agree that something has to be done with the excess hatchery fish, so here are a couple of my options...

1. extend season times or areas to provide access to them

2. increase limits on them

3. send carcasses to food banks, or distribute them to whomever for food

4. dump excess carcasses in tributary streams

5. if so many are being produced that they can't be caught, then don't produce so many.

Take the money that you would have spent producing the excess that gets dumped and put it into something useful, other than providing filler for a landfill, like upgrading the hatchery, buying habitat, increasing production at a different hatchery that doesn't have the "excess fish" problem.

There are probably a lot more, those are just off the top of my head opinions.

Fish on...

Todd

My context for mouth snagging or tail snagging is the Quilcene River. I've fished it twice. The first time, I actually was kinda by myself and didn't really notice what was happening. The second time, I got the drift and thought, "Ok, don't need to go back there."

I have to admit. I go every year and watch. Kind of like "survivor" on TV. Don't know why, but I just have to watch and it's interesting. I stand on the bank of the river for an hour and watch. It's weird.

But in defense of the people that I see doing it. Most looked like Quilcene residents who probably could use having some salmon in the freezer and fill it relatively cheaply. I don't buy the argument that it's cheaper to buy it than catch it. That's assuming you live in Seattle or Everett.

Anyway, the Quilcene only uses like 800 fish and the rest of the 15,000 returners go to food banks, go to Tribes, etc. Seems like they could easily spread the wealth and let everyone show up, hand them a dip net and say, dip 2 fish and take them home. Now that would be cheaper, less impacting on the threatened chum that are in there with the coho, and more equitable. After all, the hatchery operates with everyone's tax dollars. Not just the Tribes and foodbanks would share the wealth.

Short of that, I think the Quilcene hatchery seriously needs to close or reduce production.

My name is Parker, and I am a flosser.

Now, that being said.....

I can't think of any fishery in either Washington, Oregon, or California where flossing should be (or is) legal, or necessary. I don't floss (on purpose) in the Lower 48.

On the other hand, flossing has it's place as a "valid" fishing technique up in AK. Hell, if you can dipnet for fish, why not be able to floss for them? How is scooping up a net full of Reds any more or less "sporting" than yanking a line thru their faces?

Most people don't fish for "sport" in AK. Unless it's a Yuppie Lower-48'er coming up to spend some serious bank "sport fishing" (IE, me), most AK natives are there for the meat. Screw the limits, don't care how you get them, fill the coolers, and get home ASAP.

Personally, I view flossing as just another technique. Like all techniques, flossing works better in particular fisheries, and not all. Even if I could legaly floss, I wouldn't in most circumstances, as it's only effective for bunched up fish that swim with their mouths open (Reds and silvers).

To me, flossing is different that snagging. Flossers are at least trying to get a hook in the corner of a fishes mouth. Flossers tend to let go any fish that is not hooked in the mouth. Flossers tend to be more "sporting", if you can call it that. Maybe even following an unwritten set of rules.

Snaggers, on the other hand, don't care where the fish is hooked. To a snagger, an arse-hooked fish is just as good as a belly, fin, etc hooked fish. They all eat the same for a snagger.

I don't think flossing or snagging should be legal next to any hatchery on the Lower48. Same goes for higher limits. All of that results in big crowds, bad attitudes, garbage everywhere, etc.

Take the Wind River, as an example. Snagging/flossing is illegal and is an OK place to fish with a 1 or 2 fish limit. Make it a 4 fish limit, and it becomes a truly ugly place. Snaggers/flossers everywhere, garbage everywhere, rotting carcasses left for the flies (stinky). It just is nasty when they bump up the limits.

Maybe AkKings is right. Let every Tom, Dick, and Harry snag away for hatchery fish at the hatcheries. That leaves the rest of the river (and fish) for us to go after.

Gee, this is a new topic that's never been debated before........... :rolleyes:

Flossing is snagging and snagging is illegal. That by itself is bad enough. However, the byproducts of this practice make it far worse. The trash, the fights, the meat fishery attitude, and the secondary effects on the fish all combine to really give sport angling a bad name.

I'm not sure there is a good solution. WDFW has implemented several new regs including bait-in-motion and prohibition on drift bobbers tied below the hook. But all the regs in the world won't help if the enforcement is lacking.

The RV Park Hole on the Kalama River around Labor Day is a perfect example. There are lots of snaggers and flossers that take huge numbers of fish while also ruining the fishing for everyone upstream. I'm convinced the only thing that will stop that behavior is a flies-only section on the Kalama from I-5 to Modrow Bridge during Sept-Oct. If the situation does not improve this year, I will personally propose that to the Commission.

Flossing=Snagging Attempting to angle in such a way,that the fish does not take the lure,bait etc. VOLUNTARILY !

I grew up fishing with my grandpa who grew up on the cowlitz during the depression his family did have to resort to some methods that I'd rather not have ever been used(gillnet) but it was the only food they had. I also have relatives that I'm ashamed to say used to pitchfork salmon on a stream that no longer has any. A far different world than I grew up in. I've never understood why anyone would try to snag fish I understand the food idea but I've never known anyone who snags and actually needs the food. The most disturbing thing I've seen fishing was last year on the Cowlitz my Girlfriend and I were fishing from shore when this little rickety old aluminum boat full of people comes and basically crashes into shore. There was a lady some kids and an old guy in it. The lady went to the bathroom and this nasty dark salmon comes by barely clinging to life and the kids didn't see it so my girlfriend points it out to them so they could see a big fish. As soon as the old guy saw it he grabbed the nearest pole and tried to snag it I couldn't even understand why anyone would have any desire to catch such a fish. As for flossing it seems to me to be slightly better than snagging but completely inappropriate for these fisheries that have been decimated by years of overharvest, pollution, and other abuses and we all need to work together to help them recover.

I fly fish and I can tell you that non dry fly-fishing (e.g. sinking lines, wet, etc) does so much flossing that Johnson & Johnson will be proud of