That regulation should have some posititve effects in some of the fisheries...those like one of the most disgusting displays of "sportsmanship" that takes place every fall on the Samish River, where at least 9 out of 10 fish is blatantly snagged.

The Samish is one of the few rivers that the Dept. enacted a "lure must be moving" rule due to the leadhead jig snagger fest that has developed there.

That's one of the few fisheries where I'd be 100% behind closing the river completely and having a season out in Samish Bay that is sufficient to harvest the kings...as I said, the tidewater bank fishery there puts the Kalama to shame for its collection of litter tossing salmon snaggers...and that's saying something, as the Kalama is pretty high on the "disgusting sportsmanship" level, too, when the fall salmon runs are being attacked by the slobs in the lower river.

Fish on...

Todd

The old flossing debate...what a can 'o worms.

What is always forgotten, or someone fails to realize when this subject comes up in a forum like this, or in the STS article, or anywhere else, is that EVERY form of fishing can be called "unethical" by those that want to see it banned. Like hunting, fishing has it's staunch opponents that would love nothing more than to see all forms of fishing outlawed. Yet...we sit around and argue with one another over whether it is "ethical" to voluntarily hook a fish in the mouth versus possibly dragging the line through its mouth and hooking it that way. Be careful, my friends, for those who wish to see fishing go away will join your cause, then come after your method because, at the end of the day, is dragging a fish in from its watery home by cramming a barbed hook in it throat "ethical" in and of itself. I think we need to let this issue rest and remember that it is fishing in general we need to protect. I have not heard of any fisheries that are endangered because of flossing...habitat loss, yes. Over-fishing by commercial fisherman, yes. Streambed erosion, yes. Water issues, yes. Damming of rivers, yes. But...not flossing. Let's focus our energy where it is really needed.

I think eradicating snaggers and snagging from the ranks of sportfishermen is relevant...

Our ability as sportfishermen to be more environmentally friendly, and our ability to impact the stocks more selectively, is one of the key elements of the basis of allocating resources to us.

It also goes to more than just harvesting fish...the snagfests, besides bringing out decidedly un-sportsmanlike behavior when it comes to giving respect to the resources, also come along with the garbage strewn along the riverbank, which might be one of the worst causes of fishing access being restricted...I haven't heard of a property owner closing his property to fishermen because they're too nice of guys, they respect the fish too much, and they respect his property too much.

There is a direct connection between the snagfest terminal areas, the snagfest mentality, and the garbage, fish guts, illegal fires, and toilet paper with its attendant piles of crap...and anyone who doesn't believe this is either in denial, or hasn't walked the banks in the snagfest zones.

It makes us all look bad, it reduces our fishing access, and frankly, it makes me ashamed to be associated with those "sportsmen" who think it is OK.

As with most things, how do we expect other user groups to change their ways, when we can't even get our own house in order?

Snaggers need to be taught to not be snaggers, and if they are unwilling to act like a sportsman, then they need to be removed from our rivers, and from our ranks.

I spend a lot of time in Olympia talking with legislators about sportfishing, and slobs, poachers, and snaggers are part of every conversation...heck, they are on TV every fall, running up and down the banks to the trunks of their cars and back, with terminal area salmon with bleeding tails and vents from where they were hooked.

It looks bad, really bad, and the fact that it is only a fairly small percentage of fishermen who act that way doesn't matter, because that is not the public perception of the problem.

I'll reiterate my points on this thread, and then I'm done with it;

Snaggers (of which flossers are included) have no place on our rivers. Report them, report them, report them.

Fish on...

Todd

Todd - much of what you said is right on. We need to get rid of those that trash our rivers, we need to eliminate blatant snagging (i.e. a fish not hooked in the mouth), etc. The part I have a problem with is putting those people who bead fish (what is being called "flossing" here) in with the scum that you describe above (i.e. those that trash the river and blatantly snag fish). What do you say to someone who occasionally fishes with beads, but is also a huge voice for the resource, and practices catch and release, and will fight to the end to make sure the resource remains stable and in tact for generations to come? Is it worth offending these folks - (and you know there are folks here on this board that fish beads occasionally) - is it worth offending someone who could one day be your biggest ally in the fight to save our fisheries, because you carelessly looped them in with the bad element on the river only because of the method they employ? I think you may be being short-sided, and need to be careful not to over-generalize. And yes, I occasionally bead fish...but I also fish a river where they recently raised the limit to 3 becasuse of the over-abundance, and I never keep a snagged fish, and I relaease 80-90% of the fish I catch, and I can make an argument about the ethics of several types of fishing (seen "jigging" for Salmon in your area yet? It's coming). Bottom line...don't loop me in with the scum that ruin the rivers with their bad habits just because I bead fish. You will force me to explain the potential "unethical" arguments for many of the other methods of fishing, and then we are back to my post above where the anti-fishing gang is the only group that wins...

Nor cal we need to eliminate fishermen who intentionally use techniques other than trying to get the fish to respond and eat the offering. Everything else is unsportnmanlike and everything else is unethical and in the state of Washington everything else is illegal.

Todd's last post was worth its weight in gold!

NorCal: The casual bead flosser you speak of would probably not be offended by the elimination of snagging/flossing and its practitioners from the ranks of sportfishermen. They are obviously well versed in other fishing techniques that they could fall back on... they wouldn't need to floss to continure enjoying the sport.

Given the choice, a thinking man would opt to amputate a gangrenous toe to save the rest of his leg from rotting away.

NorCal,
Have I seen you on the Feather?
You have a point.
I see guides with their clients "Rippin Gibbs" and snagging fish (And Keeping Them!),
And what about the fly fisherman that drift wet flies and seem to be completley immune from any criticism whatsoever?
I see a ton of fish in the magazines hooked on the outside corner of the mouth.
Yes blatant snagging is wrong, but there is also a lot of hypocracy out there!

Y'all got me thinkin be'ins I only got 1 tooth,
would someone show me how to floss, or is it even possible to floss with just one tooth?

Oh well perhaps it's to late to floss.

In regards to the garbage, if your not packing out more than your packing in, your part of the problem. Too many people have the "It's not mine" attitude.

The banks are disgusting and it is shameful.

Nor cal: I agree 100% with the bead thing. I fish them alot because they are a great tool for getting lock jawed hatchery fish to bite.

I also agree with the people that have mentioned we need to get the scum bags that just blatently snag off the river.
After fishing a weekend or two at the skok. and getting pissed off from watching and yelling at people for snagging and keeping snagged fish, I decide to call it a season and pay the gas money and go to the coast.

Salmonella - you hit the nail on the head, and put into words part of what I was (unsuccessfully) trying to say...that is, there is a LOT of hypocracy out there. You mention Gibbs Minnows ("jigging"). Don't know if it has hit the NW rivers yet, but when it does, this board will blow up with anger. Then there is the wet flies, another good example. Even glo bugs for Steelies could be questionable from an ethical perspective, and how many guys on this board do you want to bet drift glo bugs behind Salmon redds looking for Steelies...knowing they are flossing some of those fish, and snagging Salmon in the ass at the same time and pulling them off their nests.

Bottom line, and all I am trying to get across here, is that we could pick apart almost any method out there and bring ethics into question, but what is the point? As long as I am obeying the law (in my home state - looks like I'll have to leave my beads at home if I go to WA - but not AK ) - then give this debate a rest. The important thing is that anglers need to stick together as a group and fight what is really the evil that is destroying our fisheries...water loss, habitat loss, logging, scumbags littering up the river bank, poachers keeping snagged fish, etc. Don't guys like Todd et. al. want me in their corner in the fight against these issues?

And..yes...you have probably seen me on the Feather. Hard to beat that river in the Fall...

They use buzz bombs here, nor cal

JG,

The ones with money use buzz bombs. Up here on the Skagit its Champions and trebles.

Oh yes ,we have so many excess fish ,that snagging is the only way to get rid of them :rolleyes: .Historically mother nature supplied huge surpluses of salmon ,her intended purpose was to fertilize the rivers and provide food for the insects and small fish (smolts and fry ).Now we have people telling us snagging fish is okay because there is excess fish :rolleyes: .The truth is ,our rivers systems need all the carcasses they can get ,this makes for large smolts and this leads to increased survival in our unfriendly oceans .
Another very true ,yet unknown fact ,is that a fish hooked in the belly (having it's body pierced )will now have it's eggs or sperm sacs ,water hardened ,which will in turn render it unable to spawn.How many WILD fish have you destroyed with this mindless HARVEST technique.Any fisherman with marginal skill can easily obtain all the years meat needs with proper angling techniques ,the rest are just hiding behind the Harvest banner ,most just do not have the skill or patience to become a real angler and this makes them feel like one.To those that do practice snagging ,and have some fishing skills (guys like Parker),shame on you ,you are the ones that really make this atrocity spread.
It's like cheating at golf ,whats the point.
To those that practice this form of poaching ,answer me this ,what difference does it make wether you snag a wild steelhead or a hatchery coho or sockeye ,if you snag one ,then snag em all,and how in the world do you selectively fish this way ,love to hear the answer to that one.
If you are a person who screams about native fishing practices ,then heads out flossing ,you are no better than an FN poacher,they hide under the guise of food as well.

WOW! Hadn't heard of that one.... but it sure seems to make sense.

If you violate the belly cavity in a human without using sterile technique, it will quickly result in peritonitis, an infection of the lining of the belly and visceral organs.... BAD NEWS. For a woman, that might mean permanent sterility (it's OK guys, fortunately yours are protected in a little sac outside the belly cavity).

I realize fish are a little hardier than we frail humans, but still, I can see how permanent damage can be done to a salmonid's sex organs if you pierce the belly wall with a big enough hole to create a free portal between its innards and the outside world.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Well,
Just to play devils advocate, Lining or "flossing"
generally results in a hook embedded in the outside edge of the fish's mouth.
Very, very rarley if ever does a fish get hooked in the gut or in the gills.
If you fish a "0 Zero Limit" river with bait or flies aren't you much more likley to terminally harm a native fish?????

Okay, this may sound naive, but would someone please precisely define flossing?

I saw the Snohomish coho fishing mentioned earlier as a floss fest. I fished that for the first time last year and caught 4 fish using about a 4 ft leader and dick nites. All the fish were hooked on the inside of the mouth and hit the lure hard. I never jerked the rod, but kept a constant retrieve. Did I floss? I don't think so.

A precise definition would help me prevent unintentional snagging on my part and recognize when others are doing it.

From what I understand, "flossing" is defined as pulling long leaders through many fish hoping the line will go through their open mouths and hook the fish in a legal looking way.

Any better definitions or determining characteristics?

--Bank Angler

Flossing can be done with or without the "rip" that is used by blatant snaggers.

Rip or no rip, if the fish didn't voluntarily take the offering, it was flossed.

Any fishing method that places the leader in an attitude that is broadside to the current can result in a flossed fish, intentional or not.

Todd,
Since I own a yellow sled and do not know of any others that regulary the Snohomish I will assume that your comments are directed at me.

Nine foot leaders?

Dick Nite fishing is one of the most effective ways of fishing the Snohomish for Coho.

Let me ask you this.
Why does the color of the spoon make such a big difference when the bite is on? If I was flossing it wouldn't matter would it?

If I were flossing why would I use a $1.79 spoon when I could be doing just as well with a .05 cent hook and a piece of yarn to leave on the bottom of the river instead?

To bad for you and your comments. You and the W.S.C always seemed to like me and Threee Rivers Marine when we were giving out donations for your club.

OK...I think we beat this topic to death. I sure did my share. Before you all think I am a die-hard bead fisherman, the majority of my fishing is from my drift boat pulling plugs and side drifting. Bead fishing makes up a small percentage. I just get tired of all of the energy spent debating this issue when there are much more pressing issues threatening our fisheries...

Salmonella - maybe I'll see you on the Feather in a couple of months...Flossers Unite!!!