What is your opinion, and why?

Remember that rifles such as the Kentucky, Sharps, K98 Mauser, 1903 Springfield (Mauser copy), SKS, AK variants,M1, M-16/AR-15, AR-10, FN-FAL and many others started their life as military firearms.

(Rather than hijack another thread, I thought that I'd start my own.)

my dad and i both use enfield 303's. mine is sporteried but his is still just like they were made.

I know of many people who use the 7.62x39mm round for deer, bobcats varmints etc. And .223 is one of the most popular varmint rounds there is.

Dont forget that the .30-06 was developed as a military round and it's Soviet counterpart, the 7.62x54R, is used just as widely for hunting in Siberia as the 'Aught Six' is used in the U.S., often in WWII era Mosin-Nagant 91/30's or M38's which are one of the most accurate rifles ever made (See: Stalingrad & Vasili Zaitsev). The problem most people have with military arms is thier excessive weight, and that's why most are 'sporterized' (Known as Bubba-ized in the gun collecting community) by shortening the barrel, replacing the wood for plastic, and tapping scope-mount holes in the receiver. This completely destroys the gun's value, but if you dont give a rat's ass and just want to have something to kill Bambi with, go ahead.

In my honest opinion, an AK-47 fitted with a 4x scope, a longer stock, and with the legal capacity magazine, would make a kick-ass brush gun for anything deer-sized and smaller. Plus, if you dropped it off a cliff, the cost of replacement would be less than the cost of repair on something like a Weatherby or Beretta.

Definitley agree with the weight issue Irie. I realy dont think the rifle is the issue so much as the projectile. I think military ammo is good for getting coyote pelts or dusting rodents but not for hunting deer.

I took my first deer with a 1903 Springfield, second with an M1 Garand (that is a heavy rifle), somewhere between 3 and 10 I took deer with my SKS, an M1A in 7.62x51, and my Enfield No. 2 also in 7.62x51 (.308).

I'm having an upper built for my AR-15 in .458 SOCOM. Short squatty little round with ballistics a lot like the .45-70, with the abilitly to push a 300g bullet out at 1900-2100 FPS.

Here's what they look like.



As soon as I get some brass and other components I'll load a few and show what they look like compared to a .223 Rem.

I also would like an upper in the new 6.8SPC of 6.5 Grendel, and a .25 WSSM to go along with my match grade .223 flat-top and my 5.56x45 HBAR A2 uppers.

Remember how the T/C Encore revolutionized the multi caliber handgun? Well, the AR-15's modular design allows this, but in a semi auto platform. There are also lots of options in relation to stock, magazines, handguards, and such, but instead of having to go to just one or two companies, there are literally hundreds of companies who cater to the AR market.

I took my first 5 deer with an old 1903 30-06 that had been sporterized. I still kick myself for getting rid of it. I think they are very suitable ( and fun to shoot).

Zumbo had no clue how big the following was for military sporting arms when he wrote his blog singling out a specific type of rifle based on how it looked, not how it operated. He himself admitted that he was living in a vacuum, not knowing that there was a big following for fans of the AR and AK platforms who hunted with them.

The guy was a writer, a spokesman for the gun industry, and a hunter, yet he called for a ban on the use of certain guns just because of how they look. What a boob.

In case somebody wants to refute that fact that he "was" a spokesman for the firearms industry, he worked for Remington on a contract basis, Remington is a firearms manufacturer, and their largest selling centerfire ammunition, by caliber, is the .223 Remington. This cartidge is the "downloaded" version of the 5.56mmx45mm miltary cartridge that is used in the M16, M4, CAR15, and SAW that our folks in the armed forces are using overseas.

Here is what he wrote.

As I write this, I'm hunting coyotes in southeastern Wyoming with Eddie Stevenson, PR Manager for Remington Arms, Greg Dennison, who is senior research engineer for Remington, and several writers. We're testing Remington's brand new .17 cal Spitfire bullet on coyotes.

I must be living in a vacuum. The guides on our hunt tell me that the use of AR and AK rifles have a rapidly growing following among hunters, especially prairie dog hunters. I had no clue. Only once in my life have I ever seen anyone using one of these firearms.

I call them "assault" rifles, which may upset some people. Excuse me, maybe I'm a traditionalist, but I see no place for these weapons among our hunting fraternity. I'll go so far as to call them "terrorist" rifles. They tell me that some companies are producing assault rifles that are "tackdrivers."

Sorry, folks, in my humble opinion, these things have no place in hunting. We don't need to be lumped into the group of people who terrorize the world with them, which is an obvious concern. I've always been comfortable with the statement that hunters don't use assault rifles. We've always been proud of our "sporting firearms."

This really has me concerned. As hunters, we don't need the image of walking around the woods carrying one of these weapons. To most of the public, an assault rifle is a terrifying thing. Let's divorce ourselves from them. I say game departments should ban them from the praries and woods.

After about 7500 replies to this and his apology, this is what his former employer wrote.

Madison, North Carolina – As a result of comments made by Mr. Jim Zumbo in recent postings on his blog site, Remington Arms Company, Inc., has severed all sponsorship ties with Mr. Zumbo effective immediately. While Mr. Zumbo is entitled to his opinions and has the constitutional right to freely express those opinions, these comments are solely his, and do not reflect the views of Remington.

“Remington has spent tens of millions of dollars defending our Second Amendment rights to privately own and possess firearms and we will continue to vigorously fight to protect these rights,” commented Tommy Millner, Remington’s CEO and President. “As hunters and shooters of all interest levels, we should strive to utilize this unfortunate occurrence to unite as a whole in support of our Second Amendment rights.”

We regret having to terminate our long-standing relationship with Mr. Zumbo, who is a well-respected writer and life-long hunter.

I must say that Chester Allen, a local outdoor writer for The Daily Olympian, presented a fair and balanced reponse to his article about the demise of Jim Zumbo. Many of the folks whom he quoted have the same values as myself. Chester's article can be read here: Chester's article

We need to stick together folks. A firearm is a tool, regardless of what it is made of, or how it looks. Zumbo certainly has learned that lesson, hopefully others will not have to do the same.

Can you imagine someone saying the same thing about a timeless classic like the 1903, K98, or other sporting arms with military roots? The AK and AR platforms have been around since the late 40's and early 60's, respectively, so I guess they are also classics, in their own way.

I don't know if a guy would feel like a douchbag out hunting with an AR 15 but he sure would look like one.. Compairing 30.06 to 5.56 is about as stupid as this post in general. AK'S SKS, AR'S are for for plinking nothing more. All are way under powered for big game. A guy who would be out hunting with a AK 47 would also probably have a Glock in a shoulder holster, a .380 in his boot, 3 other guns in his truck and all the dirty Harry movies on DVD. Manditory life member of the NRA.

B-RUN

You forgot the 10" bowie knife on belt, dew rag, camo face paint, and the bayonet ready to go.

I met that guy once

I voted No. Today's military weapons are much more suited for their intended purpose than hunting. I'd prefer they be used for plinking and varmits. No big game hunting with them! Bill

So, according to you "No" voters, .30 caliber cartridges (.308, .30-06, etc) are only suitable cartridges when it's used in a bolt action??

How 'bout out lawing evil terrorist bolt action "sniper rifles" and only allow muzzle loaders that existed during the 1770's? Oh wait, some of those are .50 caliber!! Terrorist weapons according to the California state legislature!

Good grief!

If you were looking at just the .223, I'd agree with you that it isn't a suitable caliber for deer. However, the .223 is great for coyotes, and the AR platform allows for over 20 different chambers from the .22 LR to calibers that match or exceed the .45-70.

A rifle is a rifle.

The .223 Remington can be very effective on deer and other similar sized game. I have killed deer and bear with my .223 Ackley by using Barnes X Bullets, and Barnes TripleShock Bullets, when using these quality projectiles and a muzzle velocity well above 3000 fps there is no reason for anyone to tell me I am under gunned...

At present I do not own any military or assault weapons, but I have in the past, and I will again I'm sure, I don't see how anyone can complain if I want to use a military type rifle to kill game with, as long as I am within the law and common sense ( using proper hunting ammo, and accurate rifle).

There is too much of this crap where people want to dictate what other people can do when there is no logical reason for it..........


IF you guys want to pass a law requiring a certain level of accuracy/ proficientcy with a rifle before attaining a hunting license, maybe I could get onboard........................

What I do know is that guys who want to engage in really long draw out coversations about " Guns, Bullets, ballistics, gun laws, gun politics, how wrong it is that they can't get tracer ammo, how stupid it is that they can't hunt with a .50 BMG or a 30 round clip " are without a doubt the most boring SOB's you will ever come across. " How's it going Dave " " Great, I just worked up a new load for my 227.3000 Brinkermeyer and I gotta tell ya, its everything the old .1500-3200 ever was which you will recall was a Pet load of Hank Hammermiller back in 1972. Its got way more frontal density and is 30 feet per second faster than the 450 whapsnapper which was of course outlawed by the stinking liberals and soccer moms who ain't smart enough to join the NRA "... Yada Yada Yada... F%CKING SPARE ME.

Its been my personell experiance that gun guys and guys who hunt or not the same type of person. A gun guy is a fat SOB who seldom goes hunting but can tell you all about it all day. A hunting guy will talk about hunting, and never even mention what type of gun he was using.. because it really don't matter.

Why do I care so much about this type of post. Easy.. As a Hunter I feel the biggest threat to my right to own fire arms is in fact the small fanatical group of Dickweed " Gun Guys" who bitch and whine about stupid gun stuff that has nothing to do with hunting, or in anyway represent the vast majority of gun owners in the USA.

Getting personal, huh? Why don't we try to keep this civil.

I'm neither fat, nor unsuccessful as a hunter. I might be an SOB. As a matter of fact in the last 5 years, all of my deer have been taken with a muzzleloader.

Lots of folks who own these types of firearms are either current or past military or law enforcement. They also aren't cheap, but they are inherintly accurate.

B-Run, the second ammendment was never about hunting. I think that you need to wake up, because if you think that giving the Brady Bunch just one type of gun that they can ban, and that they will be satisfied, you are sadly mistaken.

First they'll try to ban guns based on how they look. Then they'll ban all semi-autos and pumps. Then anything that carries multiple rounds, then single shots, and finally muzzle loaders. It is called "divide and conquer".

We need you on our side, because if you aren't, you'll allow Rosie O'Donnel and her type to have there way, all while they are being protected by armed body guards. I don't want to live in Rosie's world.

Hopefully your names not Dave ???

I can't agree with ya, and actually most people don't. I can narrow it down for you a little more. The NRA ( and I'm almost positive that you are a member ) is a " for profit " organization that plays on gun owners fears in an effort to raise money. I get the most astounding e-mails that make the most outlandish claims always accompanied by an URGENT !! request to send MONEY. I view them as damaging to the avg American sportsman as PETA.. Same thought process on the other side of the coin.

They don't speak for me, and I WISH THEY WOULD STOP saying that they do. ( Speaking of muzzle loaders.. we just spent a bunch of time and effort to get inlines taken OFF the list of weapons that can be used in a muzzle loader hunt.. had gotten way out of hand and away from the intent of the "primitive" firearms seasons and draws that they were intended for )

I worry more about guys that continually use hunting as a smoke screen to allow stupid stuff like .50 cal scoped rifles on and on and on.. than I will ever worry about Rosie.

Not an NRA member, I'm Andy, not Dave. Don't agree with their "Jack booted thug" mentality or scare tactics, either. I'm not even a fan of .50 cal rifles, (except muzzle loaders), but I don't campaign against them. If they choose to use them, good for them, I don't.

Remember, Rosie thinks it is all stupid, except for her body guards.

P.S. now that you got rid of the inlines, shouldn't you go for the compound bow?

No, but are working on the sights that can be used.

Your right, I do lump gun guys in a pile because there are a core group of them that just wear my ass out. Mr " Guns and Ammo " that gravitates to you at lunch time because he knows you hunt therfore must be willing to be subjected endless banter about useless crap.. and is creepier than the "perps" he wishes he could shoot. Its wrong and I admit it. Guys who are all wound up about why they can't use a 30 round clip out hunting are "gun show goofs".

I'm just a sportsman thats hunted all his life. I don't want these guys representing me or my sport in any way.

I agree that the "Gun Nuts" wear my ass out as well. It's the reason why I cancelled my NRA membership last fall. (That and they are a wholly owned fund-raising subsidary of the RNC.) The type I refer to are the gun show goofs--the ones who wear full camo BDU's to gunshows and hang around the book table where literary classics such as The Turner Diaries, The International Jew, and Mein Kampf can be found displayed prominently under a 3'x5' confederate flag.

However just because a group of total douchebags wants to play with Machineguns is no reason to go around banning the damned things. Lock up the douchebags, not thier toys.

A .308 is still a .308 no matter what you shoot it out of.