Damn Stam--you hit the nail on the HEAD.

I wonder what they say about you.

Lemme venture a guess.

"He's a yuppie fly-flinger" Truth is, he's a known bait thug, and wears Converse All-Stars.

"He's one of them city slickers". Truth is, he's from Enumclaw.

"He's a bunny-huggin' granola-eater." Again. He's from Enumclaw, so maybe he does "hug" bunnies, but I don't think he eats granola.

Close?

Thats why your views on this issue will not go anywhere but this board. Both sides of this issue are too stuborn to listen to each other and find common ground. Have fun fighting about it. There nothing to worry about over here, nobody but the tribes can kill a adipose bearer in our drainages.

Ok that’s it. I wrote a 4 ½ page paper on why I believe that it is ok for people to harvest wild steelhead. However I chose not to present the entire thing to every one. if you want to read it just ask and I will email it to you. There are however a few points that I need to bring up.

I would like to take a minute to respond to a few comments made earlier on in this post. One was in regards of someone talking about the release of hatchery fish. In my own opinion and I speak only for my self when I say WTF?!?! I cannot count the total number of spawned out hatchery fish that I have caught in the rivers in my life. However, this year (since early January) alone I have landed 4 hatchery fish, 3 of which had already spawned in the river. I do not know if it has just been my luck or what, but to me this is an alarmingly high percentage. As for the comment about “As long as it’s legal, people are going to kill them.” Again I say WTF!! And I will explain why later when I get in to netting seasons and how they have been extended since the moratorium began 3 years ago, but for now, it is up to you as individuals not the regulations. If some one is going to keep a fish or not I doubt that the “Law Enforcement” has much to do with it. I fish on a regular basis and so far on the rivers I have seen enforcement once, about three years ago on the bogie.

Next was a comment regarding the mortality rate of fish in a C&R fishery. True that the percentage of fish that die is IF done correctly, is relatively low, however, many of the pictures that I see on-line of these fish that everyone catches and are then released so called unharmed is crap. I see people take these fish out of the water for extended periods of time after ether stressing them out so bad that they are finally able to tail them or land them in a net that is almost as harmful as the tribal nets to the fish, only to then man handle the fish and take measurement and pictures to show all of their friends while these fish are under so much stress, that there is a much much higher percentage of mortality than just 3-5%

Behind the comment about “not another BIG FISH killed”, there is a story about the BIG FISH. Personally I would rather a BIG steelhead buck harvested then an 8-12lb steelhead. Most people think that this logic does not make any scenes, but think for a moment about the life cycle of a steelhead. Steelhead, unlike salmon have the unique ability to spawn more then just one time in their life. In fact those “BIG” steelhead that some of you may catch or at least hook into have likely spawned and contributed on their genetics to the gene pool AT LEAST 3 times during its life. If you look at it in a manager’s eye, it is not much different than a 3-point minimum that is required in may areas for deer hunting. The idea is that those older more mature bucks have already passed their genetics on into the gene pool and if you are fortunate enough to find one you are legally allowed to harvest it.

Just for your information, I also release many of the fish that I do catch without pictures, or without any proof of the size or that I actually caught any fish at all because honestly I do not want to harm the fish if I am not going to keep it and I do not care about what others think of my fishing skills. I know what I catch and what I don't catch and I do not care about weather or not some random fisherman believe me or not. I am not trying to prove my self to any one else especially to any of you fishermen out there who want to judge me because I harvested a fish. In fact, the more of you that believe that I do not know how to fish, the better in my mind. I have no problem launching my boat well behind all of the guides and all of the other people that go fishing at the ass crack of dawn. And believe it or not I catch many of the fish that you all leave behind.

All I really want to get across is that I do not judge you for releasing your fish, it is your right to do so, and I actually applaud you for it. It is obvious that we all care about our remaining resources and want them to flourish. But do not pat yourselves on the back and assume that you are better that those who chose to keep a couple of fish each year.

Thank you for your time and this is my final post on this thread.

I see one major flaw in your post, and that is about the fish spawning three or more times by the time they are that large. While that may be true of hens, I believe it's been found that a majority of male steelhead die after the rigors of spawning, and most do not get the chance to flush back to sea for another go round. That in and of itself would disprove your statement.

Another thing to bear in mind, (and I don't mind fishing behind others either.. I catch a LOT of fish behind everyone else..) is that fish are on the move. There are a lot of fish that just don't get targeted in the "in-between holes traveling water" and see absolutely no pressure until your the one that intercepts them in a hole.

In recent years, I've also personally witnessed a larger majority of the pictures, and fish caught, to be treated much more friendly and take off with little to no reviving. Most of the fish I catch shoot off like a rocket.. Some before I have a chance to actually snap a pic of it laying in the water at my feet. People are learning how to treat these fish when it comes to C&R.. It might be a slow learning curve, but I do believe it's working...

In all reality, I ask once again, Whats so wrong about releasing a fish? It's a win win situation, if you are going to catch the thing, the fish is given maximum opportunity to SURVIVE, rather than to ensure its demise.

That's where I don't understand how there is an argument against releasing them, and bonking them. There is absolutely NO POSITIVE IMPACT whatsoever in killing them. There really is no argument with that statement...

i really should give up arguing on the internet. i end up looking like a total idiot, because i wander from my points.

my take on this all is one of stone-cold conservation. no fuzzy feelings, no morality or anything. i haven't fished for natives in over 10 years. i've caught them incidentally, but generally not on purpose, as i like to eat what i catch. obviously i put my effort toward hatchery fish.

the thing that irritates me is the mentality that it's just fine to CNR natives all day and accept say, a 5% mortality rate, but kill one intentionally and it becomes morally reprehensible, akin to whacking one of your fellow fishermen over the head. it'd seem more appropriate to either stop fishing(supporting the belief that it's a sin to risk kill any wild fish), or accept that others would like to bring one home.

it's a slippery slope, of course releasing fish has more of a potential for positive impact than killing them, but not fishing at all has more of a positive impact than risking mortality, right?

my other issue is with the permanant regulations many propose. steelhead are like any other fish in the regard to harvest and conservation. enough fish that harvest won't hurt the run? fine, open the season and allow harvest. not enough fish to meet spawning requirements? shut it down. simple as that.

Is it not time to learn something from the Quinalt System. We need to fire the WDFG and turn over our hatcheries to the tribes to be managed like the Quinalt System.

The sportsman need to remove their heads fron their anal cavity when it comes to this "wild verus native issue".

Is it not time to learn something from the Quinalt System. We need to fire the WDFG and turn over our hatcheries to the tribes to be managed like the Quinalt System.

The sportsman need to remove their heads fron their anal cavity when it comes to this "wild verus native issue".

Well, I'm on my way out to see if we might be able to let a few go.

I have a little advice for you DA. While we have all made mistakes in our arugments in our lifetime ... what you have posted here is so far from what is true and proven, you will have a hard time getting very far with your avenue of arguement, sorry

The Quinault is perhaps one of the most messed up steelhead watersheds in their entire range when it comes to wild fish, no thanks

Trying to outsmart Ma Nature and force steelhead to be something they weren't meant to be is not the answer!

i am better than you, becuase i do not break the law.....how many nates do you bonk then 3? 4?

No, it is absolutely 100% not time to take any lessons from the Quinaults...they have f*&ked up the genetics of the native fish in that river bad...really bad.

DA, a couple of things about the "already spawned" topic...bucks, statistically, return for a second spawning run "zero" times...yeah, it happens, but it is incredibly rare. They typically stay in the river and literally spawn themselves to death.

The hens, on the other hand, come up, drop their eggs, and head out.

The average return rate for repeat spawners is 12 or 12.5 percent...and statistically speaking, they are all hens.

The second point is the "size" issue...repeat spawners do not get any bigger on their second run. If you see a 25# buck in the river, it is 99% that it is a five year old fish that is on its first spawning run.

If a hen weighs twelve pounds when entering the river on her first spawning run, she will probably weigh about nine pounds, give or take, after using so much energy to make eggs and spawn...if she is one of the lucky 12.5% that gets to do it again, she will spend the entire 10 months or so she is back out in the salt re-gaining the three pounds she lost.

If she's any bigger on the second run, it will only be by ounces.

That being said, hens on their second spawning run can produce a lot more eggs than hens of the same size on their first spawning run...even though repeat spawners make up only 12.5% of the spawning population, they can contribute up to 25% of the entire egg production for the run.

Of course, you can't tell if the 14 pound hen you just landed is on its first or second run...so you can't tell if you are intentionally removing 3,000 or 4,200 eggs from the stock...either way, it's too many.

If you really, really need to kill a wild steelhead, for whatever reason, bonk a post-spawn buck. They've already spawned, aren't likely to spawn again, and don't taste a whole lot worse than a fresh winter run...

It'll smoke up fine!

Fish on...

Todd

Well put Todd, but one point that should be made as well is that when downstream spawners are caught in the tribal gillnets they are thrown up on the bank because they are not suitable for sale ,making the return of spawmning females that much more unlikely.-T

That's a good point, TBJ. I wonder if any studies have been done, or numbers taken, to show how many fish caught in the tribal nets (on a given river system) are downstream kelts.

I'd be curious to know.

My point was that maybe the C&R guys should take an activist stand with the views of the bonkers in mind. Or on the other hand the bonkers should take an activist stand with the feelings of the C&R guys in mind. I dont like it that sportsmen have to argue about what they kill or what they dont. Its the nets that are strung accross the river and dragged through the ocean that are the problem. We all need to take a stand on that issue.

We are not allowed to take "wild steelhead" up here so I do my best to take care of the natives that I catch. If they said we could take one a season I might take one or I might not. I havent had to deal with that scenario yet.

This "CnR" advocate works on all 5 of the H's...habitat, hydro, harvest, hatcheries, and the umbrella issue of "history"...but the "activist bonkers" tend to focus completely on the "harvest" issue...blaming it on the tribes, and being very protective of their own "right" to bonk...and tend to not be very receptive to conversations regarding any of the other H's, with the exception of "hatcheries", which they tend to think are the end all, be all, to save fish.

They tell me that I need to stop putting all my energy into taking their rights away to bonk, which I don't even work on at all, to be honest with you...and when I point out the things that I actually do work on, specifically the LCR gillnet fisheries, the conversation ends...and then a month later starts up again, and I am told once again to stop focusing on their "right" to bonk, and then they blame it on the tribes...again.

It's a never-ending, always repeating cycle that locks out conversation on everything but bonkers vs. CnR...which in and of itself is funny, because it's not about CnR at all, it's about WSR, which is "wild steelhead release", not "catch and release"...I bonk more fish than almost all the "bonkers" I know, and I do it every year...I just limit my bonking to hatchery steelhead, hatchery salmon, and on a few wild salmon runs that are numbering in the hundreds of thousands.

Point that out, and predictably...the conversation ends, again...and then a month later, right back to "their right to bonk"...again.

If you can somehow get all the "bonker advocates" to look beyond their own bonking stick and tribal nets, then I'll be happy to talk with them, too...but I haven't had much luck with it in the past, except for some very exceptional folks, who unfortunately number less than five total.

Fish on...

Todd

After running over 30 trips on the WS this year on the OP I ended up killing 6 fish 3 were bleeding bad (sidedrifting bait on all 3 and definitely going to die) 3 that were just small rats that I like to take out of the gene pool personelly! I for one appreciate the fact that it is a option for these reasons and after a great run of WS this year I figured 10% of the possible kill showing compared to some of the guide's I saw bonking fish daily is not bad, gives me a deep respect for TRBO promoting zero tolerance for killing WS my hat is off to you TRBO!!!PEACE

does your sidedrifting rig consist of the typical double sz 6 barbed octopus hooks???? if it does, there is even more proof that that rig needs to be banned. a double barbed hook rig undoubtly increases mortality over a single barbed and ofcourse a single barbless setup.

secondly, it isnt good to play God. that 24" wild hen you killed may have contributed just as much to the population as a 40" wild buck that was cracked over the head. let em all go......