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#375720 - 09/19/07 03:02 PM Re: Hook Testing, ideas [Re: B-RUN STEELY]
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 16958
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
I got somethin' you can test for hardness and penetration riiiiiiiight here.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

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#375722 - 09/19/07 03:12 PM Re: Hook Testing, ideas [Re: Dan S.]
Sol Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 7477
Loc: Poulsbo
Classic.

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#375725 - 09/19/07 03:24 PM Re: Hook Testing, ideas [Re: DiverX]
B-RUN STEELY Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 02/08/00
Posts: 3233
Loc: IDAHO
 Originally Posted By: DiverX
 Originally Posted By: Sol
Do you guys want to talk about Young's modulus and the stress/strain relationship for isotropic materials?

Talk about scared for life.


My strength of materials is rusty, but I can roll with ya, Sol.

We can break out the bending moments of inertia and start writing out the equations for bending while we're at it. ;\)


Well, in the end you would need Duk Yong Kim ( phd, went to school for 3 more years than you dId and had a 4.0 GPA , never partied, has zero sense of humor and drives a Honda Accord even though he makes 120,000 a year) double check your work..

However, Edward Demming is a God to me.


Edited by B-RUN STEELY (09/19/07 03:30 PM)
_________________________
Clearwater/Salmon Super Freak

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#375729 - 09/19/07 03:38 PM Re: Hook Testing, ideas [Re: DiverX]
wntrrn Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 2562
Loc: Edmonds
 Originally Posted By: DiverX
Close, Sol.

A hook almost never hits a fish perpendicular to the axis of the hook point. The cutting edge of the Owners uses the force not in the direction of penetration to cut the fish and help the hook get to the point where the fish is pulling against the bend.

Here is a picture to help explain.



F is the overall hooksetting force. It can only be in the direction of the line connected to it as the line has no stiffness.

Fp is the penetrating force to which Sol refers.
FN is the force perpendicular to the penetrating force.

Since force has a magnitude and direction, FN > zero if F is not in the same direction as FP. A cutting hooks uses FN to cut into the fish. For a conical hook, FN just translates into resistance to hook penetration in the form of friction.

Any questions?


Diver, had this conversation come up while we were fishing this summer only one of us would have made it back to the dock. ;\)
_________________________
I swung, therefore, I was

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#375732 - 09/19/07 03:41 PM Re: Hook Testing, ideas [Re: wntrrn]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12616
Hey, at least the dude (DiverX) is bang on with his grasp of the physics behind this issue.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#375734 - 09/19/07 03:56 PM Re: Hook Testing, ideas [Re: wntrrn]
DiverX Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 428
Loc: Renton
 Originally Posted By: wntrrn
Diver, had this conversation come up while we were fishing this summer only one of us would have made it back to the dock. ;\)


That hurts my feelings. Here's the equation that shows how my feeling are hurt...
_________________________
When at first you don't succeed, blame your parents and accept defeat...

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#375736 - 09/19/07 04:09 PM Re: Hook Testing, ideas [Re: DiverX]
One Way Offline
Call me Sir

Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 1321
Loc: San Rafael, Ca. & Whidbey Isla...
Time for this thread to evaporate.

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#375737 - 09/19/07 04:10 PM Re: Hook Testing, ideas [Re: DiverX]
Sol Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 7477
Loc: Poulsbo
Fp=Fcos(theta) \:\)

Please, God, make it stop.

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#375744 - 09/19/07 04:49 PM Re: Hook Testing, ideas [Re: ]
Jason Y Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 1309
Loc: Poulsbo
 Originally Posted By: AuntyM
I've had lots of vision hooks bend out on me. Gami's too. I think it has something to do with trees being stronger than the hook.



Or the friquin granite grouper refusing to budge. That will straighten even a OWNER.

_________________________
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http://www.madrivermanufacturing.com/swstore1.htm

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#375748 - 09/19/07 05:06 PM Re: Hook Testing, ideas [Re: ]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12616
 Originally Posted By: stam
Now that we've decided that the cutting point hooks cut in easier, we can move on to the fact that they are also cutting all the time you are playing that fish until it finally cuts loose.



Seems to me this Owner cutting point didn't "cut loose" on ya, stam.



click here if pic does not display
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#375754 - 09/19/07 05:44 PM Re: Hook Testing, ideas [Re: ]
Sol Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 7477
Loc: Poulsbo
It helps if you don't rip a vagina sized hole when you set the hook young man.

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#375761 - 09/19/07 06:05 PM Re: Hook Testing, ideas [Re: ]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12616
 Originally Posted By: stam

Since you put it that way...hmmmmm, the next time I look at that ripped out hole in a fish's lip I just may get aroused ;\)


Must be somethin' in that Enumclaw water that stimulates animal attraction.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#375762 - 09/19/07 06:07 PM Re: Hook Testing, ideas [Re: eyeFISH]
wntrrn Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 2562
Loc: Edmonds
 Originally Posted By: fishNphysician
 Originally Posted By: stam

Since you put it that way...hmmmmm, the next time I look at that ripped out hole in a fish's lip I just may get aroused ;\)


Must be somethin' in that Enumclaw water that stimulates animal attraction.


FNP, you just beat a bunch of us to that one..
_________________________
I swung, therefore, I was

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#375763 - 09/19/07 06:09 PM Re: Hook Testing, ideas [Re: wntrrn]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12616
 Originally Posted By: wntrrn
 Originally Posted By: fishNphysician


Must be somethin' in that Enumclaw water that stimulates animal attraction.


FNP, you just beat a bunch of us to that one..


Just barely....
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#375767 - 09/19/07 06:22 PM Re: Hook Testing, ideas [Re: Sol]
stever in everett Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/17/99
Posts: 774
Loc: Everett, WA USA
Speaking from 45 years of fishing experience here the cost of the hook shouldn't matter when you are fishing just as the cost of the booze shouldn't matter when you are drinking. Buy the best you can afford of both. On a bad day of fishing and you hang up a lot you might be out $20 on hooks for a chance to catch a fish. Are you going to save $10 and risk not landing a fish due to cheap tackel? If you are fishing springers and you loose a fish due to a bad hook was it worth the money you saved? The cost of your tackel is usually little compared to everything else. Personal testing done while fishing puts Owner Cutting point at the top followed by Gamis in octopus style hooks. Gamis 510 are on all my plugs and most of my jigs are on Ganmi 2X. Vince have at it but I'll still use what I am using until something better comes along.
_________________________
"Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there." Will Rogers

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#375770 - 09/19/07 06:29 PM Re: Hook Testing, ideas [Re: Sol]
VHawk. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2744
 Originally Posted By: Sol
Thicker wire means bigger cross-sectional area, Vince, which minimizes the pressure and reduces penitration. Same reason it's easier to set a barbless hook over one with a barb. As the hook penitrates the area breaking the surface increases. You can read this shi% and still not understand the dynamics of what is happening. Think about it.


I wasn't clear when I wrote "Wouldn't a hook perform better, i.e. have superior penetration AND maintain the integrity of the hook bend (not open up) if the wire diameter would thicken where the stress is greatest during the fight? "

What I was asking was if the wire was of different diameter at different points, would it help the solve the problem of balancing penetration versus hook strength. The area of a hook bend where the deformation occurs seems to be far enough up the bend (say about midpoint of the hook bend, up to where it meets the shank) that any additional thickness shouldn't interfere with penetration.

I was following the discussion just fine. I just wanted to restate my question so it was clear.

I'm glad that not every thread gets as nasty as this one. The wife won't post on here because she's afraid to ask questions and then have someone call her stupid for asking. As it goes, my skin is not much thicker than hers.

VHawk

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#375771 - 09/19/07 06:36 PM Re: Hook Testing, ideas [Re: VHawk.]
Sky-Guy Offline
The Tide changed

Registered: 08/31/00
Posts: 7083
Loc: Everett
 Originally Posted By: VHawk
The wife won't post on here because she's afraid to ask questions and then have someone call her stupid for asking. As it goes, my skin is not much thicker than hers.

VHawk


I can't recall her ever aksing a question and someone calling her stupid?
I think if you ask stupid questions, expect stupid responses.
If you ask good questions, expect good responses, and at least a couple stupid ones, at least here anyways \:\) That's the internet for ya....
I'd rather test the knowledge here over any other site, anyday.
_________________________
You know something bad is going to happen when you hear..."Hey, hold my beer and watch this"

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#375773 - 09/19/07 06:36 PM Re: Hook Testing, ideas [Re: VHawk.]
B-RUN STEELY Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 02/08/00
Posts: 3233
Loc: IDAHO
Vince, you got skin like an Alligator. Never say otherwise. The vast majority of this B.S is just funnin ya, some food for thought is included along the way.
_________________________
Clearwater/Salmon Super Freak

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#375776 - 09/19/07 06:52 PM Re: Hook Testing, ideas [Re: B-RUN STEELY]
Sol Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 7477
Loc: Poulsbo
I wasn't rippin' on ya, Vince. I sat though many a class over at the UW thinking I knew what the prof was scratching on the chalk board only to find out at test time I had no fuc%ing idea what he was talking about. That's what I ment.

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#375795 - 09/19/07 08:08 PM Re: Hook Testing, ideas [Re: Sol]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27838
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
"What I was asking was if the wire was of different diameter at different points, would it help the solve the problem of balancing penetration versus hook strength. The area of a hook bend where the deformation occurs seems to be far enough up the bend (say about midpoint of the hook bend, up to where it meets the shank) that any additional thickness shouldn't interfere with penetration."

It might not interfere with the penetration, but it would surely just move the "weakest part" of the hook to another location...not remove it...

For instance, if the weakest point is on the bend of the hook, it may deform quite a bit before failing...if you remove that weak point, making say, the point the weakest link, it may actually fail sooner than if there were a weaker point on the bend.

Perhaps this is too obvious, but at what pounds of pull the hook fails at may not be nearly as important as where it finally fails...a flexing or bending hook bend may actually work to keep a fish hooked, whereas a stiff bend may actually cause the failure somewhere else on the hook...again, too many variables to test in the lab, IMHO.

Fish on...

Todd
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Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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