Vince,
I would appreciate any testing you can do on hook strengh, etc. I used the results of your line testing in Alaska a month ago and was pleased.

Keep up the good work!!

ClearCreek

With all due respect V-Hawk,

In more than 30 years of steelhead/salmon fishing I can't remember losing a fish to a broken or straightened hook so I guess I am having trouble understanding why you would do the test also. From my experience, any appropriately sized hook made by eagle claw, gami, mustad, and vmc, coupled with a properly set drag will land fish.

Have fun!

RM

Vince, I appreciate your passion for fishing. Obviously, some brands of hooks are pretty good and some are not as good. Most have already been named. If you are going to test hook strengths, I am looking forward to your post with the results.

I,m looking forward to see how those Gami compare........are they worth the price of $21.99 a box? Let us know Vince!

OMFG, this is some great stuff here, folks.........we've got a real genius on our hands here. I think I'm going to just start whorshipping this guy and give up any rational thinking whatsoever(insert extreme sarcasm here). Vhawk, please share some of those meds with us, so we can experience what it is like to be a genuine "know-it-all".

First of all, information is only as good as the source. If you have to ask "how", then you are not qualified to state "why". Anybody with a pliers and a half-ass grip can test hooks. Grab it, bend the hell out of it, feel the difference..........real rocket science, eh?

I'd be pretty pizzed off too if I got 2/3 of a gallon of milk that was marked 1 gal. because then I'd know that I was blind as a bat.

"Sorry, honey, I didn't realize that the milk was only 2/3 full and I was too gosh darn blind to look through the transparent container or I would have noticed. Hmmm, I'd better taste it before I return it. Yup, it's nonfat in the 2% container I tell ya......it's a conspiracy by the dairy farmers, I tell ya. I think I'm going back to the farm now and milk them cat teats, then I'll know exactly what I got".

Drinking milk is a sport? Read what you write and please write analogies that carry weight. "comparing apples to oranges".....we all know that one. Imagine the looks you would get talking about "comparing milk to hooks". Doyee factor of ten for sure!

Stop trying to be high and mighty.....well, if you are high, then that's ok, but please just stop the mighty part. Do you really need to use such big words on a fishing forum? You want something quantifiable? Ok, go away for a while and come back when you pass the MCATs, and get accepted to a "quantifiable" medical school.

I want to increase efficiency in my fishing abilities so I fish, fish and fish some more. Learn by doing, that's what I do, or do I do what I do by learning, doing what I learned all along?

Fishing tackle purchases are not based on whether you think you might be loosing some (speculated) income because of unreliable fishing gear......it's based on past experience and common sense. Certainly not based on hoity toity theories that wannabes pull out of their ass. If you buy a pack of hooks and it sucks, then don't buy them again. If you like them, continue to use them. So a hook breaks or bends, big fish lost, the "theory" behind why it happened doesn't need more than a little 30 second mental rewind, a 20 second review, and 10 more seconds of slapping your palm against your forhead saying "Doh! Doh! Doh!". Get over it, you are not a tournament fisherman, you are not a full-time guide, or in the tackle sales or manufacturing industry. If you are a weekend warrior, then it's just a fish or a fish story.....sucks, but it's not the end of the world.

No need to test hooks for sport, ok, Sport? Here is an example of potential income loss:

I've been using Trojan condoms for a long time. Broke a few, tried Lifestyles, broke them too. Thought about it for 60 seconds and then I tried Magnums and haven't broke one since. Avoided income loss with a 60 second thought. No testing, although it would have been fun to test every brand, but risky due to potential product failure because broken condoms could lead to pregnancy, pregnancey leads to child support, child support leads to decreased income, which leads to overtime, which leads to less fishing time and then I couldn't afford quality gear so I might buy somthing unreliable. Little bigger deal than a pack of potentially defective fishing hooks, right?


How about common sense? Got any? That's what I use and it didn't take long to realize that I was not buying defective condoms, I just trying to fit 1 1/3 gallons of milk in a 1 gal. jug..............now that's some quantifiable sh!t right there, ain't it?

Peace

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Personally, Vince I think you should take the time you are thinking of spending on this research. And use it to plan a bitcchen fishing trip. Just by gamis or owner hooks for the trip.
JY
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This is a rainy day project. Bitcchen fishing trips, and even chitty ones, won't be rescheduled just so I can bend open hooks. My memory isn't so bad that I've forgotten the OP can rain for week after week. Since the Republicans decided that online poker is the work of Satan, I've got to find other ways to occupy my time when it floods.

KidSauk,

I'm not advocating anything other than using the same degree of observation and record keeping that serious hunters already use.

You seem pretty angry. I reread my replies, and I'm not seeing anything that comes off as offensive. Nor did I personally attack any of the critics of the proposed project. If the subject of Vision hooks makes you this upset, maybe you should talk with a professional.

BTW, if you had tested your condoms prior to using them, you wouldn't have risked getting HIV several times over. Same as wanting to know which hook is less likely to fail, BEFORE someone loses the fish of a lifetime.

Tell Lupo I said "hi".

VHawk

I have found that brands are not always consistence in their tempering of the hooks once they are formed into hooks or when ever the hook's harness or flexibility is determined. I've had Gammies straighten out on me, e.g., size 6 hook on 12#test Vanish lost me a big fish when is went straight and let the fish off the hook. I'd think 12 Lb line should break before the hook straighten out. I've also had 3/0 Gammy loose their shape and release cohos.

"Over the years I've fished nearly all the types of hooks known to man and to this day I'll always stick with the Owner Cutting Points. "

I knew there was something I liked about Keith...ditto what he said...

The KidHawk debate is just getting rolling...where's the popcorn?

Fish on...

Todd

Go get 'em Vince!

Much like your line tests, I'll appreciate the work that went in to it and will look at the results, but will fully ignore them....because I'm confident and lazy.

I don't seem to have any problems fishing with Visions - either be it their hooks or swivels. Don't have any problems just fishing UG line, either.

I'll stick with what works for me.

I don't have much experience with the Vision hooks to make a judgement. Any comments on that brand is solely for the purposes of entertainment, and giving you a hard time. I do use their swivels, and find them for their size very reliable.

I have some preconceptions of what the study conclusions will find. They are similiar to what Todd has already stated, that varying conditions will preclude any single hook from meeting every need, or being defined as "best".



What I would like to know is exactly how much stronger one hook is versus another of the same gape size/shank length/style. Also how what the actual wire diameters are. How much strength does a thin wire hook lose versus a hook with 1x strength? What the pull strength is of the hooks in question, and will those numbers give some direction as to the appropriate strength line. As given in the example cited by Abu Loomis regarding the use of a #6 hook with 12 pound line. Lots of questions...

And finally, this thread will only get ugly if I let it. I always have the option to ignore bizzare rantings.

VHawk

anyone else sensing some defensiveness from the kid....?

...hmmm, methinks one doth protesteth too much.

Any business man that would knowingly allow inferior products onto the market does not deserve to be in business, period....and yes, the original owners acknowledged via a previous thread on this very same subject that there was a problem and they continued to supply the market with said inferior hooks.

IMO, the 'new owners' would be well served to change the name of the product line. There are a LOT of people out there that think Vision hooks are total garbage...IMO, they'd be well served to take every conceivable measure to change that perception if they ever plan on reclaiming their once formidable market share.

Word of mouth is a bitch ain't it?

My guess here Vince is that some people here know in advance what your testing will show and are trying to impune the results of those tests before you even do them. I personally hope you are able to follow through....

Eric

Agreed. Seemed a little out of character for The Kid.



Agreed. I never owned the company, so when you said "owners" above, please don't include me as one. If Joe or Justin made those acknowledgements, good for them.



Vision never had a formidable market share. While I do agree that the previous owner was not mean to be a businessman or run a business and damn near ran the company in to the ground and burned every bridge on the way out, I think over time, if the company has a good product to offer, it will survive and flourish.

If the products suck, than the company will die. They seem to be growing and doing well, so I don't think the products suck.

Most of Oregon didn't know what Visison was until now. It's becoming a very popular brand of hook/tackle brand down there. Obviously, a LOT of people are starting to use Visions, as their products do not suck.



Sometimes. I do like how you are forgetting the little part about how Vision offered to replace all the hooks you bought for any other product offered by Vision.

Good luck getting the same out of Owner or Gamikatsu (granted, I've never tried).



Really, it's probably the same people that don't care one way or the other and will continue to use the same hooks and swivels they are using now.

I'd be interested to see what Vince comes up with. Won't change my opinions of the different hooks.

Hate to say it, but MOST tackle failures are the direct result of the fisherman and their choices of terminal riggings than the tackle itself.

You flat out got screwed dude, and if I were you, I wouldn't trust Vision either.

Visions are just a part of my tackle arsenal. I use different hooks and swivels depending on what I am fishing for, where, and when.

I can attest to the tree thing

I'm with Parker on this! I guess if I only used 50 hooks a year I might change to Owner's, but at 3 times the cost it just doesn't add up for me. If the right hook is used with the right line, you will never bend one out on a fish. If they do get dull or bend out due to a hang up ,toss it and tie on a new one, pretty simple.

Vince your tests should be interesting!!

The Kid's Squawk makes me think of an old Hall and Oates song:

"You're out of touch...."
"I'm out of time!"

Abu-Loomis: " Your hook straightened because you were fishing a dinky little trout hook on 12 lb test."

The 12# test Vanish was being used as a 12" leader tied with dual (mooching style) size 6 hooks behind a gold Slim Willy with a worm as bait. I was fishing for Trout in Lake Desire. There's no reason except for a weak hook that it should straightened out.
I'll stick with Daiichi hooks for the most part and once-in-awhile I'll use Tru-turns.

VHawk -
Good luck with the testing - the results will be of some interest but I agree with Todd that hook strength is only part of the equation. Even in terms of hook strength such factors as brittleness or springness can negate over all strength. One of the worst hooks I ever used had many characteristics that one would look for in a hook but so brittle that fishiing them was an excerise in futility .

I found in terms of converting bites to fish to hand the strength of the hook ranks pretty far down the list of factors that are effecting my success rate. In the course of a year I very rarely stengthen a hook but miss lots of strikes and loss a fair number of fish. If a fine wire hook allows me to hook more fish or a hook with a more friendly fish holding shape reduces my lost rate either hook would likely out perform (in terms of fish to hand) a hook that never bends out.

As Todd points out the best "tests" for those factors are on water tests. I have too have tried a wide number of hook makes and styles usually in side by side test with a fishing partner or keeping track of "successes". As a result have developed some strong opinions on the "best" hook. The "best hook" changes quite a bit depending on the target species as well fishing method. A hook that preforms will for light line mooching may not be the best choice for heavy dute downrigger fishing.

I'm with you that have additional knowledge upon which to make gear choices is always a good thing. While the trust angler's expert opinion is always valuable sometimes our personal needs dictate a different option.

Tight lines
Curt

Ready to see the tests done on this one Vince. Piss on the "I say" aspect this thread took on earlier.

However... I like everyone else have an a$$hole and know what's I likes... Therefore won't be changing brands based on your results ! (rolly teeth yellow ball head here)

If this is going to be an "all encompassing" salmonid iron test, let me know where/who to send jig and siwash samples to.

Let the beaks mushroom, the bends and eyes break and good luck to you sir.

That Joe...always willing to help out. I'll be damned.

Fish on...

Todd

Uh, what did Joe just say? Could you translate that for us Todd??