Credit given to the people who posted on the Vision hooks thread for inspiring this idea; I want to test comparable octopus hooks for strength. Now how the hell do I do that? I could just test the wire, but I have a feeling that the differences in shape of the bend will have some affect. More than that, I am sure there are lots of variables I have not even begun to consider. Reminds me of a poem...


The Unknown

As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know.

—Donald Rumsfeld, Feb. 12, 2002, Department of Defense news briefing


If I'm the only one genuinely interested in putting Gami, Vision, Owner, Brad's, Daichii, Eagle Claw Lazer, Mustad and others to the testing table...well I'll probably still do it. But if there's some genuine interest I might get it done sooner rather than later.

What say you all?

VHawk

No offense, but......"Why, Vince....Why?

Just one suggestion, Vince.

Standardize the hook size. One make's 3/0 is the same size as another's 4/0.

I think there may also be preferences for lighter wire or heavier wire octopus in the same hook size depending on the application.

Interested to see what you find, although I have an idea in my own mind which hook(s) might straighten/break easier.

Beyond sheer hook strength, another property to test is the resistance to curling of the hook point itself. I don't give a damn if I can straighten the hook by pulling too hard on a fish, but I can't even hook the bastage if the point is curled!

Same reason hunters zero in there rifles prior to hunting. Same reason guys spend hours playing around with different custom powder loads and measuring the difference of an inch at a 100 yards. Same reason that bowhunters can tell you the total weight of their arrow shaft and broadhead within the tolerance of a duck fart. Same reason that guys pattern their shotguns. To squeeze out every single extra bit of efficiency in order to increase success.

A day of salmon fishing can have direct costs of anywhere from $40 on the low end, to easily over $200 per day if your running a boat. If one considers opportunity costs, i.e. the chance to work overtime, a day just bank fishing can costs hundreds. If I'm throwing that kind of money around, I want to know that the terminal gear I'm using is reliable in quantifiable terms.


Not many other sports tolerate such huge variances in what the equipment manufacturers state in the marketing, and what is the truth. Imagine if they sold milk like they sell hooks and line. You could be getting anywhere from 2/3 a gallon, or 1 1/3 gallons in the jug marked 1 gal. Or it could be whole milk, 2%, or nonfat milk. You know how pissed I'd be to pay money for 2/3 gallon of nonfat milk? As pissed as I'd been if I had bought those vision siwash hooks.

OK, Brother! You know I'll read the results with interest, although I just don't see how you plan on dealing with the variables such as temper and shape, let alone sharpness, which, I believe, will be the ultimate driver.
Seems like a daunting task to me. Hats off for even considering it!

EDIT: Why doesn't somebody fix that damn "bowing" icon?? It comes up with "kiss my ass" instead. Been that way a long time now.

He's just bored...

Bring it on VHawk, I would be interested to see VMC's thrown in there too.

Vince,
I've done this a bit with different sizes and makes of circle hooks vis a vis halibut release studies. I would suggest you start by calling and talking to technicians at some of the hook manufacturers. Find their 800 numbers and spend a morning or two. They talk about "pull stength" which is the force required for the hook to start to deform. While manufacturers will give you a range for pull strength, a lot of the strength depends on the particular wire used during a run, as well as the annealing (?) process. While you may find some answers, the more you know, the less you will be able to clearly give a single number for any single hook.

And they have a cool machine that slowly increases pull until the hook deforms. Were goggles !

Personally, i think it's a good idea Vince.

Just like the "milk" analogy, I'm sure the hook manufacturers have done their own testing on their own products ...but have not tested across the board. I bet there has never been a "standardized" test established and applied to all brands. Obviously there are considerations in "standardizing" different brands to be compared (wire size vs. hook size, etc.), but you are quite the scientist and I have faith in your ability to adhere to the "scientific method"...

One further consideration: what if you unearth information which could be considered "damaging" to the PR and marketing of said hook manufacturers? Be warned that a roving "gang" of vision "sponsorees", complete with swag hoodies and stickered rigs, could be looking to sagotage your efforts...

Watch yer back dude...

I just ordered some Matzuo octopus hooks to try out. 2, 1/0, and 2/0. If you want some I should have them in a week or so.

If you could find out from each manufacturer where each one gets thier steel from and find out what alloy they use it'd be a cinch.

You wouldn't have to waste anytime testing.

With all the various materials, shapes, point designs...the variables are too many to test on a bench, IMHO.

With all the various applications they are put to, with different baits, attached to different lures, fished on different types of lines, and different pound tests of lines, the variables in the field are too many to test...

I'd say the best way to test the various octopus style hooks would be to get a few different types, sizes, colors, and materials, and go out and use 'em enough to come up with some useful numbers...

It really depends on when/where/how you fish as to what hook is the best, not on the intrinsic elements of the different hooks...I think.

Some are clearly junky in that the quality control is poor...sizing is variable, some are sharp, some are dull, some have good eyes, others are crappy...other types come out of the box almost all identical, which honestly is where I'd assign "good" or "bad"...at least I know what I'm going to get when I pull them out of the bag...it's up to me to know which ones to buy for what fishery and what application I'll be using them in.

Is a light hook that bends easily a problem? Well, I guess that depends...what are you using it for? Is a hook that will not bend no matter what you do to it the best? Maybe...depends what you are using it for...

A light wire bendy hook on 15 pound test line is going to be trouble for you...a heavy guage stiff hook on six pound test is also going to be trouble for you, as it'll sink your bait into the rocks as fast as putting on too much lead will.

I think your line tests were useful...especially the information about how strong a line will be in the future after it has been stressed...that kind of information is good to apply to almost all types of fishing situations.

I think it will be harder to find useful information in a hook test, beyond checking the quality control to see how consistent the hooks are over a bag of 100, and then describing the qualities, rather than rating them.

Fish on...

Todd

Microtuerus 101: has done this already he even used a hie powerd microscope to show the points sharpness. get hold of jason he can save you some time and has some great info on it.

Aix, thanks that was actually helpful. He didn't happen to post his results somewhere online?


Todd,

I can guarantee only one thing about doing this kind of testing, I'll know more after I've done it. I don't know what I might learn, what insights might be gained, what improvements or modifications might arise out of it, but I'll learn something. Actually I've already learned a bunch of stuff just doing the online research.

Some of your critique is useful however in narrowing down the variables. I'm not sure whether I'll do this or not. But the discussion has already given me some ideas.

Vince,

It will be interesting what results you come up with... Over the years I've fished nearly all the types of hooks known to man and to this day I'll always stick with the Owner Cutting Points.

Positive side, I've never had one break, they're tuff to dull, they have one of the largest barbs of all which you lose less fish because of, they have the perfect offset to penetrate easily and the quality control is nearly perfect...

Negative side, they're fairly expensive....

I'll be curious as to what your results entale.

Keith

I am a with kieth on this one, stated well to the tee! They don't staighten like gamies. my .02

Well, I agree about the cost of a single day of fishing. However I can say that I have never lost a fish to a hook bending . Or a hook breaking.

But I will admit to seeing hooks breaking on snags, hooks bending on snags.

I think if you use gamis or Owners you can't go wrong.

Personally, Vince I think you should take the time you are thinking of spending on this research. And use it to plan a bitcchen fishing trip. Just by gamis or owner hooks for the trip.
JY

I lost the biggest king I have hooked in my life from putting too much pressure on a 1/0 Gami and it bent out just enough to slide out of the fishes mouth. It was a river fish but it was big and chrome. I fought it for 40 minutes and had it 8 feet away from me. Mid 50's. I still use gami's though. -TBJ

Dude a 1/0 and a 50lb king. It was skill (luck) that kept that little hook it the fishes gaping maw for 40 min.
To bad it pulled, I have lost fish at the now or never point of battles. Sometimes its just never.
JY

I have landed many in the 30's and several in the low and upper 40's with single 1/0's, but I have lost more than I have landed thats for sure. Sorry for the hijack.-T