JoJo-
I understand what you are saying and believe me I agree with what you are saying. I guess it's just my greedy side that would like at least one open fishery where I don't have to drive 3-6 hours to get to. I am not the richest bastard out there so I can't afford to drive all over the state every weekend like many can that are saying the fishery should be shut down. Is shutting down really going to make a damn bit of a difference. Is the state going to put extra enforcement on the river to stopped the poachers that love it when the river is closed? Are the nets going to come out? Realistically what is the impact of this fishery? If there are 500 fish caught during this fishery, even with a 10% impact that is only 50 fish. I bet the tribes net that many in the next 2 weeks. Oh well.....I wonder what the job opening in terrace are like these days.

Tim

FNP -
Actually I beleive that the tribal fisheries also have to have an indidental take permit to impact the lsited fish. It is just on places like the Columbia the Feds have given the Tribes a larger portion of the allowed impacts for their fisheries. That was not the case with Puget Sound Chinook (in fact the recreational fishery often has the largest impacts on some stocks).

The fishnfool -
I just checked the escapements on the North Fork Stillaguamish and it looks like the last time it made its escapement goal was 1998. I don't beleive that the Sky has made its goal's sinces its closure either (last year might have been close). Because of the turbidities in the Nooksack I think an escapemnent estimate has been made only once so no one knows if the goal is being meant or not.

However as I pointed out earlier none of that really matters any more. With the ESA lisitng it is a whole new ball game. Until recovery goals are established and folks become comfortable with CnR impacts such fisheries are up in the air. Any such fisheries will have a directed impact on the listed stocks as opposed to incidental impacts while targeting say hatchery fish. Getting approval for directed impacts on a listed stock will require special circumstances.

It is a new era folks!

Tight lines
Curt

It's a new era.......how? The sportsman is the first to take it in the shorts....sounds like the same thing to me!

So when is the closure? Hopefully at least the end of febuary.

Tim

I never understood the 80%. Should be higher, even though it may make it difficult to have a C&R fishery that targets those ESA listed Species.

Jo-Jo ... First off, Quillayute netting effort itself has increased dramatically ... three times the number of drifters of five years ago. It was so heavily fished this year that fights were breaking out amongst netters because of lack of room to set / drift.

Secondly, we're seeing netting in an area that has not been utilzed much (if at all) in recent years. It's above the area that has always been fished, thus we're seeing drift / set nets impact fish that a few years ago would have been home free.

I'll put my myself out on a limb here: a number of these fish are not being accounted for, those of local all know it. They are by-passing the fish house and going straight from the beach to an unaccounted for market. Prices are very good right now and just adds that much more incentive to get 'em all.

Creel reports and hatchery numbers for the Quillayute system say alot about what is happening. This apllies not only to the winter steelhead but fall salmon this year as well.

The tribes control the escapement data and I, amongst many others, belive that the data being put forth is skewed.

Bed ribbons are being dropped on either totally non-existent beds, or test beds and being counted. I've invited WDFW staff to come along for an afternoon boat ride to see this first hand, but no one seems to care.

Smalma ... There are a number of concerns. Yes, much of the traffic comes from a C&R fishery, but I can't begin to count the number of times that you saw fish whacked just beacuse it was still legal here, especially the larger mebers of the population. Also of concern is additional mortality ... especially in the rivers that most out-of-areas fish. Few will venture into the Calawah (for good reason), and many will beat on the Hoh which is undoubtedly the weakest in terms of stock health. ... it will add up.

Also of concern is simply the fishing experience ... doubling the traffic on a river is fun for no one. It dilutes the experience that many of our the guides' customers are lookihg for.

These rivers at at a major crossroads ... and we follow the same path as we've done for so many decades around the state, once again we're going to find a dead end around that next corner.

Interesting that you should use the word "take". It is the part of the ESA that will determine what Puget Sound steelhead fisheries are going to be for several years. It encompasses more than catch.

Defined under the ESA as "to harass, harm, pursue, hunt, shoot, wound, kill, trap, capture, or collect, or to attempt to engage in any such conduct."

Any take of an ESA listed species requires a federal permit. One could be in violation, even for something so simple, as wading in the river to fish if spawning steelhead were near by. CNR without a federal incindental take permit is a serious violation of the law. I believe that the tribes are subject to the law and can only fish with an incidental take permit.

Very sad. It is like watching something you love die a slow death. You want to believe it will be around for a long time, but the voice in the back of your mind is saying, "it aint going to be around that long".

Let's see some numbers.

I am not sure I understand either where the numbers come from. PLEASE EDUCATE ME!

The last two years have been the best I have ever seen on the beaches here for wild steelhead. Last year was amazing, and already a few have been caught, and there is less pressure now then ever before for steelhead from the beach, so that means there has got to be more fish. I am all for conservation and closing things down when needed, I am REALLY for adjusting regulation among sport and commercials during the run, actually managing runs based on real time numbers and conditions. That is what needs to happen. There is no conservation if simply shutting down sport fishing, CnR or bonking, is the states answer to low predicted returns. We want competant management, not headline grabbing disasterous conclusions. Nobody who loves fishing would be against shutting down anything if it means preserving and enhancing a resource for the future, but allowing the rodeo type netting to go on and on and on untill the last steelhead is found, netted, and sold to some tourist at the Pike Place Market is a sin worthy of a lifetime at Walla Walla. I want to see reasonable common sense state biologist who are non-polictical getting results and I want to see the friggin' worthless self-serving ego maniac selfish self-preserving piss me off politicians get out of the way. Running for anything in this states government means you are to represent the wants and needs, and best interests of the citizens of this state. It does not mean to get elected and do what ever it takes to preserve your ass, get out of the way and preserve the resource, which is what fish are, they are a beautiful self sustaining, amazingly resourcefull resource if you get the f'n politics out of the way. 90 % of all citizens and state biologists would be thrilled and do the right things to manage our fisheries if the piss me off special interest and political gain loser ass politicians would just get their caloused souls out of the friggin' way. I believe not all people in government are this way, just too many and we are complacent enough to keep electing them. Screw what they say, look at what they do, then vote, then continue to voice your opinion and send letters or emails or whatever it takes. And don't be a hipocryt. I have not done enough for the resource accept trying to abide by the laws and educate my fishing friends. I need to be educated myself more, obviously. But geez, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the fisheries should be managed by people who actually know what they are talking about and not politicians who pull answers out of their ass with a fake smile on their get me elected again face and ensure their next victory by making conservation neglecting promises to fishery users, or takers who have no interest in preserving anything for the future, just getting the buck they can now because they can or out of tradition.

Oh, by the way, why are there more wild steelhead being caught on the beach now anyway? And bonk the locals here who bonk the natives on the beach. I never see a game wardern around here in Feb., march, April when a few fish a week end up in a refridgerator just up the beach. Enforce the rules we have thouroughly, figure out how to help the fish and fisheries, and act quickly to get results. It ain't that hard if you take the friggin' ass kissing out of it.

oops, got riled up.

Bob - it's not too late to consider a career in the computing industry!

Systems Administrators make good money.

Richard, why don't you just tell us how you really feel !! Good job and good vent/rant.
I too would like to be educated on how this all pans out.

WN1A, does that mean that I need to get a special permit to fish the hatchery fish in the Skagit if there are also Nate's present, such as now?? (I know I can't get a peremit, just trying to get my brain around your statement).

I rarely post here...but holy crap...most of you guys are right on...
what the HELL IS HAPPENING????
here's an easy five point plan.

1. Sportsmen: No killing wild steelhead, period. ever. selective gear only, statewide.

2. State: Actual enforcement of sportsmen - ever fished in BC, Id. or Ore.? you'll get checked - never in Wa. in 28 years of licensed fishing. Classified rivers/licensing system to generate revenues to cover enforcement, etc.

3. Feds: ESA listing as appropriate. Massive pressure / enforcement on tribes.

4. All of us: Massive public relations, PR and lobbying effort for SANE tribal harvest policy / overturn of Boldt...this will cost money. ORGANIZE, DONATE, VOLUNTEER
We're now in the 21st Century and the world has changed. "Usual and Customary" - what a joke... Flame me, but I believe that the tanks should roll in. We're not making treaties with terrorists, and my opinion is that current tribal harvest policy borders on eco-terrorism at worst, theft at best. flame on, hippies.

5. Stay off my river.

Ok......foregone opportunity. Let me explain. A couple years ago, I attended a Chehalis Basin Steelhead Mgt Plan meeting sponsored by WDFW. For 2 hours I sat and listened to them use their well-rehearsed double-speak and squirm as they dodged answers to some direct(and tough) questions that were posed to them by those in attendance.

Near the end of the meeting, an elder Quinalt tribal member spoke up. He quietly sat during the meeting, taking in all dialogue and then presented the tribe's mindest regarding heavy netting. He focused on the Queets example. In his words, they viewed the Queets system as healthy and meeting escapement. Because Olympic National Park went to wild steelhead release regulations for the sporties, that left a number of(in their eyes) surplus fish available for harvest.....foregone opportunity by the sporties. The tribe is simply playing their hand so they figure there are enough fish available to support a 5 days a week gillnet fishery. He said, and I quote "If you won't catch them, we will. However if ONP relaxed there c-n-r regs on the sporties, we would scale back our net fisheries to allow for the sport harvest"

Now I'm not in the least implying that the Queets or any other river should be opened to wild harvest, nor am I condoning the tribal viewpoint. I don't. Just sharing the mindset of the Quinalts(and likely, other tribes) as it was presented to me that evening.

Here's a thought. Sticking with the Queets, it is a glacial river that is often out of shape for a majority of the season. If ONP relaxed the c-n-r requirement for the sports the tribe, theoretically, would scale back their netting to allow for the sport take. Because the river is fishable for such a short window wouldn't more fish escape to the headwaters to spawn during those long, unfishable conditions since netting would be scaled back too? More fish escaping versus the current 5 day-a-week netting marathon. Lesser of two eveils, if you will.

Ideally, I would like c-n-r to remain AND netting scaled back to just give the fish a frick'in break. If the tribal elder at that meeting was full of baloney and they would continue 5 days-a-week even with increased sport harvest than I guess the whole thought is for nothing.

Gotta say, this makes Oregon look pretty damn inviting right now. Sampled many of it's finest rivers while in college down there and yes, it was refreshing to fish rivers where your biggest worry was getting to your spot first and how many fish arrived overnight.......not whether any fish made it through the gauntlet of nets below.

I'm going to start looking at bass boats......NOT

They got them at Cabelas.

FishRanger, individuals fishing in state waters aren't required to get a permit. The state is required to get an incidental take permit to allow a fishery when a take of listed fish might occur. Before they can get a permit they must complete the 4(d) plan that I referenced earlier. Steelhead are only listed in Puget Sound in western Washington. What happens here is entirely different than what is happening on the OP. ESA listing was supported by many sports fishermen, now that it has happened I think many are having second thoughts. Now you know why loggers love spotted owls.

The department needs to be praised for doing the right thing in shutting down the fishery if it isn't going to meet the goal. At the same timethey need to be blasted for letting it get to this point in the first point. Allowing harvest, not standing up where necessary to the tribes, for not having enough enforcement, dumping tremendous amount of hatchery fish in rivers, etc. Be pissed at the department for the bigger picture not this one issue which is shown to be selfish one for many including me.

So many great points have been made. Get involved (I like the WSC personally), educate yourself, write letters, help clean up the sportsman's house first and foremost, etc. Then maybe we can start to get on the other causes of decline. I by no means think that sportsman are the major limiting factor that has caused us to get into this situation but most average people see fisherman as part of the problem not the solution. clean up out house first and then we have a leg to stand on.

JJ

Maybe it's just my simple mind, but doesn't having the tribes self-enforce themselves, sound a little like having the fox watch the henhouse?
The state needs to take their balls out of their collective purses, strap the man pants on and quite frankly "SHOW SOME SACK" and tell our poor conquered native brethern not to net treaty or no treaty. No fish, NO NETS!!!!
Runs aren't meeting escapement any they are netting away without a care in the world. Give me a freaking break.

Time for an organized protest. Drag every boat from all over the state and park them on Olympias front door. Show them how many sporties actually buy liscenses and spend their hard earned $$$ in this State. And don't do it once, do it once a week. We need to make an impact even if it means personal sacrifice, like taking a vacation day, paying a paring ticket or whatever.
Imagine 10000 rigs with boats in tow causing a major traffic nightmare. Make to Queen Christine can't make it home in time for dinner. Pack a lunch, throw your camper on the back of your rig, whatever... you get the idea.

Any old hippies in here?

Ever heard the old saying: "The squeaky wheel gets the grease?" Sounds a whole lot better than sitting idly by, doing nothing and "Getting the shaft"

Let me add one more little tidbit.
Seems to me that we need to fight for our right (to Party ) for our sport.

It's painfully obvious the state and the feds aren't listening. Well they are listening, listening the the commie lobbiests, tribes and anyone else that they care to make back door deals with.

We need to get organized and educate ourselves.I'm hoping the CCA will do some good and they appear to be making headway.

Do you know if it's legal for the tribes to net a certain day and when? I Sure don't, but I always wonder when I see a net. If you see illegal activity, take a picture or video and send it to the authorities. Nearly every cell phone these days has the capability. Pretty hard to fight photo or video evidence. Have poaching hotlines or other agencies saved in your phone.

There are about 7500 members here, Ifish has 16000, steelheader.net has 6000, then the rest. There are some crossovers, but you get the idea.

Time to get political yo

Yeah, that. A quota. What can be done to encourage that? The days gig is Not Working.