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#405011 - 01/15/08 02:28 AM Veterans Disarmament Act signed into LAW
TBird Offline
Fish Fear Me

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 3275
Loc: Port Angeles
Check this out... What a bunch of SH!T!!!!!

This was taken from the Gun Owners of America's website http://www.gunowners.com

As most Americans were preparing for the Christmas holidays last
month, the U.S. Congress pulled another fast one when only few people
were watching.

It was December 19. Most Congressmen had left town and were either
at the airport or in the air returning home. They weren’t in
Washington, DC, because their party leadership had told them that all
the major votes were over… that the only legislative business left
related to non-controversial issues, such as when Congress would
return from Christmas break, etc.

But it was then, with most of the Congress gone, that the House and
Senate passed the Veterans Disarmament Act without a recorded vote.
It was a huge deja vu, as this was the method that a previous
Democratic Congress used — together with compliant Republicans — to
pass the original Brady Law in 1993.

WHO IS TO BLAME?

In the fury that resulted from this “fast one,” many Americans have
wanted to blame the entire lot of them… all 535 congressmen. And,
to be sure, there is an extent to which they all share some blame.

But to be fair, no one congressmen can camp out on the floor of the
House or Senate chambers, every day, 24/7. It’s a physical
impossibility, which is why members of each party rely on their
leadership to protect their interests and keep them informed. And
that’s where the betrayal occurred.

No Unanimous Consent agreement can pass the House or Senate without
the leaders of both parties signing off. And on December 19, the
leaders of each party sent their members home for the Christmas
holidays, while forging Unanimous Consent agreements in each chamber.

As such, the immediate ire should be directed at the following
legislators: Democrats such as Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi
(D-CA) and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV); Republicans such
as House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-OH) and Senate Minority
Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY).

Obviously, the backers of the Veterans Disarmament Act should be held
to account, as well. Most of the lead sponsors were Democrats –
such as Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY) and Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-NY).

But there were a few key Republicans who helped cosponsor the
legislation: Representatives Michael Castle (DE), Christopher Shays
(CT) and Lamar Smith (TX). And dishonorable mention goes to Tom
Price of Georgia who was physically present on the House floor on
December 19. It was Rep. Price who asked for the Unanimous Consent
agreement to pass the Veterans Disarmament Act without a vote.

Finally, many of you know that Senator Tom Coburn (R-OK) held up the
bill in the Senate for several months. His intentions were laudable
as he desperately wanted to protect Second Amendment rights and cut
unconstitutional spending.

Unfortunately, not one pro-gun senator chose to stand with Coburn…
not one. In fact, GOA felt just as alone as Coburn did. While two
veterans groups (and several pro-gun state groups) sided with us, GOA
was the only pro-gun group at the federal level that actively fought
this legislation week after week, while another and bigger
organization was working behind the scenes to help pass the Veterans
Disarmament Act.

Standing alone, Senator Coburn decided to negotiate for a better
bill. GOA was asked for input and made a few contributions to the
bill, but not enough to justify support for the Veterans Disarmament
Act.

Add to this fact that GOA was prevented from seeing the final version
of the bill before the brokered Schumer-Coburn compromise was taken
to the floor under a Unanimous Consent agreement.

As a result, Senator Coburn spoke in favor of the compromise bill on
the floor of the Senate — something that was a huge mistake, for
many of the glaring problems with the bill still remained untouched.

So chalk up a victory for Chuck Schumer… and for Carolyn McCarthy
as well, as she told CBS News, “This is the best Christmas present I
could ever receive.”

WHAT DOES THE BILL DO IN GENERAL?

It would be a mistake to under-react — or over-react — to the
passage of the Veterans Disarmament Act. On the bad side, this bill
statutorily validates BATF regulations which could potentially disarm
millions of Americans. This is a VERY DANGEROUS turn of events which
will have huge ramifications over the next several decades.

The extent to which its unconstitutional potential will be realized
will be clear only over time — and perhaps a long time — and will
depend on whether pro-gunners or anti-gunners are in power. For
example, it took a full thirty years for language in the 1968 Gun
Control Act to be used to disarm veterans.

On the other hand, GOA was able to secure a few modest concessions
which should provide some protection to gun owners — though NOT
NEARLY ENOUGH PROTECTION TO JUSTIFY SUPPORT of this bill.

So having said that, what are the implications of this legislation
for Americans with psychiatric diagnoses?

Although we succeeded in forcing the deletion of the ratification of
the BATF regulations, per se, section 101 (c) (1) (C) contains new
language which could make you a “prohibited person” (unable
to own a
gun) based solely on a medical finding (by a psychiatrist or
psychologist), provided:

* That you had “an opportunity for a hearing by a court, board,
commission or other lawful authority”; and

* In the future, that you had notice that you would be made a
“prohibited person” as a result of the agency action (section
101 (c)
(3)). [NOTE: This was added pursuant to negotiations over GOA’s
objections to the bill.]

However, even these modest gains have severe limitations. Up to
140,000 veterans had their gun rights taken away as a result of a
diagnosis of a mental disorder such as Post Traumatic Stress Disorder
(PTSD). But this new law does not require two important things for
those 140,000 people:

1. The new law does not require that a veteran needed to have any
knowledge of the ramifications of the “diagnosis” in the past
– and
the fact that this diagnosis could disarm him or her for life. How
many veterans suffering from PTSD simply went to Veterans Affairs,
hoping to get treatment, but now face a lifetime gun ban because of
the new law?

2. Also, the act does not require that the disarmed vets even knew
they had a right to appeal their diagnosis. Many of the 140,000
Americans who have now lost their Second Amendment rights first
received a letter from Veterans Affairs telling them that, due to
their diagnosis, a “guardian” was being appointed for them to
handle
their affairs. As stated above, how many vets realized that this
action would deem them as “mental defective” under the 1968 Gun
Control Act and strip them of their gun rights?

Moreover, how many vets realized they could challenge this action by
appealing the diagnosis? If they didn’t realize the significance of
this VA letter, most likely, the vets did nothing, as they were more
concerned with getting the monetary benefits that such a diagnosis
would bring. But, whether they knew these things or not, this new
law would still validate the removal of their Second Amendment
rights.

HOW WILL THE BILL AFFECT ME?

If you have been subject to a psychological or psychiatric diagnosis,
the following may be helpful:

* A diagnosis by your private doctor — with no government
involvement — will probably cause you no problems.

* The biggest danger remains the danger for veterans. Although the
language of this bill could conceivably disarm adults who were
diagnosed as kids with ADHD in connection with the IDEA program,
seniors on Medicare with Alzheimers, etc., we know of no active
efforts to disarm persons in these cases — yet.

* The likelihood that new classes of people will be disarmed will be
directly related to the ease of accomplishing this though a computer
keyboard. If your file exists only on microfiche in a dusty basement
cabinet, you are relatively safe for now — although, keep in mind,
the new law calls for monies to be spent on collecting and updating
records like this.

* Obviously, the question of whether a gun hater or Second Amendment
supporter is in the White House on January 20, 2009, will have a lot
to do with how vigorously this new statute is enforced.

WHAT CAN I DO IF I’M ILLEGITIMATELY PROHIBITED FROM BUYING A GUN?

In the unlikely event that you can get your diagnosis “set aside,”
“expunged,” or found to no longer exist, you can regain your
rights.
[See section 101(c)(1)(A)&(B).]

The McClure-Volkmer “relief from disabilities” provisions
which have
been blocked by sponsor Schumer for 15 years have been reinstated and
expanded — so that they will now exist in the broader range of state
and federal agencies which this bill will allow to make you a
prohibited person. Pursuant to negotiations over GOA’s objections,
we were able to secure very modest improvements which:

* Would allow you to sue to get your rights restored if the agency
sat on your appeal for 365 days;

* Would allow you to get your legal fees if you prevail against the
agency in court;

* Would prevent Schumer from defunding these efforts in the same way
he defunded McClure-Volkmer — by requiring the 3% of state funds
under this bill be used for these “relief from disabilities”
programs.

But here’s the major loophole in all of this. What minimal gains
were granted by the “right hand” are taken away by the
“left.”
Section 105 provides a process for some Americans diagnosed with
so-called mental disabilities to get their rights restored in the
state where they live. But then, in subsection (a)(2), the bill
stipulates that such relief may occur only if “the person will not be
likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety and that the
GRANTING OF THE RELIEF WOULD NOT BE CONTRARY TO THE PUBLIC INTEREST.”
(Emphasis added.)

This language sounds similar to those state codes (like California’s)
that have “may issue” concealed carry laws — where citizens
“technically” have the right to carry, but state law only says that
sheriffs MAY ISSUE them a permit to carry. When given such leeway,
those sheriffs usually don’t grant the permits!

As we have predicted before: liberal states — the same states that
took these people’s rights away — will treat almost every person who
has been illegitimately denied as a danger to society and claim that
granting relief would be “contrary to the public interest.”

WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?

GOA is devising strategies with House and Senate members to restore
veterans’ rights. Please stay tuned.






The NRA actually gave this bill it's support!! WTF??

I'll warn everyone right now, I'm a very open minded person, and I'm completely closed on this one...
_________________________



So easy, a cavegirl could do me

Team FTW

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#405013 - 01/15/08 02:40 AM Re: Veterans Disarmament Act signed into LAW [Re: TBird]
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1765
The NRA wants money, if they settled all this drama once and for all, then they would be jobless...

Top
#405014 - 01/15/08 02:44 AM Re: Veterans Disarmament Act signed into LAW [Re: TBird]
Irie Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/26/06
Posts: 4317
Loc: South Sound
The NRA is the Redneck Fundraising arm of the GOP. Nothing more. The GOA is the Militant arm of The John Birch Society and they go far beyond gun ownership and are so radically right field that they aren't taken seriously.

I tossed my NRA membership about 2 years ago.

With any luck that bill will be canned by the SCOTUS.

Top
#405049 - 01/15/08 11:25 AM Re: Veterans Disarmament Act signed into LAW [Re: ]
stlhead Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6732
Hmmm....so what's the argument here? People who are deemed mentally unstable should be able to buy guns? Is the NRA claiming it's some sort of therapy?
_________________________
"You learn more from losing than you do from winning." Lou Pinella

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#405054 - 01/15/08 11:40 AM Re: Veterans Disarmament Act signed into LAW [Re: stlhead]
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1765
 Originally Posted By: stlhead
Hmmm....so what's the argument here? People who are deemed mentally unstable should be able to buy guns? Is the NRA claiming it's some sort of therapy?



I think the problem lies in who is doing the deeming, and what agenda might be served...

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#405057 - 01/15/08 11:44 AM Re: Veterans Disarmament Act signed into LAW [Re: stlhead]
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1765
 Originally Posted By: stlhead
Hmmm....so what's the argument here? People who are deemed mentally unstable should be able to buy guns? Is the NRA claiming it's some sort of therapy?



I'm not sure if that's a typo or what, but you knew the NRA signed off on this stupid bill, right ?



Our troubles won't be solved by putting more laws on the books.

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#405062 - 01/15/08 12:06 PM Re: Veterans Disarmament Act signed into LAW [Re: Oregonian]
stlhead Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6732
Don't care which gun nut group approved or opposed of it. In principal it's a fine idea. If you suffer from PTSD you shouldn't have a gun IMO. Sorry. Should have had this in effect after Vietnam. One downside I suppose is people who really really want to keep their guns won't report their mental problems. But the public will probably find out the hard way. It's amazing how some, and I'm not accusing anyone in particular, go bananas over anything to do with gun control but then fully support restricting our other liberties for the common good. The type of reasoning that get's us an idiot for a pres.


Edited by stlhead (01/15/08 12:08 PM)
_________________________
"You learn more from losing than you do from winning." Lou Pinella

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#405063 - 01/15/08 12:06 PM Re: Veterans Disarmament Act signed into LAW [Re: Oregonian]
TBird Offline
Fish Fear Me

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 3275
Loc: Port Angeles
The problem is that so many people that fought for our country, and have been deemed "psychologically affected" by it, are no longer allowed to posess a firearm. If you agree, then you can go to hell for slapping every one of those veterans directly in the face. Til now there were only two ways to lose your second amendment rights, a felony or dishonorable discharge from the service...
_________________________



So easy, a cavegirl could do me

Team FTW

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#405064 - 01/15/08 12:07 PM Re: Veterans Disarmament Act signed into LAW [Re: TBird]
TBird Offline
Fish Fear Me

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 3275
Loc: Port Angeles
Statistically speaking, people with PTSD are no more likely to commit a crime involving weapons than someone without... So your argument holds no bearing.
_________________________



So easy, a cavegirl could do me

Team FTW

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#405066 - 01/15/08 12:11 PM Re: Veterans Disarmament Act signed into LAW [Re: TBird]
stlhead Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6732
I don't know how old you are but if you remember post vietnam there were a lot of instances of vets wigging out and killing people including themselves. All blamed on PTSD. I have an uncle with severe PTSD and I sure don't want him running around armed.
_________________________
"You learn more from losing than you do from winning." Lou Pinella

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#405078 - 01/15/08 12:41 PM Re: Veterans Disarmament Act signed into LAW [Re: ]
stlhead Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6732
Maybe ya'll should actually read the bill instead of some web site with an agenda's take on it.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:HR02640:@@@L&summ2=m&
_________________________
"You learn more from losing than you do from winning." Lou Pinella

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#405083 - 01/15/08 12:49 PM Re: Veterans Disarmament Act signed into LAW [Re: stlhead]
TBird Offline
Fish Fear Me

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 3275
Loc: Port Angeles
I have read the bill, as a matter of fact, I read it before I read anything else. Let me know when you decide to start punching veterans in the face for serving their country. I'll be there in their defense under any and all circumstances.
_________________________



So easy, a cavegirl could do me

Team FTW

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#405085 - 01/15/08 12:54 PM Re: Veterans Disarmament Act signed into LAW [Re: TBird]
stlhead Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6732
If you read it then you'd know that no where does it once mention veterans.
_________________________
"You learn more from losing than you do from winning." Lou Pinella

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#405091 - 01/15/08 01:02 PM Re: Veterans Disarmament Act signed into LAW [Re: stlhead]
TBird Offline
Fish Fear Me

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 3275
Loc: Port Angeles
"Requires the Attorney General to: (1) ensure that all NICS information received from federal agencies is kept accurate and confidential; (2) provide for the removal and destruction of obsolete and erroneous names and information from the NICS; and (3) work with states to encourage the development of computer systems for notifying the Attorney General when a court order has been issued or removed or a person has been adjudicated as mentally defective or committed to a mental institution."

This involves anyone with a diagnosed case of PTSD


"Prohibits federal agencies from providing a person's mental health or commitment information to the Attorney General if: (1) such information has been set aside or expunged or the person involved has been fully released or discharged from all mandatory treatment, supervision, or monitoring; (2) the person has been found to no longer suffer from a mental health condition or has been found to be rehabilitated; or (3) the adjudication or commitment is based solely on a medical finding of disability without a hearing and there has been no adjudication under the federal criminal code of mental defectiveness."

Lets see, if you want to give up your disability listing, and any money being compensated to you for it, you can get your rights back... I'm sure fraudulent claims will be made against you for your initial PTSD claim in the event you say you are A-OK...

That "Mentally defective" line includes anyone with PTSD on any level...

This whole thing was originally made known to me by way of the DAV, who will be fighting this new law.
_________________________



So easy, a cavegirl could do me

Team FTW

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#405094 - 01/15/08 01:10 PM Re: Veterans Disarmament Act signed into LAW [Re: TBird]
eddie Offline
Carcass

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 2389
Loc: Valencia, Negros Oriental, Phi...
Once again, the 2nd Amendment apologists make it so clear why they are a "clear and present" danger.
_________________________
"You're not a g*dda*n looney Martini, you're a fisherman"

R.P. McMurphy - One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest

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#405111 - 01/15/08 02:03 PM Re: Veterans Disarmament Act signed into LAW [Re: ]
stlhead Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6732
Simply calling it the "Veterans Disarmament Act " is someone furthering their own agenda. The title is "To improve the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, and for other purposes."

Maybe there are flaws that need to be fixed and will be fixed and maybe not. But how can anyone not agree that barring the mentally ill from owning guns isn't a good idea? Maybe I should be against this since Bush signed it into law since he is close to a 100% F up.

"the adjudication or commitment is based solely on a medical finding of disability without a hearing and there has been no adjudication under the federal criminal code of mental defectiveness."
I think you are reading this wrong. If this is the case then
"Prohibits federal agencies from providing a person's mental health or commitment information to the Attorney General if:"

Where anyone sees PTSD in this is beyond me.....unless you want to spin it into an agenda.
_________________________
"You learn more from losing than you do from winning." Lou Pinella

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#405115 - 01/15/08 02:08 PM Re: Veterans Disarmament Act signed into LAW [Re: stlhead]
stlhead Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6732
""Requires the Attorney General to:" "work with states to encourage the development of computer systems for notifying the Attorney General when a court order has been issued or removed or a person has been adjudicated as mentally defective or committed to a mental institution."

Adjudicated = to settle judicially

To me if the VA diagnoses you with PTSD I see nothing in this bill that prevents you from owning a firearm unless they did it through the courts or had you committed. Show me where I am wrong.
_________________________
"You learn more from losing than you do from winning." Lou Pinella

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#405117 - 01/15/08 02:12 PM Re: Veterans Disarmament Act signed into LAW [Re: stlhead]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27838
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
I'm inclined to support the bill without even reading it, if only for the fact that those fascist nutjobs at the GOA support it...those guys are living and breathing proof of why some folks ought not have guns, and why the rest of us should.

That would, unfortunately, have me siding with the NRA, who also are lying sacks...quite a dilemma.

Insane people should not have weapons, period. Anyone who owns a gun should support this, with no reservations...since the 2nd Amendment huggers are so full of "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" rhetoric, here's their chance to not be hypocritical about the only actual stance they ever take...

Will they take it? Of course not...because like the rest of their agenda, it's not about people, it's about guns.

Why in God's green Earth would anyone...anyone...who supports gun ownership ever...EVER...have a problem with a law that makes mentally incompetent people unable to walk around with guns?

If people are actually worried about the government taking their guns away, then they should get their heads out of their asses and realize that it won't happen while everyone has their guns clean and safe in their pockets or gun safes...it will happen while some dip$hit is walking around in a mall shooting someone, or holed up in a tower on a university campus picking off people as they walk to class.

Any gun ownership advocates who support insane people walking around with firearms ought to have their own sanity checked by a professional.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#405121 - 01/15/08 02:23 PM Re: Veterans Disarmament Act signed into LAW [Re: Todd]
TBird Offline
Fish Fear Me

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 3275
Loc: Port Angeles


Hey Stlhead, would the DAV be concerned about this and be telling disabled veterans this at their most recent meeting if it weren't the case? I'm working right now so I dont have much time at the moment to handle this completely, but I will...

Todd, Mentally incompetent people are one thing, most people with PTSD are completely another. I'm saying there need to be specific disclusions in this bill to protect the rights of those who have served to protect you and I.
_________________________



So easy, a cavegirl could do me

Team FTW

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#405124 - 01/15/08 02:31 PM Re: Veterans Disarmament Act signed into LAW [Re: Todd]
ParaLeaks Offline
WINNER

Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 10363
Loc: Olypen
Below please find your test for excessive stress.....see if you can find any difference between the two identical dolphins....


















_________________________
Agendas kill truth.
If it's a crop, plant it.




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