The biggest myth/conspiracy out there is the intelligence was manipulated by the Bush administration. We all know 47-some-odd countrys participated in the intelligence gathering process. The Clinton administration bombed Iraq several times throughout the 90's prior to Bush 43 and would have invaded if he hadn't gotten a blow job. So don't even try to go there calling it Bush's war. We know for a FACT Saddam Hussein used WMD's on his own people. We know for a FACT he continued to ignore sanctions and continued to violate international law. Nobody knew where they stashed the WMDs. It could have been Jordan, Syria, or other places in Iraq. We never scanned 100% of that country nor intend to. IT was a former Clinton Administration official that told president Bush- QUOTE "its a slam dunk" we acted on. ITs also a fact Al Qaeda was is and still is there. You see there were no lies. There was no manipulated data. Intelligence can be wrong. It was not a mistake to go there considering what Saddam's regime was doing to it's own people.

Im amazed you guys are so bitter about your loss in 00' & 04' still... and the way its looking now your loss in 08'. Good luck! You can always win with Gregoire this year in a 3rd recount. 1 out of 3 ain't bad.


- don't flatter yourself, the Bush adminstration isn't spying on your cell phone

quote] Your response reminds me of a very funny book I read where some Blacks in the south were arrested for attempted manufacture of Molotov Cocktails because they had some sheets in the house along with a case of bottled soda and a Buick in the driveway with a half tank of gas.

It is about terrorists and it is about preventing terrorist acts. Homeland Security has prevented such acts and as far as I know, the scum that were caught are in jail and will be tried in a court of law. Their Habeas rights are intact.

Have you or anyone you know of been the subject of warrantless searches or picked up and hauled off for no reason? I doubt it.
[/quot

The problem is the law does not target terrorists, it applies to everyone. About a year ago I read an article in Newsweek or Time about a man in the Los Angeles area that the FBI was interested in. Because they did not have legal grounds to search and or arrest this guy, they searched his property under the Patriot Act provisions. They found 3in1 oil, a bag of petroleum based fertilizer, and a gallon can of gas for his lawn mower. Because these items can be components for a bomb, they labeled him an enemy combatant/terrorist, suspended his rights under the constitution, and hauled him away. Sounds a lot like your example above.

Do you see how easy it would be to silence you if the government "just felt like it"? I don't really expect you to change your position, just food for thought.

"We know for a FACT Saddam Hussein used WMD's on his own people. "

We know because we gave him the chemical weapons.

"ITs also a fact Al Qaeda was is and still is there."

Actually it's the opposite. The CIA say's Saddam did not harbor and wanted nothing to do with Al Qaeda. Yes they must be lying now. Truth then lies now right?

"We never scanned 100% of that country nor intend to."

No that's what the UN inspectors were doing and said there were no WMD's and it turned out they were spot on.

" There was no manipulated data."

I'm looking at living proof. BJ brain cells are manipulated data.

Fishpinner, I never said that no other president had ever suspended rights but that you have lost more rights in the past 7 years than in the enitre histiory of this country. My info isn't spoon fed to me by any media org. Unfortunately most of the kool-aid drinkers get their "opinion" from sources like Fox News impartial and ballanced coverage.
FYI I haven't "embarrassed" myself yet but thanks for looking out for me.

Do you have a link to the article? I would be more than happy to change my position if you guys stopped dealing in anecdotes and theoretical situations and gave me some cold, hard facts with solid references on cases where loyal Americans have been severely mistreated due to the Patriot Act.

And stever, if you honestly think that the Patriot Act is worse than being rounded up and thrown in a concentration camp due to your ethnicity, I am dumbfounded and don't know what to tell you.

How about trying to, very publically, pin the Spain train bombings on an innocent lawyer from Oregon?

fishspinner, can you name one high profile case that the FBI has gotten right? Don't you find that incredibly scary that the FBI, whom seems to bungle almost every high profile case (cases they escalate and try to crucify people via the media) has been granted unprecedented unchecked power to spy on us without a warrant?

Dude, you are flat out WRONG. The suspension of Habeas Corpus during the Civil War was historically and practically the worst loss of rights American citizens have ever face in the entire history of this country. Stop embarrassing yourself.

Here's one persons experience:

http://www.alternet.org/story/15770/

BTW, the Oregon lawyer's name was Brandon Mayfield if you want to look it up.

I do not have a link - I will try to find it. I don't deal in heresay, I really read it in an actual publication. I am not trying to change your opinion either - you have every right to your beliefs - now that's freedom!

I'm totally baffled that erstwhile conservatives support the suppression of Constitutional civil rights. Except for the Oregon lawyer who was crucified by the FBI, that no other innocent American has been (that we know of) hauled off to jail with no right to an attorney, no right to hear the charges against him, no right to confront his accuser, is irrelevant. The fact that the government CAN do this is antithetical to Americanism. At least we know better than to count on you to be a descendant of the Sons of Liberty. Bloody amazing. It used to only be whacked out liberals that fit that profile. Does a conservative support anything of value any more? Or have they all sold out to Bushco and stomped whatever was good in conservatism into the mud?

More names to research:

STEVE KURTZ
Robert Ferrell
Maher Arar

Are you "more than happy" to change your position yet?

Do tell.

Koresh and his cult of whackjobs shot and killed federal agents who were there to serve a warrant on weapons charges. If you shoot a federal agent serving a valid warrant, I don't give a f*ck if they blow your ass off the planet, because you deserve it.

Now, Ruby Ridge was a different scenario altogether. It was an abomination of an operation and is a huge stain on Janet Reno's tenure.

Bad examples Hankster. Koresh was stockpiling illegal firearms. Thankfully you noted him as a leader of a cult. Cults are not afforded any more second amendment rights than the rest of us. (Of course the SCOTUS could better clarify what the 2nd amendment means.)

Elian Gonzalez was a minor child who illegally entered the US. His mother, had she survived could have asked for assylum, but that opportunity isn't afforded to minors. Either we are a nation of laws, or we aren't. I agree that was a difficult, but legally not a tough call. At age 5, Elian wasn't qualified to state a choice as to what country to reside in. And he had a legal guardian, his father, in Cuba. I don't recall his father stating that Elian should stay in the US. Absent that, there was no other legal choice but to return him home, terrified looks in the newspaper notwithstanding. If you make choices based on media sensationalism, I don't think you're really worthy of the conservative hat. Just my opinion.

Just a completely different thought on this whole war/terroism rant: what if the US spent the same amount of money on food, sanitation, housing, etc. in the arab world as it has spent on the war? What would the terrorists do? "Those american infidels have wiped out poverty in our lands, kill them!" I remember something about more flies with honey than vinegar.....

You should take your own advise and read it yourself. Congress has that power not the President. 1st time he suspended it in 1861 was in the rebellious states and he did it when congress was not in session. In 1862 after taking alot of heat from a group called the Copperhead democrats he suspended it in the rest of the states for the duration. After the war the supreme court declared all the military tribunals during the war unconstiutional because of this.What Lincoln did was probably unconstitutional and he as much as said so in saying that "violating the Constitution was required in order to save it". I don't know how you Liberals are any different than the conservatives doing all the same things, burying your head in the sand worrying about making sure that gays are able to marry and that Christmas can't be celebrated publically.

I wouldn't vote for Abe Lincoln again if I were you.

Even if Old Abe got elected by the popular vote, there's still no guarantee he'd become president. It's really rainy down here, I have nothing better to do than stir the pot

Well it was red versus blue for a while there. I think the Dixie Chicks felt at war.

On a side note: The Dixie Chick was started as a bluegrass band by Robyn Macy, my 5th grade math teacher. She quit because she didn't like the "country" direction the band was headed. ...and because she loved teaching.


carryon...

Thanks for having a sense of humor.