Just saw an article where in Oregon they are firing wild fire crew formen because they do not speak spanish. The powers to be hired a large number of mexican fire fighters when the ranks were over-extended. Now they are going to lay off the existing crew leaders instead of requiring the new firefighters to learn english. This was America before the liberal do gooders took over.

"liberal"? You think importing cheap labor comes from liberals huh?

Spot on.

Liberal,bleeding hearts,socialists, you can call them whatever you like. This country we knew a few short years ago is now gone. We are now supposed to give anyone who steps foot on our soil the same, no make that more rights than the native population. I don't mean just the indians. I am a native American. I was born in Montana. I hope you like the idea of your wages going down as prices rise due to this "cheap" labor. When the employers are required to give them benifits like medical and we no longer need translaters in the emergency rooms for the ones who go there with a cold,then it will be more level playing field.

Laterun,

You seem to completely have missed stlhead's and Irie's point. Your two examples are perfect: 1) medical benefits not being given by an employer and 2) lack of health care which leads to situations where emergency rooms are in crisis. You think it is "liberals" causing the problems? Sounds like you need to turn the radio dial.

I don't listen to talk radio as it is all slanted b.s.. I don't think that liberalism has a political party. There are probably just as many Republicans that feel we should help the immigrants (legal/illegal) as there are Democrats. Maybe liberal is the wrong word, but I think you should now see to whom I am referring.

Maybe you mean capitalists trying to increase the bottom line for the benefit of their stock holders.

I guess that is what should be expected as these are government jobs. It is way more important to be politically correct than to be just.

More medical benefits from an employer would happen if they had tax breaks for them to make them more affordable. I own a small B and do give all my employees health care benef. Yet all I hear is how I should pay more in taxes and the 60mil people in america that pay nothing and get handouts are so hurting. 35% I guess is not enough of my income to pay.....should be %40 and then screw you rich guy, you get all the breaks. While we are at it lets give "universal" health care. It will only be another 5% raise in taxes over 40% on the "rich". 45% is not that bad. That way, every poor small company in America have to pay for all the lazy a$$es that dont do anythign for themselves.
And on the second point, if we shut the borders and had less people who have no ID, money, insurance, address.......ect, the emergency rooms would not be so crouded and you would get right in. Believe me, I have worked in them everywhere from San Fran to Boston. To try to say the answer is all about the "liberal ideals" is a joke. Any two year old could tell you that 5% of the population should not have to pay 45% of there income while 60mil pay nothing.

do you have alink to the story?

docspud, I hear you, before I retired I was giving about 42% back each week. I can understand the logic,I was in the craft unions and caught sh!t from people all the time like I was the reason thier wages were so low. I tried to explain that even though I did not agree with all the things unions did,if it weren't for the unions everyone would be working twelve hour days for $5. an hour.

Talk radio is Ego Masturbation, whichever slant it caters to. They're just stroking the opinion center of your brain long enough to make you listen to their commercials and let you feel morally superior and correct.

The State of Arizona last summer passed a bill revoking the business licences of companies that employ illegals because illegal immigration was undercutting the wages and quality of life for Arizona Citizens and the local GOP hacks down there $hit a brick.

That right there in a nutshell sums up the GOP and their views on the working class, immigration, and corporations.

Can you prove this or do you think all business owners republicans?

http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/0301sanctions0301.html

From what I have read the bill passed pretty much unanmisouly (SP) with both democrat and republicans who voted no.. You should probably do a little more research..

I completely agree with Docspud, my parents own a small business and pay health care for there employees with very little benefit to them in the form of tax breaks. I personally don't want to pay for healthcare for anyone but myself, nor do I feel it necessary to help people who put themselves in bad situations from there own Piss Poor Life decisions.

We need the link to the story. No link=Internet rumor...

the democrat platform is not to make English the official language of America. Hillary said we should all learn another language.

I HAD to call the IRS last week. "Hell-o, if you would like to continue in English press 1."

I work in a union shop and our healthcare package is not "GIVEN" to us. We negociate a new contract every 3 years and the costs for healthcare come out of the total wage package.

What is so bad about letting people shop for their own health insurance ?

Do people really think forcing employers to buy health insurance makes it "free" ?

Their are plenty of under achievers out there who don't have anything to lose, what exactly do they gain by having $500 per month worth of insurance when they don't even have $500 of net worth ?

Insurance company propaganda...

P.S. There are lots of laborer types out there that would rather have another dollar an hour than medical insurance...been prooved.

I didnt say anything about business owners, I said the GOP. Most of them were lobbyists and party shills & corporate interest groups taking advantage of the abundance of illegals in AZ.

Why didn't the republicans vote it down then? And why did both democrats and republicans voteagainst the bill (minority, the bill won by a margin of over 3 to 1). I think your grasping for straws here Irie.

What about a guy who is temporarily down on his luck. Lost his job and before he found a new one got hurt with no benefit coverage. You don't think we should as a society help him?

Why should we help him? If he had a job that provided insurance then he should have signed up for Cobra when he was let go. If he got hurt bad enough that it was life changing there are already several options availaible for them..

Dave
Hypothetically, Sheryl gets knocked up in highschool and chooses to drink and party for the next few years.. before she knows it she's 25 with 4 kids from different daddies, Why should society help her? Why should my taxpayer money go to support them?

I have known people who when they lost their job had to make the choice between Cobra and eating, it's not a difficult choice when money is that tight.

It's not her your helping, it's the kids and that is what seperates us from the 3rd world countries. There is plenty of money to give everyone free health care, the Government just chooses to spend it on other BS stuff.

Since your taxpayer money has to go somewhere why not make health care the first place and then let the rest fall where it may. I'd love to see us run out of money for artillery on our current war adventure.

Not me, I don't particularly enjoy Chinese food or Vodka.
By helping her and her kids you generally just end up paying for them in Prision and them continuing the cycle. Sorry I have no urge to help those people. By paying for her it continues to enable to cycle. So no F..em

Bring the Troops home,muscle wetbacks back over the border and cease giving handouts.

Are you implying that leaving Iraq would lead to China or Russia taking over the US?

Also, if you don't help those kids, don't you think the odds of them ending up in "prision" would be higher? And, you'd still be paying for them then. How does not paying for them "stop the cycle"?

No but disarming the military as some are propenents of doing would. Iraq is a bad situation, but the sublect has already been beat to death. Lets see Cheryl has one kid and gets govement support so things are tight but she still survives. Cheryl has one kid and gets nothing, back to the rents to try and figure out life rather than keep poppin out our next generatrion of prisoners and welfare mothers.

I'm only making a guess here, but is Cheryl your mom's name? I'm also guessing you're a big "God bless America" kinda guy, and America is a "Christian nation" and "Muslims just want to kill all us Christians."

Dude, you're a walking contradiction.

I'd also suggest you adopt a policy of at least 6 hours from bottle to keyboard.

Please elaborate on how I am a walking contradiction? My moms name is Shaquanda BTW . Actually If you did any research the muslims would have killed Cheryl during her first pregnancy in hardline countries. What if I am a muslim? I couldn't pick you out in a room of 1, and I bet the same goes for me. So once again, how am I a walking contradiction?

Without social programs you'd have complete anarchy. Starvation, homelessness, disease, crime and violence. You, as a taxpayer, are going to pay either way you look at it so you might as well choose the option that keeps the peace.

Link to the story...www.katu.com/news/3634401.html

NOT an internet rumor,nor unsubstanciated.

I just love that all the big Bush supporters keep waving the flag,saying we need to support the troops (which I do) and label anyone who opposes the war as being unpatriotic. It is amazing to see the results of all the government brainwashing and how easy it is to accomplish. As a direct result of this "war",we see the price of gas just keep rising. It is just a conincidence that big business is showing record profits as our soldiers die on a daily basis and we as a nation go further in debt.
Can anyone tell me why,other than to "stop the rise of Communism" we spent so much and lost so many in Vietnam? Does anyone really believe we would have been any worse off as a country if we had never paid the price of Vietnam? This "war" will go down as our biggest waste of funds and man power to date. But like anything else, we will not learn anything from it and repeat it at some later date.
I honestly believe that as soon as we pull out of Iraq there will be a massive civil war and we will see another similar group in power like the one that was ousted.Religious wars NEVER end.

I love this type of convers. Lets look at it logically. How do you intend to pay for(everyone covered.)? God knows we cant raise taxes on the "middle class" which I happen to consider myself even if the gov does not. Dont ask the 60mil that pay nothing and leach off "social programs". They could not possibly go get a job because then they would have no time to do the other things that make life livable for them, drink, smoke of the glass, pop out more kids, collect welfare....ets. Let raise taxes on the "rich". They pay a higher % now by 10%, just up it another 5% and all is well and good. Social sec gets in more trouble.....dont try to fix it, just raise the payrole tax on the "rich" again 3% more or adjusting the cap should do it. Need more money for medicare.......get those "rich" again, 2% this time. finacial uncertainty, you guessed it...."rich" again. Morgage crisis, rich. Need more taxes for any and everything else, rich, because noone knows who the hell that is anyway until all of the sudden you are in the government crosshairs.
When this country was founded, it was biult on a society of hard workers "working" to get ahead. The CEOs did not get where they are at by sitting on there a$$es. Doctors and lawyers and everyone else that went ot 10+ years of college and grad school got there by hard work. We accumulate hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans that will take 20 year to pay off. We start office that we will finally own when we are in our 60's. These are now the "rich" that pay for your social programs, not the corp titons, and pay for everything else as well. Small business owners who worked from the ground up and could end up being you in hte end should you decide to go that route. Money is tight and all we ever hear is how we should pay more. When did this society start punishing hard work and rewarding laziness. That was not what we were founded on and it is sad that it where we seem to be headed.
This is the truth....I am so tired of being told that I dont pay enough in taxes at 35% of my income and just raise them to pay for these "plans" politicians come up with to get votes. If you want coverage, then get a job and pay for it. I have a small business and there are riders that cover after people leave and there plan does not just "end" as was stated before. Every plan Bluewater has the option of extension if the person wants it beyond what is already covered but yes it should be them that pays for it. ER which I have worked in around the country are slammed with people who should not be in the country and that is why there are lines and it costs so much. Dont start on the Muslim crap because my wife is muslim and yes, some are allowed to marry though we would be killed in some other countries if we did. The vast majority are hard working great people but there are a small % that need a cruise missile dropped on their heads(the ones that dance in the street when a school bus of jewish shildren are blown up my a "martyr"). Our health care problem will be fixed when people stop stating everyone has a inherrant right to everything and start saying you need to work to take care of yourself. Save money for a rainy day and dont go buy that extra six pack for the weekend if you cant afford it. If it is out of your control then it should be covered as emergency care (as is done now) but not a legal citizen, tough. Handouts are what has made this country weak. Socialist societies which there are many have terrible economies because there is no drive to get ahead. No incentive to work. Everyone should pay their share and quit asking for everyone else to do it for them. Sorry for the rant but just think about it.

Blue Water pro

http://islamiclawetc.wordpress.com/2007/01/29/capital-punishment-for-a-rape-victim/

Hmm, I don't hate muslims by a long shot. I dated a muslim girl for a while and got some insight into to culture. If you want to put your head in the sand its fine.

Sthlhead,

"Starvation, homelessness, disease, crime and violence"

Have you not read the papers or walked the streets of any metropolitan city.. These problems already exist.

We're all typing in english on this thread, but I would not say that it is unifying us in any way based on the opinions posted.

Unfortunately, we do have all those things!

I kind of see where your coming from.. But billionaire CEO's make up a miniscule portion of our society. Additionally most of the companies ran by billionaire CEO's provide health care to there employees. If you really want to see healthcare prices go down.. Change the laws to better protect doctors from ambulance chasing attorneys who drive up costs by suing doctors for everything.

You want to see health care prices go down quit charging US citizens more for drugs than the rest of the world pays. Drugs made here by US companies who get substantial tax breaks and rubber stamp approval by their shill called the FDA.

There was a time when health care was more affordable - before the HMO's. They are just another mouth to feed (a huge mouth) when we could just have doctors make the call on what a patient needs. Same with hospitals, too many administrators instead of healers. Rant, rant, rant...

Gee, I dunno, how about asking every other industrialized nation how they do it? I mean, being as how we're reputedly the richest nation and all.....

Rick, you're back! Nice to see you again!

GoHarley
You sticking around? Missed your posts

I'll be around increasingly more, I hope.

Huh Its pretty easy how they do it, they tax the sh!t out of everyone and take away the incentives for working hard..

Are you implying that no other industrialized nation's citizens work hard? And if they are taxed so heavily, why are there not more industrialized nations whose majority of citizens are in poverty? And if for-profit health care relies on the hope that people become gravely ill to increase the profit margin, does this not seem somewhat morally deficient?

Goharley,
The people of many european nations are taxed beyond beleive to pay for the socialized society they live in. A large portion of the population is at or below poverty. The employer wont even give jobs to the young because of the fact that you cant get rid of them once their foot is in the door. Hense the uneployment rate and the roits that have been happening year after year because the young cant get work. Their economies are stagnet and yes so is ours at the moment but our growth far outreaches any of the socialized societies besides maybe China which is a hole other discussion.
For-profit health care as you call it is what gets the best and brightest Dr's into the system and what creates the great advances that keep people from getting sick. No one in the health care system wants anyone to become "gravely ill" to make an increased profit. That is just sick and a sad oppinion of Dr's in general. Likely the same type of thought process that keeps people sue happy in this country leading to higher malpracitce costs that gets past on to the patients in higher treatment costs so hard working Drs can afford to stay in practice. And there is no moral dificancy in giving your life work to helping people live longer better lives and trying to make a living at it. Like it or not we have the best health care system in the world with the most advances and the best treatment. If your so impressed with all the systems in europe and asia, fly over the next time you need a serious surgery and see if it is as good as the US if you make it back at all.

AuntyM, I totally agree with you about one of the main problems with our school system.We got very adequate educations when I went to school and we even had classes taught by the principal who was actually the ONE principal for elementary,middle and high school. He had a "secretary" and one of the senior teachers filled in for him if he was gone for any reason. Then as time past the state and federal government got more and more involved (meddled) in the process and started adding positions to build thier empire.Now all these years later we have principals,vice principals,superintendents, and other heads of departments that actually perform only functions that justify thier job, but do nothing to teach the children.Did I mention that they all have staffs? I have gone to school board meetings to complain but have been shut down by the empire builders who are totaly convinced that if anything they need to hire more people because they are so overloaded. If it was a for profit company they would have been bankrupt long ago, but thanks to that never empty vat called taxes they go on and on.

A large part of our health care system has become one of inventing illnesses, conditions, what have you to explain common symptoms in order to sell drugs. "Are you tired?" "You just might have exhaustive neorosis disease. Ask your doctor if this new drug is right for you."

Another large market is side effects. Since our FDA rubber stamps drugs we are the guinea pigs. Often times the side effects of these drugs are worse than the condition and lead to other drugs to treat the side effects.

Myself I spent less than 24 hours in critical care last year. The bill came out to approximately $1,000 an hour. $16K total. I had one of the most expensive rooms on the planet.

Go Harley,
http://www.neoperspectives.com/swedishwelfare.htm

Look at sweden, You can pay 60% of your income in taxes plus 25% sales tax and get your perfect world. Oh wait Sh!t for GDP and no limited Military protection.

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."
Winston Churchill

Blue Water Pro

While the tonsils out losing a leg thing would suck, it rarely happens. The fact of the matter is that many professions in the medical trade aren't growing with demand because of out of control insurance rates. Being an OBGYN is scary because everyone sues them when something goes wrong with there pregnancy whether or not its the doc's fault.

Stlehead
It's worse then that, not all drugs in the pharmacy are even FDA approved.

willametteriveroutlaw

One thing to remember, you are locked into an American way of thinking. Europeans may pay more out of their pocket but they associate happiness with a healthy life and with having good friends and family, NOT how much money they have to buy toys.

The Swedish social welfare system is one of the best in the world. Every legal resident is covered by health insurance. Education is free. Every child gets free transportation, food in the school and 950 SEK/month till the age of 18. If you plan to have a baby, choose Sweden, you will get one-year fully paid leave, which can be shared by the parents.

Do you know how hard it is to get time off work in America when your wife has a kid, our entire value system is based off the buck to buy and not family.

Wow, 60% in taxes in return for health care, education, transportation, some vacation, etc. That leaves the average citizen with 40% disposable income. How many Americans can claim to have 40% disposable income after buying just health insurance? Most Americans can't afford to even put money in the bank or invest for retirement in the first place.

Since you make the claim that doctors are victimized by too much litigation, do you propose that the government step in and provide more regulation? Why is it, though, that the number of lawsuits has declined in relation to the cost of health care and insurance rising?

Why is it that Arizona seems to be the only state that does anything that makes any sense? They take stuff that the rest of the nation seems to turn into a huge moral debate about ethical treatment of illegal aliens and providing them with all the benefits of being a citizen without the woes of it. B.S. Good on Arizona. If they had salmon and steelhead runs and got more than a couple inches of rain a year with more trees I would live there.

I pay ~35% of my income and get all of the above.. ( I paid for college myself, which just took a little savings). Why would I want to pay an additional 30% for people who didn't get there [censored] together. What do you mean by transportation, I never saw where sweden buys there citizens a vehicle. Most americans can afford to save, they just choose not to in favor of material wealth.

I hate goverment regulation, but providing a cap on lawsuits would offer some savings to on rising medical costs.

Only 35% and you get complete 100% health care with zero deductible for your entire family? And you can also put your entire family through four years of college for that, too? And you're guaranteed at least two weeks of paid vacation? Wow.

Pardon my cynical nature, but I doubt it.

But if you are, great. You're obviously in a much more socialist environment than most Americans. And why would you want to pay a little extra for other Americans? I guess you'd have to ask that young mother who just lost the father of her kids to a drunk driver. Or ask that elderly couple that just got flooded out of their home in Lewis County or Grays Harbor County. Or maybe that guy with a family that just lost his job of 15 years because it was shipped offshore and his child was recently diagnosed with cancer. Ask them why they didn't have their [censored] together.

Or you can continue to be an "it's all about me" kinda guy. You can have your country as a collection of individuals, or you can have America as a country of individuals cooperatively creating a civilized society.



Bolagna. A better idea would be to put a salary cap on the CEOs of those insurance companies and pharmaceuticals. But consider if you had a single-payer system there wouldn't be insurance costs to rise because of lawsuits. I've had socialized health care for 26 years and pay less annually to insure my entire family than many people pay monthy.

Per capita there are more self-employed (read small business owners) in France than here in the United States, which economists say is a result of the high cost of health insurance here.

If I saved 5% of my income and invested it wisely, it wouldn't be a stretch pay for my theorhetical kids college.. I know my parents did it. I have 2 weeks paid vacation and my medical deductible, including a surgery I had last year ran me less than 2.5% of my total income. Including my additional tax free retirement savings (also could have tax free college savings if one of my boys breaks through the a rain coat) I would say my total after expenditures including taxes right now are under 30% of my income. Remember in sweden, besides the 60% income tax, there is a 25% built in sales tax as well. Good thing they have one of the lowest GDP's of any of the origional EU countries.





No its all just decent life planning and not expecting the Goverment to take care of me.




Oh yeah your programs will definately create a civilized society..
Fema takes care of flood victims.. And while the other cases you can call tear jerkers. The single mother will be taken care of (atleast in my state) The Oregon health plan and myriad of other social programs. As for the other ones, as for the other ones it sounds like he has a work ethic and will be back on his feet soon.



How much did you pay in taxes for your socialized medicine just out of curiosity?

The former employees and investors of Enron, WorldCom, Tyco, etc. got a good chuckle out of that.

Bet they wish they could have had something more secure like, oh, I dunno, Sweden? And speaking of that "25% sales tax," I wonder how that all works out given the value of the Euro to the dollar and built-in profit margins of American corporations. Also, because of the way the US computes its GDP, it is not the most accurate means of comparing countries.

Wanna buy a trailer real cheap? Today's FEMA is an example of what happens to well-meant organizations when they are overtaken by an "every man for himself" ideology.

I give you credit for being such an optimist concerning my hypothetical man who's lost his job and has a child stricken with cancer. But consider that having the greatest work ethic in the world does no good if there's no work to be had. Or because of the over abundance of unemployed, he cannot find a job paying what he used to make, or an employer that offers family health care coverage.

Monetarily, I pay no more in tax for my health coverage than any average middle-class American. The co-pay is less than $100 annually. So why can't more Americans have that?

"No its all just decent life planning and not expecting the Goverment to take care of me."

Just a guess but I bet the cost of your surgery was more than you've paid out of pocket for health insurance for yourself in your entire lifespan which means someone else "took care of you" you socialist.

"Wanna buy a trailer real cheap? Today's FEMA is an example of what happens to well-meant organizations when they are overtaken by an "every man for himself" ideology."

That is a wonderful distortion of the facts. Try to make it look like buying to many trailers is "every man for himself" ideas. The problem with Fema is they are the big brother program trying to use our money to fix problems would be better taken care of a state level by on the ground personal deciding what needs to be done(with our money). Fema thinks they can throw a hundred billion at the problem and that will fix it. Hense renting cruise ships that house 3000 and having 80 on board. Buying to many trailers no one ever used and sat there to rot. Using the dome to house people, ect ,ect ,ect. And in this fine socialized society, we bail them out so they can rebiuld BELOW SEA LEVEL and do it agian in 30 years.

"I pay no more in tax for my health coverage than any average middle-class American. The co-pay is less than $100 annually. So why can't more Americans have that?"

You have a job that offers it and that is great. I pay 100% of all my employees health care. But take another 10% in taxes from your employers and soon there is not money to do that anymore. Health care benefits might only cost you $100 but your employer paid through the nose(unless you work for the government then someone elses employer paid) Keep raising taxes and there will be no jobs or health care coverage because employees and health care are the two biggest expenses and will go first in cutbacks.

"But consider that having the greatest work ethic in the world does no good if there's no work to be had. Or because of the over abundance of unemployed"

I love people who do this as well. Everythings terrible, lifes so hard, no work, no pay, jobs over seas. These are the same people who said how great it was in the nineties when the unemployment rate was 5.2%. Hense party affiliation. Now it is 4.9% which use to be concidered full employment and everyone is out of work. Job maket is flooded, No jobs blah blah blah. Once again, party affiliation. For the 4.9%, there are always jobs to be had if they want them. Might not be the same exact job they had or even need to take a pay cut but they are out there and you take what you can get and keep looking for something better. When it comes along and it will you jump at it. Work you way up or go get trained to do something diferent. The money is there is grants, loans and handouts(one of the variety I dont mind giving if someone is trying to better themselves) to do jsut that. But saying everything was wonderful in the nineties an terrible now is just plain B.S. and shows you will never be happy if your party can take the credit.

The problem with FEMA is that some jacka$$ appointed another jacka$$ to run it. He in turn awarded no bid contracts to fellow jacka$$'s. So we ended up with a whole lot of cronies fattening up at the trough while people were dying. As a taxpayer you should be appalled.

The 80's were worse than the 90's. The 2000's are worse than the 90's. What's your point? You contridict yourself here. According to you there are plenty of jobs, meaning employees have a lot of options, meaning if you are "forced" to cut health care employees can and will readily move on and work for someone who does offer healthcare. Net result in your world is only you, the employer, loses. Right?

BTW, you do know that unemployment figures do not include those who have run out of unemployment and still not found a job don't you? They also do not reflect those who have been forced out of desperation to take a significant pay cut just to survive. Kind of like the false inflation numbers.

No Stlhead what I said is if you raise taxes and take away profits so business have to make cuts, they will. If you dont get that I dont know how to explain it to you. And no I did not say the 2000's are worse if you read it.....I said that the impression is worse and it comes from what party you are with, not tough to tell from you. There is no contridiction. I did not say the job market is wide open. I said there are jobs and you take what you can get until something better comes up. i said that the #'s are better than the nineties and people who say clinton was teh worlds greatest for his job numbers now complain about better #s than there were then. And they use the same way of finguring teh #s that they did then.
As far as employees having options, they do. they can come and go if they like but we give every benefit adn none have. If we are forced to make cuts due to taxes it is sad but I am not dumb enough to think they would not move on. I hope it does not come to that because they are like family as we are a small business. My point was if we get killed with taxes then some would be let go making the job market much worse. This is economy wide when it happens. Employers loose profits and go into black=employees loose jobs and health care. Bad situation made worse.
The no bid contract thing is funny. I am sure you screamed that the response wasnt fast enough.....impeach bush right, hates black people, blow up the levee. Then you complain about not getting bids adn corporate fat cats(They did have bids after the inicial response by the way....look it up). But when you need a fast response you dont send bids to a government agency as they cant get out of there own way and to busy making political points and would rather hurt the other party than help the people(both parties). Lastly, I am sure you are the same guy that screamed about us not getting the contract for the fuel tankers because we got under bid. Lets get Bush for that too. You cant have it both ways to say they dont get bids then say how dare they when you dont like the outcome. I think that we should always get bids and the best bid and product get it. Capitalism at its finest.

"I pay no more in tax for my health coverage than any average middle-class American. The co-pay is less than $100 annually. So why can't more Americans have that?"

You have a job that offers it and that is great. I pay 100% of all my employees health care. But take another 10% in taxes from your employers and soon there is not money to do that anymore. Health care benefits might only cost you $100 but your employer paid through the nose(unless you work for the government then someone elses employer paid) Keep raising taxes and there will be no jobs or health care coverage because employees and health care are the two biggest expenses and will go first in cutbacks.

I'll say this once again. Our health care package where I work is negociated as part of a total wage package. Nothing is "given" to us, we defer wages into the health care package.

Depends on the purpose of the taxes. You are a small business and are thinking on that scale. Billions of our tax dollars are awarded corporate America commonly under the guise of "creating jobs". So, one could twist that into "taxes are good" "raising taxes will create jobs". If taxes are for providing health care then it just might lower your health care burden as a business. Myself I feel I pay way too much in taxes and big business pay's way too little. I feel there are too many loop holes and deductions for everybody but me it seems. But I'm not dumb enough to not think we won't have to all pay the piper due to a completely inept administrtation and it's policies.

Numbers do lie....the middle class has been under attack. Yes they do use the same way of figuring. A job is a job. They don't account for the fact that decent wage jobs have disappeared and have been replaced with just above poverty level wages. Add rampant inflation and the devaluation of the dollar and it's not a pretty picture. Why should we care if a small business, run by someone who supports this climate, goes out of business? You can find another job just like anyone else right?

Impeach Bush? That's only a start. I want him tried for treason. And it has little to do with Katrina but I think you need to do your homework. The rebuilding was a sham full of no-bid contracts. Do a search. Katrina is but one of an almost near perfect score of complete incompetence, failures and down right treasoness actions in my book.

The tanker bid I think should have factored in what country our tax dollars are going to benefit which it didn't. Would a factor of that sort have changed the outcome? Who knows. But it's pretty eye opening to see our military awarding contracts for equipment to foreign entities. Maybe the failures of KBR and Halliburton have soured them on quasi-U.S. corporations?

Then why are wages on average lower in Socialist countries (i.e. sweden france etc) than the US?

And why do they get over three weeks of guaranteed paid vacation annually? Why is the cost of living relatively equal? Why is the Euro worth twice that of the dollar? Why aren't they dieing left and right because of socialized medicine? Why are they considered healthier? Why is the number of people out of work relatively equal to that of America? Why isn't there rampant poverty?

And for Doc... Why is there a higher percentage of small business owners in France then the US?

So many questions, so few answers.

France, Sweden, and all of the other countries that provide health care and people friendly benefits are not socialist countries. A true socialist regime emphasizes the collective and ignores the rights of individuals and those in power are generally very corrupt. None of the countries mentioned in this thread are socialist countries and are far from it.

We have the most expensive health care system in the world, but yet we lag behind Canada and most European countries in infant mortality and life expectancy. 47 million people go without health care because they cannot afford it and untold numbers get limited health coverage. I think questioning such a system is not only proper, but the kind of conversation this country should be having. You bet we should re-think this sucker and by doing so does not make anyone a socialist.

Not sure what that has to do with my point, but on to your question. Because of the higher rate of vacations and time off in European countries that means that there are more hours paid for that are not actual work hours, because of the end price of the manufactured item is basically fixed it means that the price for a hour of labor most be less to carry the burden of more time off.

I'd like to point out that we are all paying for those uninsured 47 million people either through taxes (medicare or similar public assistance) or higher insurance premiums. There is no escaping it, so why not get rid of HMO's - cut out the hugantic middle man that is screwing both hospitals/doctors and us?

The difference is now we're paying for reactive medicine via the Emergency Room, rather than paying for preventative medicine, which is significantly cheaper.

So yes, WRO, you're ALREADY paying for the uninsured. Only now, you're paying for it in its most expensive form.

And if you're real lucky, the night you get in a car accident, the ER will be so overwhelmed by the uninsured, that they'll not have the resources to save your life because 25 people are already in the ER.

It's best not to be penny-wise and pound-foolish.

This is the same for most of Boeing.

Yes, and I've heard employers often times say that the pay check is only a small part of your overall incentive package.

403 more posts and counting down Aunty!

I don't believe everything that i think

I have long maintained that the one thing that will bring this nation to its' knees is the cost of providing healthcare to public employees and thier dependents. In the private sector, there is and has been a "product" that has in the price a portion of the profit that helps pay for these costs. In the public sector jobs (which the number of is in a constant state of increase) there is very little product.As the Baby Boomers hit the retirement age and are living longer, it will take an ever growing amount of the tax base to support these costs. I believe we are only one bad investment by those in charge of these plans to wipe out the reserves and put a lot of people out in the cold as far as thier coverage goes.
I have known only a few firemen and policemen who have retired any older than 50.Add in the retired servicemen who get out after 20-25 years and are only in thier late 40s. As medical costs increase the money to pay for it must increase also.It's a downward spiral. Just my take on it.

Too many people have blinders on. If every other industrialized nation can provide healthcare to its citizens, why--can't--we? Just healthcare. Not education, not mass transit. Just healthcare. As a "Christian nation," why won't we?

People saw Sicko and fell for the concept of care recieved in Cuba for one place. Do you think that was real or just an excellent commercial for the Castro political machine?

Rumor has it that when Aunty hits 10,000 posts the software on the board is not set up for it and the board will crash.

It's Y2K all over again.

BWP,

Some good words there my man. I've heard from sources I thought credible that as affluent as we are as a nation, we really can't afford (on top of all the other national expenses we deem essential) the same high quality of health care that the middle class and up receive for every American and eligible alien. Yet our laws preventing the non-treatment option push health care costs to the brink of disaster.

I still think there's room among rational thinkers (currently estimated by me at about 5% of the nation's population -grin-) for a national plan that approximates what Oregon tried to do in the early 90s. The effort was led by a doctor turned state legislator. They prioritized every medical treatment on a list between 500+, with preventative measures at the top and "comfort" treatment for terminally ill, like AIDs and cancer patients. The plan required all of the state's health resource budget plus its share of federal Medicaid. Congress said no, so the plan went no where. But it's the closest to a viable universal health care plan anybody in the US has ever tried to advance. It acknowledges the broad social benefit of providing health care to all citizens, and that preventive medicine is the most cost effective medical treatment, and realizes that we cannot prevent people from dying, but can make them comfortable when they are. Clearly such a humane and cost effective health plan is out of synch with the majority of Americans who will only accept something that's not feasible, socially or financially, or remotely realistic.

Oregon has shown us that there is a smarter way to do universal health care, but it's so smart it lacks appeal to the irrational American majority.

Sg

I trust you have credible studies showing Americans actually know what level of care others receive. And they no doubt show the length of lines one stands in, or the waiting time for care. (Are they really shorter than emergency rooms here?) Of course that would mean these Americans would have actually had to experience care from another country and such, rather than simply follow blindly the Ayn Rand-esque rhetoric of neocon pundits.

A higher infant mortality rate, worse overall health, shorter life expectancy... all from easily found studies. Yet, I am amazed at how Americans choose to remain ignorant by continuing to follow the healthcare for profit agenda.

You know I already have, and it's virtually no different than what people complain about here. People will complain, regardless. But the studies clearly show that the United States falls behind other countries in matters relating to healthcare.

AM, you have virtually the same healthcare I do. I thank the Lord everyday for being so fortunate, and I want to see my fellow Americans as blessed as I. I don't understand why you wouldn't want your fellow citizens to be as secure in their healthcare as you are.

Oh, so this is simply sour grapes derived by adverse reactions to some treatment. I'm sure you first discussed the inherent risks of that treatment with your doctor, no?

Following your example, then, there should be millions of Americans in the for-profit healthcare system that are just as vehemently campaigning against the present US system.

I'll guarantee you that there are tens of thousands of Americans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan daily that wouldn't trade their healthcare for any other.

I have personal experience with health care in Canada, as my wife is Canadian and we have a lot of relatives up there. Our family ranges from my wife's 90 year old Grandma to our 5 year old Grandson. Healthcare is not free in Canada. You pay according to what you make. I have had my wife in the ER up in New Westminster and in Overlake ER. I was pretty impressed with the quality of care she got in New West and not so impressed with the miss-diagnosis she got at Overlake.

Yes, there are lines for non-life threatning treatments like knee replacement, shoulder surgery etc., however for anything life threatening the care is instant and excellent. Some Provinces are better then others. The care in Alberta is much better then in B.C., according to my wife and now her mother who moved to B.C. last year from Alberta.

The only complaints I have heard from Canadians is that private health care is starting to worm it's way in. There was a lot of controversy over a private clinic that opened in Vancouver a couple of years ago. The idea is being sold on the concept that it will relieve the lines for non-life threatning treatment, but instead it will probably draw Doctors away from the public system.

Is their system perfect? No. Is our system perfect? No. Read today's Times about the shortage of Primary Care Physicians down here. Apparently there isn't enough money in Primary Care.

I have 100% paid for top of the line health Insurance through my employer. The premium is around $1200 a month. Since my wife moved down here she has had numerous MRIs trying to diagnose a back problem, that still goes un-diagosed, but Docs here have no problem spending my employer's insurance. She was actually healthier under the Canadian system.

I realize it is a nearly impossible task to re-do our healthcare system and I am not advocating one thing over another. Our system and Canada's have their pluses and minuses. But if you are looking at overall longevity and quality of life, our system is not the leader, except in costs.

What about our senior citizens that live below the poverty level and are thrown in isolation, so I say take a senior citizen fishing in your area, they have alot of great stories for us and should all be taken noticed. I have a Grand mother in law that is over 100 years old and I take her to church every Sunday so thats why you don't see many pictures or post from me about fishing because I sacrifice one of my 2 days off so I can take this fine lady somewhere she needs to be and devote my time for her so she can be in good company. She's too old for fishing ,but tells me the times when she was a young girl and used to fish the Eochoman, Grays and Naselle rivers when there was no cars , just horses and the Steelhead and Salmon that abound in the rivers in those days . She is the last of the Pioneers of the Cathlamet area. If you ever fish out of Cathlamet , stop at the museum there and checkout the old photos of draft horses pulling in huge Chinook in nets!

Now you're just embarrassing yourself, AM. You post links to stories about a medical facility that was placed on the base closure list years ago. It only became important and needed again after your hero went on his cowboy rampage. Naturally Walter Reed was in poor repair because of neglect, since it was scheduled to close there was no need to put money into it.

Speaking of making an ass out of yourself, I knew it was your husband you were referencing--I remember you posting about it when it was happening. But why blame the entire VA medical system for something one doctor did? Were you not advised of the risks before the procedure? I know I always am, and if I choose to proceed, I have accepted the risks. It's all part of that "taking responsibility" thing you R's are always preaching.

And as far as:
I believe I'll just take the advice of your tagline.

Sadly, you've become a 19%er.

I've taken this to a personal level??

I'm really disappointed in what you've become these last two years, AM.

Not that I believe my opinion holds any weight here...

Whew! Here's an "interesting" article by a doctor in my local community regarding what physicians face regarding insurance and patient care:

http://www.newsreview.com/chico/Content?oid=646939

AM, don't you think the military medical system is tracked and reported on alot more closely then the public health care system? Think a public hospital is going to willingly make public it's mistakes?

I agree with GH, you're starting to lean so far right you are going to fall down. Harder to see when you're only using the right eye.

Yeah but I attribute that to the overall lack of planning in the "rush to war".

The problems with care-for-profit treatment has been there all along, too. Just a couple of weeks ago an 18 year old woman died from one of the most routine surgeries in the nation--breast augmentation. Last weekend there was a large article in the local paper about medication mistakes to infants; 1 out of 15 kids are harmed by medicine mix ups in hospitals. Dana Carvey's surgeon bypassed the wrong artery in his heart.

The National Academy of Sciences' Institute of Medicine estimates as many as "98,000 Americans die each year not from the medical conditions they checked in with, but from preventable medical errors."

But my original point remains; the statistics do not support the belief that socialized medical care is substandard, just as the statistics and empirical evidence refutes the opinion that VA care is substandard as compared to for-profit medical care.


By the way:

Can you point out those outright lies?

War AND politics are tragedies...

So, McCain touched off that missile? And that's why he spent all those years at the Hanoi Hilton?

As a disabled veteran who uses the facilities at American Lake,I have recieved very good treatment there and am very confident in the staff I have dealt with.Every doctor has been proffessional and actually has taken the time to make me feel that my time and concerns are being addressed . I know all the horror storys must have some merit, but have to ask myself if it is more in the line of a persons expectations being more than what is there to offer. I was told once that we all have greater opinions of our selves than is realistic. Put your finger in a glass of water, pull it out and see how long the hole lasts.I have also recieved care at civilian facilities and have had the isolated occasion to recieve what I deemed to be subpar care. It does not mean the system is broken, just that particular day.
I fail to see where it is writen that all people are ENTITLED to adequate health care. Some things you should have to earn and be willing to sacrifice to attain if that is what you desire. I honestly believe it is all about choices and what is truely important to you. I used to read articles by Bruce Williams (a financial "advisor") often his answer to the people who were in deep debt was..
1.How many hours a day do you work now?
2. Do you smoke,drink,etc.?
Then he would ask if they had thought about a 2nd job to get caught up,even if it was part time. You can change your situation if you want to and are willing to make the sacrifices necessary to do it.

While I am on my rant, can someone please explain to me why it is so much more patriotic to have been a POW than to have just served in the armed forces. I know it will rile some of the lemmings, but what is so heroic about having been captured? I am not belittling anyone who has had to endure this situation. I had an uncle who was shot down over Germany (tail gunner) and survived in a POW camp. I talked to him and his opinion was the heroes were the ones who didn't make it back home alive. God Bless John Mccain and all those who were POW's ,but they are not heroes in my book.Hollywood has given us this tainted opinion of what a true hero is much to the diservice of the real heroes.

My father in law passed away at American Lake. A retired Major and combat veteran of three wars. I visited many times and felt his care was pretty good versus what you would have seen in civilian facilities unless you are rich.

"I fail to see where it is writen that all people are ENTITLED to adequate health care."

You don't think all children in the US should be entitled to health care? The most common argument why countries with a national health care system have better over all health than the US is the early preventative care that begins in childhood. And, even here in the US, there is growing opinion that preventative care lowers over all costs in the long run.

It's always that ounce of prevention isn't it?

My personal gripe is a classic example of insurance BS. I have a cracked molar and some bone loss at that tooth. The dentist will not crown the tooth until a periodontist does some grafting/seeding of bone. My company pays 100% for dental, but the insurance considers the bone regrowth "elective" and won't cover the procedure - my cost = $800 to $1000. That's a lot of quality fishing dollars. So the insurance company would rather that I lost the tooth or live in continued discomfort. Fargin iceholes!!! It's all about the money.....

Fishing versus a tooth....tie the tooth to your downrigger and yank the bastard.

Yes, but will the tooth catch fish? Remember no gold crown on it yet as an attractor!

I think it comes down to the sacrifice for the country that people recognise laterun. It is not that McCain is more heroic than the others who serve but having been beaten, tortured and never denouncing his country like many others do means something about a mans toughness and character. I have never heard anyone say he is more heroic than those who fought beside him or god forbid, those who sacrificed even more. What he endured is what people realize on both sides of the political spectrum.
There are those people who get their headlines from places like moveon.org that say what they say but they are so off that they make themselves irrelivant. Sad because those are the same people who championed him before as the only republican people should listen to that hate him now he got the GOP nod. The old knife you in the back croud.

No I don't.

Your avatar speaks for itself dude

Docspud, I know what you mean about his character and I would probably vote for him as there is really no choice on the demo. side. Same old story, how many millions of people to chose from and this is the choice?,give me a break.That being said, I am always turned off by the political spots that bring up his time in captivity for the sympathy(?) angle. These are the same pundits who pushed so hard to keep GW's military time out of the issue and off the plate for discussion. Like any other dodgers who went to college,Canada,NG,or got deferments for flatfeet and such,I would never,ever vote for one of them. Too many young men died in Vietnam to support the system that allowed this to happen. When I was drafted,the star running back (fullback) that I had just graduated with got a deferment because his dad knew someone to call to get a doctor to say he was not fit. I know this for a fact and although we were very good friends, I never spoke to him since 1966.

Stlhead, yes,I think it would be a good idea if all children had health care until 18. But it should be contingent upon them staying in school and out of trouble. There need to be incentives attached to any rewards. We have such a high dropout rate in this country that it does no good to complain about the illegals and the outsourcing of jobs if we continue to have no one to fill the upper level positions. Microsoft would be glad to hire locally if they could find people with the skills required.We put so much effort into our kids excelling in sports that the academics get a backseat.

Hey everybody, AM's a liar.

Here's the only thing I ever said about the USS Forrestal:
"By the way, do some research on the USS Forrestal."
Even in your rhetorical hyperbolic delusion, how do you come up with the conclusion that I stated he was responsible from that one sentence? Aren't you the one that just recently made a directed comment about ASSumptions?

I never once used the word "war crime" or even "treason" for that matter towards McCain. I simply stated the fact that he violated Article V of the Code of Conduct. And it's no smear campaign because he admits he did it:
After being periodically slapped around for "three or four days" by his captors who wanted military information from him, McCain called for an officer on his fourth day of captivity. He told the officer, "O.K., I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital." -U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by former POW John McCain

McCain was taken to Gai Lam military hospital normally unavailable to American POWS. (U.S. government documents)

"Demands for military information were accompanied by threats to terminate my medical treatment if I [McCain] did not cooperate. Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant." Page 193-194, Faith of My Fathers by John McCain.

Nov. 9, 1967 (U.S. government documents) Hanoi press began quoting him giving specific military information.

One report dated read, "To a question of the correspondent, McCain answered: 'My assignment to the Oriskany, I told myself, was due to serious losses in pilots, which were sustained by this aircraft carrier (due to its raids on the North Vietnam territory - VNA) and which necessitated replacements. From 10 to 12 pilots were transferred like me from the Forrestal to the Oriskany. Before I was shot down, we had made several sorties. Altogether, I made about 23 flights over North Vietnam.'"

In that report, McCain was quoted describing the number of aircraft in his flight, information about rescue ships, and the order of which his attack was supposed to take place.

That last fact is why I opined that what he did was worse than Fonda. She may have sympathized with the enemy, but she never gave away sensitive information to the enemy.

I, too, find it questionable why he's considered a hero after all things considered concerning his time in captivity and actions upon returning home.

Barf

"Microsoft would be glad to hire locally if they could find people with the skills required."

Not true. Corps like Microsoft used to train people locally. Now they open mass campuses in foreign countries like India where labor is cheap and train there then whine about lack of talent here. Who in their right mind would get a comp sci degree these days when you can see the hand writing on the wall....those jobs aren't coming back until the pay is so crappy it ain't worth it.

BTW, I would never consider health care a reward. It should be a basic right which is good for society as a whole in the long run. Healthy kids mean healthy adults. Better workers and less of a drain on society. If every child and adult were allowed an annual physical think of the long term benefits. "You blood sugar is getting low so we need to regulate that". Right there could mean that twenty years down the road we don't have someone suffering from severe diabetes, can't function and drawing welfare or disability. In this example a $100, or whatever, physical saved $100K or more.

"O.K., I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital." -U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by former POW John McCain
How is that not collusion? Fonda was never charged with treason either, so saying my opinion of what he did is worse does in no way imply I believe his actions were treasonous. Another assumption by you.

What conditions must be taken into account to determine whether the CoC was violated? I've read it for years and have never seen any conditions written. It's pretty binary.

The report said, "McCain was quoted describing the number of aircraft in his flight, information about rescue ships, and the order of which his attack was supposed to take place. "
And you said, "...remarks that endangered no one's life at the time..."
Now that is funny. Your naive ignorance is almost cute.

"By the way" means simply look at the facts surrounding a subject. I didn't say he was responsible for the Forrestal fire, but obviously many of his shipmates did on the site you chose to read. Ergo, there is speculation by some that he was directly involved with its cause. However, another historical site doesn't even mention that he was assigned to the ship. I found that odd considering his notoriety. There's no irrefutable proof that he either was or was not involved. Smart discerning readers look at both sides when doing investigative research.

I can't smear McCain, your party already did in 2000. I have merely posted excerpts of what the R's have said earlier, or quotes from McCain himself. I'm simply reminding people of what your party has already said. It's your inherent hypocrisy that will not allow you to understand that.

Yet you are a fervent McCain supporter and will undoubtedly vote Republican. Others, too, have noticed you've become a hypocritically inconsistent partisan hack putting party before country-- and now you're playing the victim card.
Very sad.

Stlhead ,I just read an article about Microsoft and thier need for so many visas, the guy in the interview said it was because they could not fill the positions in the local area and would be happy to do so if the qualified people were available. Guess he must have been just giving lip service to the situation.

[quote=AuntyM
I think it's going to take something catastrophic in this nation to change our course. Another depression, a pandemic etc. and we will be forced to make those changes. I don't see it happening because Hillary or anybody else wills it though. The industry is too strong and powerful. [/quote]

+1

According to Michael Moore's movie F/911, Hillary's biggest PAC contributor is the health insurance industry - "you become what you resist" is a saying that comes to me often when talking about politics/bureaucracy.

When has the goverment ever done anything better or more efficiently than private enterprise?

"Stlhead ,I just read an article about Microsoft and thier need for so many visas, the guy in the interview said it was because they could not fill the positions in the local area and would be happy to do so if the qualified people were available. Guess he must have been just giving lip service to the situation. "

Yes lip service. It's Bill Gates's annual lobbying to have the cap lifted on H1B visas so they can import foreigners who work for less and are a form of slave labor. If an H1B visa holder loses his job he is deported. That's a big hold on an employee that they don't have over a citizen. Also, the big outsourcing companies like to cycle the H1B visas. Meaning they send a different person each time. That person learns at Microsoft and goes back to India and teaches to others on a paid for by Microsoft campus. Where's the big Microsoft teaching institution here? Why doesn't Microsoft invest in our Universities if it want's talent? Salaries are now rising in India so what happens? Russia, Poland, China but no investment in rearing US talent. Why? All about the bottom line and, yes, lip service.

You are correct there.. Although as the haliburton thing goes, from what I understand (most likely worng) they pick a contractor to do emergency work every year (in cases where the competitive bid process wouldn't work) and choose to go with them. Haliburton just got lucky and did what any GC with an open work ticket would do. To my understanding there are only 3 or 4 GC's in the world big enough to do this work.

Yeah.

It was luck.

And the moon is made of cheese.

Just a thought... the military used to be self contained for all operations (food, logistics, etc.) but now relies on outsourcing. What if those supply corporations went bankrupt?

I'm thinkin' UPS (no, not United Pot Smokers) - talk about for profit efficiency!

OMG.....another thread hijacked by those pesky boneless brown trout!!!

You can thank Clinton for cutting Military spending .. That being said though, the rebuilding process is usually done by an outside contractor from my limited knowledge.

Shouldn't a blaming Clinton post be over on the worn out sayings thread?

Oh no, I was referring to actual ongoing military operations, not rebuilding. And while all fascists may be considered bigots, not all bigots are fascists

+1

Ehh, shouldn't saying bush is an Idiot be over there too? People seem to quickly forget how many US troops were over seas under UN control during Clintons time. And all of the military spending that went to those escapades. So in reality Spending under clinton went down slightly, but there were still several costly little "peace keeping" missions going on funded directly by US tax payers.

One of my closes friends was in Bosnia for 2 years under Clinton getting shot at. Not saying its as bad as the current fisco, but its not too great.

Nope.

Check back in eight years.

"UN control"

Too bad Bush didn't bother to get the world behind him huh?

Too bad the voices of the critics were silenced by "you must not be a patriot if you don't want to stop Sadaam from coming over here". Does anyone really believe that Iraq had anything to do with 9-11? The highjackers were Saudis'.