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#448948 - 08/20/08 01:54 PM Re: 52 seconds [Re: Salmo g.]
Chuck E Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 1832
Loc: Kitsap Peninsula
"instead we should look forward to paying for Shaquanda's illigetimate kids, drug rehab, and countless other worthless social programs."

So, based on your post, you are ok with corporate welfare, tax subsidies for sports teams, farm subsidies and that sort of thing. How do you feel about the money unaccounted for in Irag? The 'welfare' going to line pockets of the corps that have that money is way more than anything going to support welfare kids. Also, it may amaze you but not all people on welfare are people of color such as your veiled 'Shaquanda' comment would suggest.

Your "Tool" tag line certainly is correct.
_________________________
"I didn't care what she didn't 'low--I would boogie-woogie anyhow" John Lee Hooker

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#448955 - 08/20/08 02:16 PM Re: 52 seconds [Re: Chuck E]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27838
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Of all the types of welfare out there that the U.S. taxpayers are emptying their wallets for, Shanequa's kids and rehab probably comprises less than 10%...the rest goes to lining the pockets of big corporations.

For some reason the anti-welfare RWWJ's don't seem to mind that so much...after all, those big corporations are really just looking out for the consumer...right?

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#448956 - 08/20/08 02:16 PM Re: 52 seconds [Re: Chuck E]
stlhead Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6732
Depreciation is a corp subsidy. Why am I footing the bill to give XYZ Corp "incentives" to do anything?

I also paid a sales tax on my car/house and fees/property tax. Shouldn't I be allowed to depreciate?

Especially when it comes to taxes Corporations are treated as a living breathing US citizen when it is to it's benefit and as an non-human entity when it's also to it's benefit.
_________________________
"You learn more from losing than you do from winning." Lou Pinella

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#448961 - 08/20/08 02:36 PM Re: 52 seconds [Re: stlhead]
docspud Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 1557
Loc: Silverdale Wa
Depreciation is bullshiat. It does no good anyway. You buy 100k worth of equipment and then you get to depreciate it over 20years. Great! I save 5 grand that I dont have to pay tax on. That saves me roughly 2K a year. When you expenses run into teh hundreds of thousands.....2k doesnt help the bottom line. I think a flat tax that was say 25% rather than 40% of income would likely help out a lot more. And yes those making less should have to pay their share as well. If they make 20K they pay 25%. 5K it is. No deductions no loopholes. If the other guy makes 400K they pay 25%. 100k it is. No deductions no loopholes. You make more you pay more...fine. But the one making 400k shoulld not pay 45%. Not 180k and the other guy pays nothing. That is B.S.
And much more than 10% of that pie goes to social programs. The lining of the corp pockets is a huge problem and should stop as well. But that problem is no bigger than the social leaches that eat off the system. I know they are easy to get to the poling place because they dont work but even the Dems should want to reform the system and quit playing to it to win elections. Just like the wackos on hte far right should stop playing to the fear crowd.
_________________________
Never leave a few fish for a lot of fish son.....you just might not find a lot of fish-----Theo

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#448979 - 08/20/08 03:14 PM Re: 52 seconds [Re: docspud]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10878
Loc: McCleary, WA
So when my client just bought a $66,000 US made flat bed trailer to haul finished wood products because the depreciation on his old trailer has gone to zero, that does nothing to stimulate the economy, provide jobs, and keep the economic engine of the US going? He wouldn't have purchased that equipment had there not been an incentive to do so. This is one guy with annual revenues of $190,000. That isn't net income, that is gross dollars accounted for for miles driven. He invested 35% of his gross revenues in new equipment.

Add in all of the other equipment purchased annually because of this, then deduct that from overall production. You will see unemployment go up big time.

Take away amortization and you will see the value of any going concern, also known as blue sky or good will, drop. This means a lot to the owner of a mom&pop business, folks who make a living wage, but certainly are not rich.

Yes, some items that are deductible are BS. Some are not.

In a perfect world a true flat tax would exist, but as long as there are politicians on both sides of the aisle, there will always be ass hattery.
_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"

They call me POODLE SMOLT!

The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.

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#448982 - 08/20/08 03:22 PM Re: 52 seconds [Re: Dogfish]
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 16958
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
Quote:
but as long as there are politicians on both sides of the aisle, there will always be ass hattery.


Spoken like a true wordsmith. rofl thumbs
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

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#449000 - 08/20/08 04:20 PM Re: 52 seconds [Re: Dan S.]
stlhead Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6732
It's not the taxpayers job to stimulate (prop up) the economy. Taxes are to run the government, the nations infrastructure, support the military, etc. Not give Joe Blow a break on doing business. If he didn't buy the new trailer he would buy one eventually or go out of business, raise prices, etc. If he went out of business and there's a real need for that business then someone else would step in to replace him. If not then maybe the only thing holding that line of work up were us taxpayers. Same with trailer manufacturers....maybe less trailers would be made because there really isn't a need for so many new ones unless subsidies are involved.

"Take away amortization and you will see the value of any going concern, also known as blue sky or good will, drop."
No the current value is artificially inflated thanks to the taxpayer.
_________________________
"You learn more from losing than you do from winning." Lou Pinella

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#449038 - 08/20/08 07:19 PM Re: 52 seconds [Re: stlhead]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10878
Loc: McCleary, WA
You ever study economics? I wouldn't want to live in your world when you become king and institute all of your changes. Collapse would occur in short order.

The answer lies somewhere in the middle, not the fringe.
_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"

They call me POODLE SMOLT!

The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.

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#449061 - 08/20/08 11:21 PM Re: 52 seconds [Re: stlhead]
Fast and Furious Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 3116
Originally Posted By: stlhead
"Democrats want to raise taxes on dividends and that means everyone who wants to retire."

Mr. Uber rich who owns 5 million shares of XYZ which pays a dollar dividend per share per year and has no other income pays...drum roll please...15% tax. You think that's fair?
*********************************************************************************************************************************

both you were born into the same political system, educational system, economic system and even if his parents are doing better than yours, you obviously think that HE should pay more than you. Thats because you want what he has, or you are petty and jeolous, or lazy and stupid, so you vote for a pimp to take his money and give it too you. Why are you so special? You didnt do your homework and he did. You got some chick drunk and pregnant and he had his nose in a medical book, or law book, or engineering book, or working 12-16 hours in front of a computer, who belonged to a major company that paid stock options.

How about telling the politicians to stop spending EVERYONES money. All the taxes, Like Labor and industries, state taxes come out of your wages. He can afford to pay you 20 per hour. Subtract the taxes and you get whats left. All business works on formulas. Restaurants run on 30% food cost to cover the rent, wages, etc.
Many employees are paid 10% of the revenue they bring in.

And of course investments are usually after tax money except for Roth accounts and a few others.
*************************************************************************************************************************************
Warren Buffet also has said if the top corporations paid taxes at the current corporate rate then no US citizen would have to pay any tax.
*************************************************************************************************************************************8
Warren Buffet talks out both sides of his mouth. Warren Buffet contributes money to candidates like every other business and they are looking for PROTECTION against the government and an tax deductions. It can be as simple as an excelerated depreciation schedule for cars and equipment. How big is the tax code? Bigger than the bible, for one thing. If its not explaining a tax, its explaining a deduction. If you dont like deductions, step up and stop claiming your deduction for your home, kids, sales tax in washington, medical expenses, moving expenses, employment expenses. YOU dont pay the full tax rate EITHER. How many guys here file for the gas tax refund for their outboard? Business is NO different. When someone like Dick Armey or Steve Forbes comes along and talk about getting rid of the IRS and simplification of the tax system, politicians dont want that. They cant buy your vote if everyone pays the same. So tell me, what make you so special, you shouldnt be required to pay the same tax as everyone else. Youre obviously not towing the line. Get off the wagon and pull.
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Offshoring is not just about cheap labor. It also includes lax environmental laws and sheltering $$ from US taxes. In other words we lose jobs, the tax revenue and the infusion into social security. Bottom line it's greed.

*************************************************************************************************************************************
Foreign countries have tax rates also. Its not free. Gary Loomis set up his camp in Russia and they wanted PAYOLLA BABY! Thats greed. ya, govt regulation can cripple business. People like competition. If Govt doesnt have to compete, business will not survive and you have a complete waste land. Hey come to MICHIGAN FOR BUSINESS. We lose jobs when WE arent competitive with the rest of the world. You charge a tariff and the other country charges you a tariff. Are you greedy if the rate of inflation is 4% and you were offered a new position with a competitor and you tell your boss, it will cost him another 200 dollars a week to keep you? You know why your social security payments keep going up? Because your parents and grandparents or your neighbor is telling the politicians to give them a cost of living increase. So, the govt no longer counts gasoline and food and a couple other items when figuring the rate of inflation.

You can be unhappy or just realize, this country offers opportunity, not results. Only communism offers results.
Either way, you go to work.


Edited by Lead Bouncer (08/20/08 11:23 PM)

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#449062 - 08/20/08 11:42 PM Re: 52 seconds [Re: Salmo g.]
Fast and Furious Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 3116
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Pensions are leading to the collapse of many American companies? Or poor management of pensions is leading . . .

Pensions are part of employees compensation, as in deferred compensation. If pensions are collapsing companies, then those companies really couldn't afford, and shouldn't have been hiring labor with the promise of the deferred comp.




and Ford and GM should have known better.

And if you worked for pacific northwest bell, you pension was stolen. Pension were considered part of the company assets for a long time. Are they now? Pensions are not generally offered anymore to my knowledge.

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#449063 - 08/20/08 11:45 PM Re: 52 seconds [Re: ]
Big_Daddy
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: blue water pro
............
Land & Buildings are not depreciated for business they appreciates & tax is paid......................


Buildings are most certainly depreciable. The tax affect comes at the time of sale when the the gain or loss on the sale is calculated.

Sales price less "basis" (original purchase price less accumulated depreciation) equals net gain or loss on the sale of the building.

The land portion is not depreciable.

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#449068 - 08/21/08 12:38 AM Re: 52 seconds [Re: ]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10878
Loc: McCleary, WA
Big Daddy is correct on buildings. Land is not depreciable.

I would argue that depreciation is an incentive to upgrade equipment. You have a choice as a business owner where depreciation and taxes are concerned.

Banker math 101. (time to put down the bong folks, this is a story problem)

Let's say I am about to make $80,000 in net income without depreciation after all other deductions, it is December 20. If I am an S-corp, that $80,000 flows to my personal tax return, and since I already paid myself $80,000, my income is $160,000 that year (say my wife's income is offset by all deductions including self employment tax, etc.). I can choose to pay a total tax of $33,544, (actually pretty close to this) or....

I can upgrade to equipment that is newer, gets more work per gallon of fuel, is more efficient, or whatever. Depending on what type of equipment it is, I can write off 100% of the purchase price of that equipment through section 179, or I can write it off over 5 years or more, depending on the accounting rules for that type of asset.

In the case of section 179 depreciation, let's say I buy a truck for $80,000. I sell my old one for $20,000 that was fully depreciated. I get to deduct $80,000 from my net income, but add back the $20,000 gain on sale, for a net reduction in income of $60,000 and a tax savings of approximately $15,856. The old truck could have lasted another 3 years, but maintenance costs would have been $15,000 over 3 years vs. zero on the new truck because of the warranty. I also get better fuel economy with the new truck, saving me another $5,000 per year. Gross savings over existing expenses for the next three years are $15,866+15,000+15,000 = $45,866 in three years. My net output was $60,000 (80-20=60) after buying the new truck and selling the old truck. This results in a net expense over 3 years of $14,134 for trading up to a newer stronger faster more efficient truck, or, I could have paid Uncle Sam $15,866 more in taxes today and had a worn out truck that might last me a few more years, and paid higher fuel costs and more in repairs. I'm buying a truck in the next few days.

This is an oversimplification, but there are business owners I bank who pencil this stuff out, exactly this way, to figure out when and if they upgrade equipment.

Sorry, I write story problems at work all day long.


_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"

They call me POODLE SMOLT!

The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.

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#449092 - 08/21/08 10:05 AM Re: 52 seconds [Re: ]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10878
Loc: McCleary, WA
Buildings usually depreciate over a longer time period, such as 27.5 years, or something like that, based on IRS tax treatment. Check your depreciation schedule. Using straight line depreciation, a building with an acquisition cost of $275,000 would throw off $10,000/year in depreciation.

There is a difference between value appreciation and depreciation and IRS tax treatment of the useful life of an asset (depreciation), which is what you were describing.

How you figure equipment expense isan example of instituting replacement reserves as a way to budget for equipment expenses. That is great! Many business owners fail to budget or plan for this expense and spend it.

Depreciation may not be an incentive to upgrade equipment in a service business. It ceratinly is in an equipment intensive industry like trucking, logging, and construction.
_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"

They call me POODLE SMOLT!

The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.

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#449099 - 08/21/08 11:14 AM Re: 52 seconds [Re: Dogfish]
stlhead Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6732
Last I checked interest on boats, RV's, etc are most certainly deductable if you can "prove" you lived aboard for two weeks out of the year.

"You ever study economics? " Most certainly. One of my degrees is in Finance. MBA level Econ was required. A long time ago though. Anyone remember using calculus to calcuate the rate of an increase at decreasing rate or visa versa. The flaw with Econ, as it's tought, is it assumes perfect capitalism which doesn't exist. Supplies are manipulated as well as demands. Much of which is via subsidies, aka tax breaks.

"Foreign countries have tax rates also"

If you want a good example just look at Kellogg Brown Root and thank Dick Cheney while you are at it.

In no way do I believe that things will change but in a perfect world paying anything less than the tax rate would mean you received a subsidy which cost all other tax payers.
_________________________
"You learn more from losing than you do from winning." Lou Pinella

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#449119 - 08/21/08 01:20 PM Re: 52 seconds [Re: stlhead]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10878
Loc: McCleary, WA
Stlhead is describing the bed, bread & head rule. (sleeping arrangements, permanent cooking facilities, and a bathroom) Works for boats, RV's, etc. Essentially counts as a second home. Interest is deductible (check with your accountant)

Consumers also get tax breaks for upgrading to energy efficient windows, and buying one of those nifty hybrids cars. While not depreciation, it is an incentive to invest.

The Government uses incentives to achieve goals, such as having healthy industry, which provides jobs, and hopefully creates a happy populace. (In a perfect world)

Just as economics is based on a perfect world, so is politics. Glad to know we both have some education on theoretical economics and experience with the real world as well. Unfortunately, I live here, not there.
_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"

They call me POODLE SMOLT!

The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.

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#449121 - 08/21/08 01:26 PM Re: 52 seconds [Re: Dogfish]
Mikespike Offline
MPD

Registered: 01/02/08
Posts: 2544
Loc: Santa Rosa, CA
Originally Posted By: Dogfish
Sorry, I write story problems at work all day long.


Wait, where's the part about the train leaving Chicago at 2PM central and the train from L.A. leaving at 10AM pacific? wink

Here's your real doom and gloom story, which gets back to potential presidential platforms:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/Movies/08/21/buffett.box.office.ap/index.html
_________________________
Don't believe everything that you think.

"Holy hell son, you're about as useful as a cock flavored lollipop."

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#449163 - 08/21/08 05:36 PM Re: 52 seconds [Re: Magicfly]
Sol Duc Offline
April Fool

Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 15727
My favorite Obammy moment is, when asked about drilling and oil prices, he stated that all americans have to do is inflate their tires properly and tune up their cars..problem solved what a Dork!

And yes Irie I saw that on Foxs news thumbs
_________________________
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.

- Albert Einstein.

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#449166 - 08/21/08 06:32 PM Re: 52 seconds [Re: willametteriveroutlaw]
stever in everett Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/17/99
Posts: 774
Loc: Everett, WA USA
"Pensions are great, but they are also what is leading to the collapse of many american companies as there work force gets older.."

Pensions were unable to fulfill their obligations to the pensioners because they were under funded. Period. Due to a change in the accounting methods used and that corporations were allowed to "borrow" against the assets in their employees' pension funds. This happened while Clinton was president and we had a republican congress.
Who benefited? The corporations of course. Please disprove anything I said and show your work.
_________________________
"Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there." Will Rogers

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#449167 - 08/21/08 06:36 PM Re: 52 seconds [Re: stever in everett]
stever in everett Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/17/99
Posts: 774
Loc: Everett, WA USA
"My favorite Obammy moment is, when asked about drilling and oil prices, he stated that all americans have to do is inflate their tires properly and tune up their cars..problem solved what a Dork!"

It is true that it would save everyone more than the McSame gas tax holiday and it costs nothing.

The real thing wrong with McSame is he is too damn old. He'll be 72 in a few days. He'll need dipers soon.
_________________________
"Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there." Will Rogers

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#449168 - 08/21/08 06:38 PM Re: 52 seconds [Re: stever in everett]
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9013
Loc: everett
My pension and retirement account is money negociated in leu of wages in my pocket--- same with my health insurance. To have a company take it would be theft in my book.
_________________________
would the boy you were be proud of the man you are

Growing old ain't for wimps
Lonnie Gane

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