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#451763 - 09/05/08 08:53 PM Re: Sarah Palin shoot's....she scores! [Re: Sol]
Sol Duc Offline
April Fool

Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 15727
Originally Posted By: Sol
Damn. The cap must have stayed on the acetone can at EAR, today. That was beautiful. thumbs


LOL Word....
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He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.

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#451769 - 09/05/08 09:23 PM Re: Sarah Palin shoot's....she scores! [Re: ]
Sol Duc Offline
April Fool

Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 15727
That makes 50% idiots vote, that's probally a good thing.
_________________________
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.

- Albert Einstein.

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#451779 - 09/05/08 10:13 PM Re: Sarah Palin shoot's....she scores! [Re: ]
wntrrn Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 2562
Loc: Edmonds
Originally Posted By: Kanektok Kid
Wntrrn:

The average person is this country is an idiot, don't you ever go out and drive or anything ?
If you did, you'd know that.

grin


I'd love to see an average person get voted in. Maybe then we'd see solutions for the average people of this country. Right now it doesn't matter which side gets elected because they'll spend the next 4 years paying off their big money donors.

I think when you refer to idiots you are referring to less than average folks? Unless you consider yourself average and the rest of us inferior.


Edited by wntrrn (09/05/08 10:14 PM)
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#451783 - 09/05/08 10:36 PM Re: Sarah Palin shoot's....she scores! [Re: ]
Sol Duc Offline
April Fool

Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 15727
What time you meeting Blades ? moose
_________________________
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.

- Albert Einstein.

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#451801 - 09/06/08 12:53 AM Re: Sarah Palin shoot's....she scores! [Re: Steelheadman]
sykofish Offline
I'm not short, I'm 'fun size'

Registered: 12/25/07
Posts: 1492
Loc: Mulletville
Originally Posted By: Steelheadman




Flat busted? Maybe not

Flat chested.....Definetly!
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#451816 - 09/06/08 08:26 AM Re: Sarah Palin shoot's....she scores! [Re: ]
Salmonella Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 1340
Originally Posted By: stam
Originally Posted By: Salmonella




..She knows and understands issues affecting hunters, both natural and legislative.





Not saying that I couldn't vote for her, but I would disagree with that statement...and here's why

The biggest threat to to our and future hunting and fishing opportunities is not liberals or anti's or any of the other calls to arms....The biggest threat is quite simply too many people competing for the same limited numbers of resources. Overpopulation.

She has chosen to have six kids and that disqualifies her from being any kind of advocate for pretty much anything...she may be able to raise and support them just fine, she's obviously not trailer trash or a welfare mom...but to me she has proven that she does not understand issues regarding protection of anything just by making that choice.

Consider your old favorite places to hunt or fish....why can't you go there and do what you did anymore? did a liberal democrat close it? Or, did the hordes in orange kill all the deer and elk to the point of needing protection? ...Or, better yet, did a huge corporation (hancock) buy up massive plots of formerly accessable land close them to public access then start their own hunting ranch selling public animals to the highest bidders....sounds republican to me. Another scenario, public land being leased to cattle ranchers then overgrazed and abused to the point of being unfit to support wildlife...once again, generally republican.

"Convert all resources to cash" seems to be the battle cry of the republican, then blame the democrat when it's gone.

Either way we're fu.cked on this one. I'm voting for DanS, the man is in possession of more common sense that both tickets and all party members combined.

stam


Stammy, You know I admire you and consider you a friend, but I will disagree on this one.
I can understand how you draw your conclusions.
As far as hunting goes, the problem of supply/demand is exactly the reason that all western states have gone to lottery draw/preference point systems.
I'll agree that it ain't the "good old days" where you just load up the truck and go where you want.
Hell There are some primo deer & elk units in Colorado that take 14 points (years) to draw.
I refuse to hunt the general tag areas.
This year I applied for hunts in nine states trying to secure a hunt for the fall, and drew one.
If I can't draw limited entry areas I stay home.
As far as deer hunting goes, I am one of the lucky ones that get to hunt private land close to home for free.

Every single hunting oriented conservation organization endorses Republican candidates for predident.

Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation
Foundation For North American Wild Sheep
Mule Deer Foundation
The Boone & Crockett Club
Ducks Unlimited
Wild Turkey Federation
Safari Club International
Grand Slam Club
etc...

These organizations have provided incredible protection for the environment, wildlife and the crucial habitat that it requires AND protection of the our hunting heriage.

I still don't buy the Todd analagy though. you know the one that says " there is nothing left to hunt in the post Bush barren wasteland."

Try as I might I just cannot find a comfortable place among the hard left liberals.
I despise the racist concept of affirmative action.
When healthcare is socialized, my hard earned benefit package (read wages, is devalued)
I don't believe gays need more rights than the rest of us (hate crime legislation) though I could care less about civil unions or gay marriage.
I don't believe that the bar should be lowered in society so that women can make the team (police, fire fighters ,military) Though certainly they have valuable positions there.
I still hate hippies and the way they try to jam their utopian beliefs down my throat.
And yes, the treehuggers that are trying to reduce my hunting opportunities are all democrats.
The handgun & assault weapons mean nothing to me but the second ammendment has absolutley NOTHING to do with hunting.

The support of republicans based on a love of hunting is indeed a double edged sword.
As long as the major hunting based conservation based organizations that I belong to continue to back them however, I will find it very difficult to go the other way.
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#451821 - 09/06/08 08:51 AM Re: Sarah Palin shoot's....she scores! [Re: Salmonella]
LoweDown Offline
Conquistador

Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 1759
Loc: Forks, WA
Sal - I'm curious as to whether those organizations support Republican cantidates because they are many times less likely to instigate gun ownership restrictions, or for another reason?

I've always felt Republicans have a much poorer track record when it comes to protecting the areas and animals we hunt, but they do defend our right to possess the weapons with which we hunt. It's unfortunate that there aren't more cantidates from either party that have an overlapping interest in both.

Otherwise I share the majority of your beliefs, with the exception of health care.... Since I don't have a plan in place to devalue, the idea of having access to one at a reasonable price is very appealing. I would hope that any steps taken in that direction involve benefits for the people already covered, for instance if your plan was suddenly worth less than theoretically that's because it should cost your employer less, which should mean they could pay you the difference in actual wages. Unlikely perhaps, but certainly reasonable.

As for the police and military type jobs you mentioned, or really with any job for that matter, a persons suitability for the tasks their position requires should be viewed without consideration of gender. Has there been a move to make police and firefighter jobs more available to women via a lessening of physical requirements?

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#451828 - 09/06/08 12:43 PM Re: Sarah Palin shoot's....she scores! [Re: ]
Krijack Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1536
Loc: Tacoma
Back during the height of affirmative action, I had a freind who was trying very hard to be a police officer. He said he went to one of the applications / tryouts where there were several women present. During the sit up section you were required to do so many in 2 minutes, he said he barely made it because they didn't count a ton of his as they said he didn't touch good enough or long enough at the top. Next to him was woman who couldn't do it. When she started to cry (no kidding), they told her not to worry, it didn't matter if "she" could do them. They would give extra points for being ex-military, a minority, female, etc. My freind never did get hired. At forty-two, he still is in good enough shape to go hike a 60 mile hike, climb liberty ridge, and rock climb. I also remember a problem one of the local fire departments was having during this time. It seems that some African-American firemen felt that their counterparts were apprehensive of them. They did a survey and found out that a large percentage were indeed uncomfortable as they felt some were not as qualified. The solution was to make everyone attend diversity training. If I remember right the total possible points on a test was either 120 or 100. Women got 10 extra, minorities got 10, and military got 10. That means a white male could score 120 and be beat by a black, ex-military woman who scored 91. If they were being nicer on the tests, there is no way she is as qualified as the white male. Maybe more qualified then most people, just not as qualified at the best. As a result, anyone who could have qualified with less points, but did not necessarily need them, was treated with suspicion. I had a business acquaintance that told me this happened to him. Every where he went it took a couple of weeks before anyone would treat him ok. He said as a result he would work twice as hard and long as anyone else. In the end, when he moved on he said the guys trusted him so much they actually told him that it sucked because he was replaced by "one of the affirmative action guys".

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#451830 - 09/06/08 01:02 PM Re: Sarah Palin shoot's....she scores! [Re: Krijack]
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 16958
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
This is what a political discussion should look like.

If people had frank disussions about their interests, their concerns, and their proposed solutions instead of sniping each other over preachers and teen pregnancy, we'd get problems solved in this country.

But there's always some Dick Morris or Karl Rove motherf'er that will send the discussion to hell in a handbasket by screaming about the small differences and whispering about that which we have in common. That's the only way the two major parties can stay on top.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

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#451834 - 09/06/08 01:44 PM Re: Sarah Palin shoot's....she scores! [Re: Dan S.]
Pugnacious Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 884
Loc: It's funny to me!
Recently while I was at work, I was sent an email about the "treatment of pregnant women in the work place." I saw it and thought, "What a crock of shiat!" Now I unerstand that there should be a level bar set for everyone in the, as it is only fair that everyone has a chance. But this sort of thing is why for over two hundred years women were not allowed in the military. Sometimes there is just some things that shouldn't change. You asked about the physical requirements of females vs. males. Well the military is quite possibly the worst advocate of "making it easier" for woman to do the same things. Every single physical challenge and requirement is set on a different level. If I have to do 30 push ups, she only has to do 17, and with her knees on the ground. If I have to 60 situps in 90 seconds, she only has to do 30 in 60 seconds. You get my point I am sure. The military also will give preference to females and minorities for just about everything. Getting into Officer Candidate programs, flight school, college programs, etc. If there is a chance for someone to say, "I did not get in because I was black, purple, mexican, Puerto Rican, female and pregnant." Then you better believe that there is going to be preference made for all the above mentioned. I know people that have had to flat out lie just to get in the service because the military is such a strong advocate. If you are a guy, unless you are a minority, you are going to wait up to one year to get in the service. If you are a minoroty or a woman, then you could shipped out for boot camp inside the week. Regardless of whether you meet the physical standards. That is a fact. Don't let anyone else tell ya different. I have seen it with my own eyes and witnessed my best friend, who is a recruiter for the Marine Corp HAVE to do it. We are no longer a country based on strength because the best of the best are defending it and building it.
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Don't sweat the petty things, pet the sweaty things.

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#451837 - 09/06/08 02:12 PM Re: Sarah Palin shoot's....she scores! [Re: Pugnacious]
bonkit Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 07/14/06
Posts: 373
Loc: Port Orchard
I guess we can all settle down for now, continue after the debates...I believe that will show true face.
_________________________
"Bad day fishing is better than a good day at work"

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#451860 - 09/06/08 07:20 PM Re: Sarah Palin shoot's....she scores! [Re: ]
kevin lund Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/23/01
Posts: 913
Loc: gales creek, or
I really liked her speech and her passion. The only thing that scares me is........


THE PEBBLE CREEK MINE!


What position does she take on that?
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Proud member of the CCA
"BOCLMN"
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#451928 - 09/06/08 11:38 PM Re: Sarah Palin shoot's....she scores! [Re: ]
Salmonella Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 1340
Originally Posted By: blue water pro
This thread has gotten weird,

First, you shouldn't be a woman cop unless you are a bulldike lesbian who can scale a 6' fence? Like it or not we do need woman officers, ie rape victims, domestic violence, body searches of women, we ALSO need hispanic officers & black officers -diverse people - must I really elaborate? Ok.. elaborating it is about what is NEEDED.




Out of context.
Women DO INDEED serve an absolutley crucial role in law enforcement as do people of diverse ethnic backrounds.
I have just had it with the certain notion that some radical feminists seem to have that men and women are PHYSICALLY equal.
The sexes were NOT created equal.
The physical requirements for first responders should never be lowered so that women can "fit in".
The whole affirmative action thing boils my blood too.
Preference points for race?
Unless of course you are white.
Seriously?
_________________________


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#451936 - 09/06/08 11:44 PM Re: Sarah Palin shoot's....she scores! [Re: ]
Pugnacious Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 884
Loc: It's funny to me!
BWP,

Don't get your panties in a bunch. The amount of people sent out and when in the military is a direct relation to the location. Fact of the matter is, you stand a white guy and a whatever guy/gal (anything but white, except for the gal) and guess who is going. I know plenty of people that have gone to the military, name the branch, and said I want to go and have been shipped as fast as the recruiter can route paper work. But I also have seen with my own two eyes, a person with a Bachelors degree, walk into a recruiters office. Tell them they want to enlist, and get turned down, because some retard with an ASVAB (that is the entry test to determine what you can do in the military) score so low it wouldn't fly if you folded the paper it was printed on into an airplane, walk in within a day of said individual and get shipped out the next week because they were a minority or a woman. That is where the system is flawed. And if you can't see that then you are either blind or refusing to see what is right in front of you. I am not picking a bone with you BWP, but I think you just like to argue sometimes. It is OK though. I have a little brother like that, so I know how to handle folks like that.


And dear god please don't misconstrue this as a race issue. Think of it more as a debate.


Edited by Pugnacious (09/06/08 11:47 PM)
_________________________
To everybody else, YOU are the other guy.

Don't sweat the petty things, pet the sweaty things.

Boise State- National title, here we come!

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#451948 - 09/07/08 01:45 AM Re: Sarah Palin shoot's....she scores! [Re: ]
LoweDown Offline
Conquistador

Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 1759
Loc: Forks, WA
Since you see racism and sexism everywhere you look, it's safe to assume that "They" are watching you through your television, and listening to your thoughts.

Be Careful.

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#451957 - 09/07/08 09:32 AM Re: Sarah Palin shoot's....she scores! [Re: ]
LoweDown Offline
Conquistador

Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 1759
Loc: Forks, WA
I couldn't agree more. I've heard that a hat made of aluminum will "foil" their efforts.

Oh, you're already wearing one. Good Call.


Edited by LoweDown (09/07/08 12:04 PM)

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#451960 - 09/07/08 10:47 AM Re: Sarah Palin shoot's....she scores! [Re: LoweDown]
Pugnacious Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 884
Loc: It's funny to me!
A wire noddle strainer will well also I am told.
_________________________
To everybody else, YOU are the other guy.

Don't sweat the petty things, pet the sweaty things.

Boise State- National title, here we come!

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#452062 - 09/08/08 12:11 AM Re: Sarah Palin shoot's....she scores! [Re: ]
fish4brains Offline
Dah Rivah Stinkah Pink Mastah

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 6210
Loc: zipper
Grilled PB&J mmmmm......

* 2 teaspoons butter
* 2 slices white bread
* 1 tablespoon peanut butter
* 2 tablespoons blackberry or strawberry jam


DIRECTIONS

1. Heat griddle or skillet to 350 degrees F (175 degrees C).
2. Spread butter on one side of each slice of bread. Spread peanut butter on unbuttered side of one slice of bread, and jelly on the other. Place one slice, buttered side down on the griddle. Top with other slice, so that peanut butter and jelly are in the middle. Cook for 4 minutes on each side, or until golden brown, and heated through.
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Propping up an obsolete fishing industry at the expense of sound fisheries management is irresponsible. -Sg



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#452063 - 09/08/08 12:12 AM Re: Sarah Palin shoot's....she scores! [Re: ]
fish4brains Offline
Dah Rivah Stinkah Pink Mastah

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 6210
Loc: zipper
Originally Posted By: blue water pro
No reply? Hello? Will this get a response?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?m=XKGdkqfBICw


A really, really, really long post about gay marriage that does not, in the end, support one side or the other

Unlike most libertarians, I don't have an opinion on gay marriage, and I'm not going to have an opinion no matter how much you bait me. However, I had an interesting discussion last night with another libertarian about it, which devolved into an argument about a certain kind of liberal/libertarian argument about gay marriage that I find really unconvincing.

Social conservatives of a more moderate stripe are essentially saying that marriage is an ancient institution, which has been carefully selected for throughout human history. It is a bedrock of our society; if it is destroyed, we will all be much worse off. (See what happened to the inner cities between 1960 and 1990 if you do not believe this.) For some reason, marriage always and everywhere, in every culture we know about, is between a man and a woman; this seems to be an important feature of the institution. We should not go mucking around and changing this extremely important institution, because if we make a bad change, the institution will fall apart.

A very common response to this is essentially to mock this as ridiculous. "Why on earth would it make any difference to me whether gay people are getting married? Why would that change my behavior as a heterosexual"

To which social conservatives reply that institutions have a number of complex ways in which they fulfill their roles, and one of the very important ways in which the institution of marriage perpetuates itself is by creating a romantic vision of oneself in marriage that is intrinsically tied into expressing one's masculinity or femininity in relation to a person of the opposite sex; stepping into an explicitly gendered role. This may not be true of every single marriage, and indeed undoubtedly it is untrue in some cases. But it is true of the culture-wide institution. By changing the explicitly gendered nature of marriage we might be accidentally cutting away something that turns out to be a crucial underpinning.

To which, again, the other side replies "That's ridiculous! I would never change my willingness to get married based on whether or not gay people were getting married!"

Now, economists hear this sort of argument all the time. "That's ridiculous! I would never start working fewer hours because my taxes went up!" This ignores the fact that you may not be the marginal case. The marginal case may be some consultant who just can't justify sacrificing valuable leisure for a new project when he's only making 60 cents on the dollar. The result will nonetheless be the same: less economic activity. Similarly, you--highly educated, firmly socialised, upper middle class you--may not be the marginal marriage candidate; it may be some high school dropout in Tuscaloosa. That doesn't mean that the institution of marriage won't be weakened in America just the same.

This should not be taken as an endorsement of the idea that gay marriage will weaken the current institution. I can tell a plausible story where it does; I can tell a plausible story where it doesn't. I have no idea which one is true. That is why I have no opinion on gay marriage, and am not planning to develop one. Marriage is a big institution; too big for me to feel I have a successful handle on it.

However, I am bothered by this specific argument, which I have heard over and over from the people I know who favor gay marriage laws. I mean, literally over and over; when they get into arguments, they just repeat it, again and again. "I will get married even if marriage is expanded to include gay people; I cannot imagine anyone up and deciding not to get married because gay people are getting married; therefore, the whole idea is ridiculous and bigoted."

They may well be right. Nonetheless, libertarians should know better. The limits of your imagination are not the limits of reality. Every government programme that libertarians have argued against has been defended at its inception with exactly this argument.

Let me take three major legal innovations, one of them general, two specific to marriage.

The first, the general one, is well known to most hard-core libertarians, but let me reprise it anyway. When the income tax was initially being debated, there was a suggestion to put in a mandatory cap; I believe the level was 10 percent.

Don't be ridiculous, the Senator's colleagues told him. Americans would never allow an income tax rate as high as ten percent. They would revolt! It is an outrage to even suggest it!

Many actually fought the cap on the grounds that it would encourage taxes to grow too high, towards the cap. The American people, they asserted, could be well counted on to keep income taxes in the range of a few percentage points.

Oops.

Now, I'm not a tax-crazy libertarian; I don't expect you to be horrified that we have income taxes higher than ten percent, as I'm not. But the point is that the Senators were completely right--at that time. However, the existance of the income tax allowed for a slow creep that eroded the American resistance to income taxation. External changes--from the Great Depression, to the technical ability to manage withholding rather than lump payments, also facilitated the rise, but they could not have without a cultural sea change in feelings about taxation. That "ridiculous" cap would have done a much, much better job holding down tax rates than the culture these Senators erroneously relied upon. Changing the law can, and does, change the culture of the thing regulated.

Another example is welfare. To sketch a brief history of welfare, it emerged in the nineteenth century as "Widows and orphans pensions", which were paid by the state to destitute families whose breadwinner had passed away. They were often not available to blacks; they were never available to unwed mothers. Though public services expanded in the first half of the twentieth century, that mentality was very much the same: public services were about supporting unfortunate families, not unwed mothers. Unwed mothers could not, in most cases, obtain welfare; they were not allowed in public housing (which was supposed to be--and was--a way station for young, struggling families on the way to homeownership, not a permanent abode); they were otherwise discriminated against by social services. The help you could expect from society was a home for wayward girls, in which you would give birth and then put the baby up for adoption.

The description of public housing in the fifties is shocking to anyone who's spent any time in modern public housing. Big item on the agenda at the tenant's meeting: housewives, don't shake your dustcloths out of the windows--other wives don't want your dirt in their apartment! Men, if you wear heavy work boots, please don't walk on the lawns until you can change into lighter shoes, as it damages the grass! (Descriptions taken from the invaluable book, The Inheritance, about the transition of the white working class from Democrat to Republican.) Needless to say, if those same housing projects could today find a majority of tenants who reliably dusted, or worked, they would be thrilled.

Public housing was, in short, a place full of functioning families.

Now, in the late fifties, a debate began over whether to extend benefits to the unmarried. It was unfair to stigmatise unwed mothers. Why shouldn't they be able to avail themselves of the benefits available to other citizens? The brutal societal prejudice against illegitimacy was old fashioned, bigoted, irrational.

But if you give unmarried mothers money, said the critics, you will get more unmarried mothers.

Ridiculous, said the proponents of the change. Being an unmarried mother is a brutal, thankless task. What kind of idiot would have a baby out of wedlock just because the state was willing to give her paltry welfare benefits?

People do all sorts of idiotic things, said the critics. If you pay for something, you usually get more of it.

C'mon said the activists. That's just silly. I just can't imagine anyone deciding to get pregnant out of wedlock simply because there are welfare benefits available.

Oooops.

Of course, change didn't happen overnight. But the marginal cases did have children out of wedlock, which made it more acceptable for the next marginal case to do so. Meanwhile, women who wanted to get married essentially found themselves in competition for young men with women who were willing to have sex, and bear children, without forcing the men to take any responsibility. This is a pretty attractive proposition for most young men. So despite the fact that the sixties brought us the biggest advance in birth control ever, illegitimacy exploded. In the early 1960s, a black illegitimacy rate of roughly 25 percent caused Daniel Patrick Moynihan to write a tract warning of a crisis in "the negro family" (a tract for which he was eviscerated by many of those selfsame activists.)

By 1990, that rate was over 70 percent. This, despite the fact that the inner city, where the illegitimacy problem was biggest, only accounts for a fraction of the black population.

But in that inner city, marriage had been destroyed. It had literally ceased to exist in any meaningful way. Possibly one of the most moving moments in Jason de Parle's absolutely wonderful book, American Dream, which follows three welfare mothers through welfare reform, is when he reveals that none of these three women, all in their late thirties, had ever been to a wedding.

Marriage matters. It is better for the kids; it is better for the adults raising those kids; and it is better for the childless people in the communities where those kids and adults live. Marriage reduces poverty, improves kids outcomes in all measurable ways, makes men live longer and both spouses happier. Marriage, it turns out, is an incredibly important institution. It also turns out to be a lot more fragile than we thought back then. It looked, to those extremely smart and well-meaning welfare reformers, practically unshakeable; the idea that it could be undone by something as simple as enabling women to have children without husbands, seemed ludicrous. Its cultural underpinnings were far too firm. Why would a woman choose such a hard road? It seemed self-evident that the only unwed mothers claiming benefits would be the ones pushed there by terrible circumstance.

This argument is compelling and logical. I would never become an unwed welfare mother, even if benefits were a great deal higher than they are now. It seems crazy to even suggest that one would bear a child out of wedlock for $567 a month. Indeed, to this day, I find the reformist side much more persuasive than the conservative side, except for one thing, which is that the conservatives turned out to be right. In fact, they turned out to be even more right than they suspected; they were predicting upticks in illegitimacy that were much more modest than what actually occurred--they expected marriage rates to suffer, not collapse.

How did people go so badly wrong? Well, to start with, they fell into the basic fallacy that economists are so well acquainted with: they thought about themselves instead of the marginal case. For another, they completely failed to realise that each additional illegitimate birth would, in effect, slightly destigmatise the next one. They assigned men very little agency, failing to predict that women willing to forgo marriage would essentially become unwelcome competition for women who weren't, and that as the numbers changed, that competition might push the marriage market towards unwelcome outcomes. They failed to forsee the confounding effect that the birth control pill would have on sexual mores.

But I think the core problems are two. The first is that they looked only at individuals, and took instititutions as a given. That is, they looked at all the cultural pressure to marry, and assumed that that would be a countervailing force powerful enough to overcome the new financial incentives for out-of-wedlock births. They failed to see the institution as dynamic. It wasn't a simple matter of two forces: cultural pressure to marry, financial freedom not to, arrayed against eachother; those forces had a complex interplay, and when you changed one, you changed the other.

The second is that they didn't assign any cultural reason for, or value to, the stigma on illegitimacy. They saw it as an outmoded vestige of a repressive Victorial values system, based on an unnatural fear of sexuality. But the stigma attached to unwed motherhood has quite logical, and important, foundations: having a child without a husband is bad for children, and bad for mothers, and thus bad for the rest of us. So our culture made it very costly for the mother to do. Lower the cost, and you raise the incidence. As an economist would say, incentives matter.

(Now, I am not arguing in favor of stigmatising unwed mothers the way the Victorians did. I'm just pointing out that the stigma did not exist merely, as many mid-century reformers seem to have believed, because of some dark Freudian excesses on the part of our ancestors.)

But all the reformers saw was the terrible pain--and it was terrible--inflicted on unwed mothers. They saw the terrible unfairness--and it was terribly unfair--of punishing the mother, and not the father. They saw the inherent injustice--and need I add, it was indeed unjust--of treating American citizens differently because of their marital status.

But as G.K. Chesterton points out, people who don't see the use of a social institution are the last people who should be allowed to reform it:

In the matter of reforming things, as distinct from deforming them, there is one plain and simple principle; a principle which will probably be called a paradox. There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, "I don't see the use of this; let us clear it away." To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: "If you don't see the use of it, I certainly won't let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it."

This paradox rests on the most elementary common sense. The gate or fence did not grow there. It was not set up by somnambulists who built it in their sleep. It is highly improbable that it was put there by escaped lunatics who were for some reason loose in the street. Some person had some reason for thinking it would be a good thing for somebody. And until we know what the reason was, we really cannot judge whether the reason was reasonable. It is extremely probable that we have overlooked some whole aspect of the question, if something set up by human beings like ourselves seems to be entirely meaningless and mysterious. There are reformers who get over this difficulty by assuming that all their fathers were fools; but if that be so, we can only say that folly appears to be a hereditary disease. But the truth is that nobody has any business to destroy a social institution until he has really seen it as an historical institution. If he knows how it arose, and what purposes it was supposed to serve, he may really be able to say that they were bad purposes, that they have since become bad purposes, or that they are purposes which are no longer served. But if he simply stares at the thing as a senseless monstrosity that has somehow sprung up in his path, it is he and not the traditionalist who is suffering from an illusion.

Now, of course, this can turn into a sort of precautionary principle that prevents reform from ever happening. That would be bad; all sorts of things need changing all the time, because society and our environment change. But as a matter of principle, it is probably a bad idea to let someone go mucking around with social arrangements, such as the way we treat unwed parenthood, if their idea about that institution is that "it just growed". You don't have to be a rock-ribbed conservative to recognise that there is something of an evolutionary process in society: institutional features are not necessarily the best possible arrangement, but they have been selected for a certain amount of fitness.

It might also be, of course, that the feature is what evolutionary biologists call a spandrel. It's a term taken from architecture; spandrels are the pretty little spaces between vaulted arches. They are not designed for; they are a useless, but pretty, side effect of the physical properties of arches. In evolutionary biology, spandrel is some feature which is not selected for, but appears as a byproduct of other traits that are selected for. Belly buttons are a neat place to put piercings, but they're not there because of that; they're a byproduct of mammalian reproduction.

However, and architect will be happy to tell you that if you try to rip out the spandrel, you might easily bring down the building.

The third example I'll give is of changes to the marriage laws, specifically the radical relaxation of divorce statutes during the twentieth century.

Divorce, in the nineteenth century, was unbelievably hard to get. It took years, was expensive, and required proving that your spouse had abandonned you for an extended period with no financial support; was (if male) not merely discreetly dallying but flagrantly carrying on; or was not just belting you one now and again when you got mouthy, but routinely pummeling you within an inch of your life. After you got divorced, you were a pariah in all but the largest cities. If you were a desperately wronged woman you might change your name, taking your maiden name as your first name and continuing to use your husband's last name to indicate that you expected to continue living as if you were married (i.e. chastely) and expect to have some limited intercourse with your neighbours, though of course you would not be invited to events held in a church, or evening affairs. Financially secure women generally (I am not making this up) moved to Europe; Edith Wharton, who moved to Paris when she got divorced, wrote moving stories about the way divorced women were shunned at home. Men, meanwhile (who were usually the respondants) could expect to see more than half their assets and income settled on their spouse and children.

There were, critics observed, a number of unhappy marriages in which people stuck together. Young people, who shouldn't have gotten married; older people, whose spouses were not physically abusive nor absent, nor flagrantly adulterous, but whose spouse was, for reasons of financial irresponsibility, mental viciousness, or some other major flaw, destroying their life. Why not make divorce easier to get? Rather than requiring people to show that there was an unforgiveable, physically visible, cause that the marriage should be dissolved, why not let people who wanted to get divorced agree to do so?

Because if you make divorce easier, said the critics, you will get much more of it, and divorce is bad for society.

That's ridiculous! said the reformers. (Can we sing it all together now?) People stay married because marriage is a bedrock institution of our society, not because of some law! The only people who get divorced will be people who have terrible problems! A few percentage points at most!

Oops. When the law changed, the institution changed. The marginal divorce made the next one easier. Again, the magnitude of the change swamped the dire predictions of the anti-reformist wing; no one could have imagined, in their wildest dreams, a day when half of all marriages ended in divorce.

There were actually two big changes; the first, when divorce laws were amended in most states to make it easier to get a divorce; and the second, when "no fault" divorce allowed one spouse to unilaterally end the marriage. The second change produced another huge surge in the divorce rate, and a nice decline in the incomes of divorced women; it seems advocates had failed to anticipate that removing the leverage of the financially weaker party to hold out for a good settlement would result in men keeping more of their earnings to themselves.

What's more, easy divorce didn't only change the divorce rate; it made drastic changes to the institution of marriage itself. David Brooks makes an argument I find convincing: that the proliferation of the kind of extravagent weddings that used to only be the province of high society (rented venue, extravagent flowers and food, hundreds of guests, a band with dancing, dresses that cost the same as a good used car) is because the event itself doesn't mean nearly as much as it used to, so we have to turn it into a three-ring circus to feel like we're really doing something.

A couple in 1940 (and even more so in 1910) could go to a minister's parlor, or a justice of the peace, and in five minutes totally change their lives. Unless you are a member of certain highly religious subcultures, this is simply no longer true. That is, of course, partly because of the sexual revolution and the emancipation of women; but it is also because you aren't really making a lifetime committment; you're making a lifetime committment unless you find something better to do. There is no way, psychologically, to make the latter as big an event as the former, and when you lost that committment, you lose, on the margin, some willingness to make the marriage work. Again, this doesn't mean I think divorce law should be toughened up; only that changes in law that affect marriage affect the cultural institution, not just the legal practice.

Three laws. Three well-meaning reformers who were genuinely, sincerely incapable of imagining that their changes would wreak such institutional havoc. Three sets of utterly logical and convincing, and wrong arguments about how people would behave after a major change.

So what does this mean? That we shouldn't enact gay marriage because of some sort of social Precautionary Principle

No. I have no such grand advice.

My only request is that people try to be a leeetle more humble about their ability to imagine the subtle results of big policy changes. The argument that gay marriage will not change the institution of marriage because you can't imagine it changing your personal reaction is pretty arrogant. It imagines, first of all, that your behavior is a guide for the behavior of everyone else in society, when in fact, as you may have noticed, all sorts of different people react to all sorts of different things in all sorts of different ways, which is why we have to have elections and stuff. And second, the unwavering belief that the only reason that marriage, always and everywhere, is a male-female institution (I exclude rare ritual behaviors), is just some sort of bizarre historical coincidence, and that you know better, needs examining. If you think you know why marriage is male-female, and why that's either outdated because of all the ways in which reproduction has lately changed, or was a bad reason to start with, then you are in a good place to advocate reform. If you think that marriage is just that way because our ancestors were all a bunch of repressed bastards with dark Freudian complexes that made them homophobic bigots, I'm a little leery of letting you muck around with it.

Is this post going to convince anyone? I doubt it; everyone but me seems to already know all the answers, so why listen to such a hedging, doubting bore? I myself am trying to draw a very fine line between being humble about making big changes to big social institutions, and telling people (which I am not trying to do) that they can't make those changes because other people have been wrong in the past. In the end, our judgement is all we have; everyone will have to rely on their judgement of whether gay marriage is, on net, a good or a bad idea. All I'm asking for is for people to think more deeply than a quick consultation of their imaginations to make that decision. I realise that this probably falls on the side of supporting the anti-gay-marriage forces, and I'm sorry, but I can't help that. This humility is what I want from liberals when approaching market changes; now I'm asking it from my side too, in approaching social ones. I think the approach is consistent, if not exactly popular.

Update A number of libertarians are, as I predicted, making the "Why don't we just privatise marriage?" argument. I don't find that useful in the context of the debate about gay marriage in America, where marriage is simply not going to be privatised in any foreseeable near-term future. I wrote an immediate follow up saying just that, but of course, I got a lot of readers from an Instalanche, which I didn't expect (no one expects an Instalanche!), and they just read the one post. So the second post is here; if you are thinking of making the argument that we should just get the state out of the marriage business, please read it.

Also, a lot of readers are saying that I'm wrong about marriage always being between a man and a woman, citing polygamy. I have been told this is a "basic factual error."

No, it's not. Polygamous societies do not (at least in any society I have ever heard about) have group marriages. Men with more than one wife have multiple marriages with multiple women, not a single marriage with several wives. In fact, they generally take pains to separate the women, preferably in different houses. Whether or not you allow men to contract for more than one marriage (and for all sorts of reasons, this seems to me to be a bad idea unless you're in an era of permanent war), each marriage remains the union of a man and a woman.
_________________________
...
Propping up an obsolete fishing industry at the expense of sound fisheries management is irresponsible. -Sg



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#452065 - 09/08/08 12:14 AM Re: Sarah Palin shoot's....she scores! [Re: ]
fish4brains Offline
Dah Rivah Stinkah Pink Mastah

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 6210
Loc: zipper
Originally Posted By: blue water pro
No reply? Hello? Will this get a response?



IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.
_________________________
...
Propping up an obsolete fishing industry at the expense of sound fisheries management is irresponsible. -Sg



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