I have a challenge for those dudes in the photograph. Come out to one of the popular Eastern WA elk units during the last weekend of modern firearm and find a spike bull. Then see how far your $170,000 and your 6 F'n buddies gets ya.

Lmfao...

I have no doubt that they would find the biggest spike in the unit.
Dislike them as you may, they are VERY good at what they do....


http://mossback.com/Trophy_Gallery/trophy_gallery.html

Thats the bull that impresses me. You ask 1000 elk hunters where the best trophy potential lies,I'll bet 999 of them DON'T say Washington.

As far as the Governors tag goes. It sounds like a lot of you are jealous you don't have the cash to buy the tag yourself. The G tag isn't any different than getting drawn for an any bull tag. He just has the cash to guarantee getting drawn.

Another thing to consider,is that just because that bull was freak,doesn't mean that ANY of his offspring are now or ever will be in his class. To make bulls like that you need the cow to be the same kind of material. She needs great genetics as well. Just because he has big antlers,doesn't mean he can knock up any cow that walks by and get his clone.

It boils down to an individual's definition of Trophy. To me, any trophy is something hard-earned after years of diligence in pursuit and schooling ones self. These rich arrogant mutherphuckers that likely reak of 50-year old scotch and Cuban cigars that short circut that definition by cutting to the front of the line with their check book and a squad of executioners have lost sight of that. Much like an NFL coach going to the shop where the Heisman Trophy is made and buying it right off the self, where is the sense of accomplishment and pride in doing that?

You can defend these guys if you like, but the Governor's Tag senario is a wide sidestep around sportsmanship to say the least, as are the specifics related to the killing of a large number of animals in the record books.

Sal you need to load the boy up and make a trip up here to witness the march of the rifle carrying pumpkins. We call it our modern firearm elk season. In the most popular eastern WA units; regular joe can only shoot a spike bull. If you are lucky enough to draw a special permit for a bull or cow, your chances are a bit better. The season is only a week long capped by the weekends. By the last weekend the herds have been pushed, herded, scared, and ran up and down every frickin mountain in the east cascades. Usually they are nowhere to be found. They are in that magical spot where no hunters go. I would actually like to see if those mossback F'ers could pull it off.

I looked at their website. Wow, those are some magnificent animals. I couldn't help but notice there is a group photo for every kill. My best guess is that they have the hunter sit still in an area and the rest of the F sticks herd the critters to him.

Here is my rant on the gov's tag. I know a few people who work for WDFW. They had a picture of the bull that was taken with the WA gov tag . Really nice bull, they said potential new state record. The bad thing is that a bowhunter, who had drawn one of the very few bull tags for that area, had been scouting this bull for a very long time. He was actually there scouting the day the mob of guys showed up to kill this bull. Can you imagine how this guy felt when he found out that some rich [censored] paid out the ass to get into the area before anyone else had a chance (with a rifle noless).

Is it the money thing or the guide thing? Or both?

I understand the dislike of the guide gang thing for sure.

Guided fisheremen are buying their way to success too wouldn't you say?

That said, my most satisfying hunts have all been DIY affairs.


I know a guy that makes more money than he can spend, he hunts the world over with guides and without.

Not an arrogant assshole at all and one helluva hunter .

I hate arrogant pricks of all income levels.



I see these arguments ALL THE TIME!

The unguided guys beating up on the guided guy.

Guys that hunt public ground berating the guys that hunt private land.

Guys that hunt general units beating up on guys that hunt limited quota areas.

Muzzleloader hunters beating up on rifle guys.

Bowhunters beating up on rifle AND muzzleloader guys.

Recurve guys beating up on compound bowhunters.

Long bowhunters beating up on modern bowhunters.

Meat hunters berating trophy hunters.

God it gets old.

To each their own, that is why there are more choices than just Vanilla.

Both.

I've never once hunted with a guide. I never will. I have only fished with a guide once. I don't like having my hand held to do anything. I will say that at least the fisherman that chooses to go guided is relagated to the willingness of the fish to participate. No so with hunting. These Mossyback dudes remind me of Marshall Stockburn and his deputies gunning down the guy in the move Unforgiven. What chance did he have? Where does it end? One of those professional guys hobbling a few of those "trophys" and then calling checkbook boy in for the kill? Who F'n knows. I just know it's not for me and I don't respect the mentality.

The method in which this "team" of experts uses to find and kill these trophys is essentially "party hunting," which is specifically prohibited in the regulations and is illegal. I'm not sure how the state justifies it for the GT. These guys fan out over all the ridges in prime habit and glass for biggest animal they can find, watch it bed down and radio back the coordinates to the trigger-man, who ambles in at day break and goes "BANG." Add to that they are doing it with an "out-of-season" pass. I wouldn't have my picture taken with such an animal reguardless of how big it was.

This hunt was probably the exception to the rule, but they hunted this bull 26 days. The GOV tag does provide benefits to all sportsmen in the form of AH&E improvements. Not my choice, but I fail to see a big difference from an ethical stand point in how they did this and 6 of my buddies trying to help a friend fill his sheep tag here in oregon. They chose the mossback route with spotters all over the place to find one particualr ram. The only difference IMHO was money.

I think this is the crux of the whole argument for me. Combining radio's and GPS's, especially Garmin Rino's that also show your buddie's exact location, is a clear breach of fair chase in my opinion! It should be illigal in every state and is in many state's already of which I think Utah is one. I read recently that a few state's are monitoring radio frequencie's and handing out tickets for "party hunting." I've got no problem with that. Now if this guy and this Mossback group met back at camp each night, pulled out a map, and planned the next day's hunt which happend to culminate with this incredible Bull then good for them! As unfair as it may be, for me, with the money involved I don't think that is the case and this hunt just don't meet the sniff test.

Trophy's are different for everyone. I'm gearing up for my 3rd serious hunt and have purchased probably 8-10 deer tags. I've yet to pull the trigger. For me a trophy is when I head out for a well planned still hunt (usually alone) and beat any legal buck at it's own game in it's own backyard! Now this guy may totally agree with me and considers this hunt nothing more then a unique oppertunity and a chance to give a whole bunch of money to a resource he deeply cares about. Who knows?

For me no matter the tools chosen or the money spent it's all about fair chase! Without it there is no trophy!

Sol,
I have a ton of respect for you.
Few people have anything on you when it comes to fishing big steelhead.
We are going to have to disagree on a few points regarding guided hunting though.
If you have never been on a guided hunt and really don't have anything to base your judgement on.

Lots of guys that have never been on one share your sentiment.

I'm not into a guide holding my hand walking me up to the corn flinger and saying "shoot him".

I have had a passion for the big game animals of North America all my life.

Highest on my list are some of the world's most difficult to hunt animals.
I daydream about going sheep hunting in the far north some day.

Laws and logistics mandate the use of a guide to hunt Dall or Stone sheep.

Those hunts are not "gentlemen's hunts" instead they test the guide and client to the highest degree.

It becomes a team effort as both rely on each other for survival in extremely harsh vertical country miles away from civilization.

Certainly there are cushy guided hunts that require nothing more from the hunter than a leisurely stroll and the pull of a trigger.

I enjoy hunting on my own and will continue to as long as I can, but given a chance, I'd jump on several guided hunts and be rightfully proud of the "Trophy" I was able to take.

A good mountain guide ain't doing anything I don't do when hunting big mountain country.
Burning legs and lungs followed by glassing intentley for that one special animal.
Some of the most memorable times spent on a hunt are the harsh living conditions endured while living in the wilderness testing your survival skills and mental toughness.

On my guided brown bear hunt, my pack weighed just as much as my guide's, we siwashed out in the rain and snow and I spotted the bear before he did.

I suppose if I could, I'd first opt to hunt them on my own, but I can't.

I'd trade places with this guy in a New York minute and nobody could tell me it wasn't a hard earned trophy even though a guide was used.

I may have been a bit "harsh" with my anti-guide sentiment. There is definately a time and place for them. If I ever get a chance to arrow a brown or grizzy bear at close range, which is on my life list BTW, I damn sure want a guide in the distance drawing a bead on the bear for safe measure. The hunts that require a guide are also understandable.

I guess what really chaps my hyde about the GT hunts is the combination of purchased privledge and using a gang of dudes to do the actual hunting. That shi% is fuc%ed-up.

I am with you on almost every aspect of what you have said Sol

It is exactly that. Purchased priviledge. Nothing more. Now if the guy had gone in and done it himself that would be another story completely. But shelling out the money to outdo anyone with the tag, and then having six other guys find the target and take him to it, how is that sport at all. Sounds like a guy that I used to work for. Everyone does all the work and then he would run to the boss man with his knee pads on and say look what I did. When the only thing that guy did for himsef was dip his hands in the pile of paint that teacher poured out for him to smear all over the blank contruction paper that teacher laid out for. I say the trophy goes on his wall, but his name doesn't. Just my opinion.

It took 25 days for 7 guys to find that Bull in that open country ? After knowing where it was ? I cant see how anyone of them can be that much of a Hunter. But It is the most beautiful freak I've ever seen in my life.

Glad that wasn't my quote.

You certainly would not see the numerous 400 bulls that they have to their credit if Mossback were hunting any other state than Utah (Well maybe Arizona).

However, they would be just about the best anywhere they went.

A close friend of mine is an elk hunting machine.
He has hunted them in several states every year for twenty plus years looking for big bulls.
One year he went guided with Kim Bonnet's outfit, Bucks & Bulls outfitters in Utah.
He ended up killing a near 370 bull after a long hunt.

He later told me that his guide was the most knowledgeble human being that he had ever met when it came to elk and elk hunting.

That guide has worked for Doyle Moss for the last several years.

I've heard similar comments regarding some of his other guides as well.

Dislike the gang style hunting tactics all you want, but to claim that those guys are unskilled hunters is well...foolish at best.

I agree with what you are saying here Salmonella. They are very skilled people as a collective. And you don't find animals like that very often on dumb luck alone. They have to know what they are doing for sure. It would be nice to see some sort law in place to atleast balance the scale a bit. Great for the guy that can afford to outbid everyone for the tag. But I don't see how it is fair chase or sportsman like to be allowed to hire a small army to do the work. I'll stop now though. Cause this is one of those things that can be ran in to the dirt and all you would be is a little deeper than you were when you started. Single guides are good ethics, resonably sporting and a good way to learn an area and animal tendencies.

As far as moneys being used for good purposes, that is debatable at best. I personally have seen "improvements" made to small areas where I live right now. And to be frank, they were the biggest damn waste of over $250,000 of fishery and hunting invested funds. Every last bit of it was made into observatory property that can not be touched. Cougars run around the area killing peoples dogs, the building that is supposed to be the vistor center can't be used, the restoration of the river is for planted hatchery fish, and the access to it is based on whether or not you care to walk down a hill a mile or attempt the crossing of a major highway that is riddled with multiple vehicular deaths and collisions on nearly a monthly basis. So how are we benefiting as sportsman from that? I have personally talked to the person who is very proudly responsible for it and they have very little answers to any questions and only seem to care about where the funding is going to come from for the next part of the project. Which last time I had the displeasure of hearing from was apparently trying to solve the elk problem in the area. By asking for more money. Yes, I am a skeptic at best.

A couple more bulls from this year.

Both over 400"'

A wild free ranging bull from,,,,,,Nebraska.




A wild free ranging bull from the San Carlos Indian rez in Arizona.

History has proven excesive amounts of money makes people stupid. These guys could buy 350 to 400 inch bull racks online for $3.00 to $4.00 per inch if they are going to shortcut the sport aspect of hunting and harvesting one on their own. These clowns paid $340/per inch for the "Spidey" bull, and $140/per inch for the "Birdbath" bull, and that's not including guide fees.

I bet they wipe their asses with seanotes.

That last bull is massive. I just wonder how the hell they got the bull in the back of the truck though. It does not appear to cleaned or anything either. Wow.

Looks they were on a farm Pug. My guess is farm implements!
Our camp has shot one elk near enough to a road that we were able to winch it up to the road using snatch blocks and then above the road. We then lowered it into the bed of the pickup. It was pretty cool to watch. Dudes said that in 26 years of camp that was a first.