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#459347 - 10/11/08 10:17 PM Re: It won't matter who is president [Re: Jaba'da butt]
bodysurf Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 11/28/01
Posts: 324
Loc: olympia
if you want a so-called free-market ,laissez-faire approach to the economy you're going to get big boom-bust cycles...the USA suffered DEPRESSIONS every 30 years or so until the great depression when people decided that a regulated market and a little socialism may be a good thing...the only thing preventing a total collapse of the financial markets now are some remnants of the New Deal that everyone's been trying to dismantle...you can't have it both ways...if you ascribe to the greenspan..freidman..ron paul free market philosophy that's what you get....ever play monopoly? that's what will happen....and is ...
this blind devotion to 'free trade' instead of fair trade has caused americans' standard of living race to the bottom and destroyed any manufacturing base we'd had except for arms sales...boeing's making a lot of money on that...the disparity in wealth is as wide as it was in the Gilded Age...
the great depression created an opportunity for the working people to get a little more equality and concessions from the powerful....willl we do it now?
..on his death bed Eugene Debbs was asked if he had any regrets...he said..."I regret that the american people could have anything they want but they seem to want so little of anything..." ..will that be us?

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#459359 - 10/12/08 12:10 AM Re: It won't matter who is president [Re: bodysurf]
ParaLeaks Offline
WINNER

Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 10363
Loc: Olypen
It seems there is always the pendulum affect.....first too far one way and then too far the other.
Unions came about as a result of worker abuse by Corporate Heads, so to speak.
Now, we have reached the point where employers have to slow production so a worker can have a baby for instance, or has trouble getting rid of an unsatisfactory employee. It's things like these that hurt the golden goose called a pay check. (flame away if you like, but you know it's true). One of the self defeating things that come with unions is a "it's not my job" and "why should I do more?" attitude that employers are forced to swallow. And it's that swallowing that cuts profits. No profits, no employees. There also is a general attitude of "You owe me" and "How can I get something for nothing" life style that leeches from everyone and kills any desire to do an honest day's work for an honest day's pay.

OK, I done. Just my random two cents worth.
_________________________
Agendas kill truth.
If it's a crop, plant it.




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#459364 - 10/12/08 01:27 AM Re: It won't matter who is president [Re: bodysurf]
KoneZone Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 190
Loc: Forest Grove, Oregon
It surprises me that folks don't seem to understand what happened. As long ago as 1992 through 2008 Politicians rigged the system requiring banks to lend to complete deadbeats. They didn't have a snowballs chance in hell of paying the debt. It was slowly brought into play in the name of FAIRNESS with the threat of RACISM. How could you blame a bank for trying to shift that kind of debt? It's all there for the world to see and it should be uncovered by a special prosecutor, unless the ones that orchestrated it remain in power. I pray that enough people will realize the power of their voice and don't just waste it on a popular thought. Free trade is the American way and it keeps things healthy. If Sam sells sinkers for too high a price then Lenny's lead service will step up to the plate and the market will even out. RANT OVER. I sure love our country. grin
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#459366 - 10/12/08 02:21 AM Re: It won't matter who is president [Re: ParaLeaks]
Erik Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/11/99
Posts: 383
Loc: North of Seattle/ South of For...
Originally Posted By: Slab Happy
One of the self defeating things that come with unions is a "it's not my job" and "why should I do more?" attitude that employers are forced to swallow. And it's that swallowing that cuts profits. No profits, no employees.


I pay union dues myself and couldn't agree more. I had this conversation with a sprinkler fitter this last summer right after they settled their strike. He felt that the hefty raise he got was justified and the cost would/ should be passed on to the end user. Guess what- he's lookin for work. doh

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#459409 - 10/12/08 08:02 PM Re: It won't matter who is president [Re: KoneZone]
goharley Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/27/02
Posts: 3188
Loc: U.S. Army
Originally Posted By: KoneZone
It surprises me that folks don't seem to understand what happened.


I couldn't agree more. Please read this and this.

Free trade is the American way, but unregulated free trade has caused every financial crisis the United States has experienced in its history.
_________________________
Tent makers for Christie, 2016.

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#459411 - 10/12/08 08:07 PM Re: It won't matter who is president [Re: hohbomb73]
big moby Offline
Carcass

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 2150
Loc: varies
Originally Posted By: hohbomb73
A Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall

Oh, where have you been, my blue-eyed son?
Oh, where have you been, my darling young one?
I've stumbled on the side of twelve misty mountains,
I've walked and I've crawled on six crooked highways,
I've stepped in the middle of seven sad forests,
I've been out in front of a dozen dead oceans,
I've been ten thousand miles in the mouth of a graveyard,
And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, and it's a hard,
And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

Oh, what did you see, my blue-eyed son?
Oh, what did you see, my darling young one?
I saw a newborn baby with wild wolves all around it
I saw a highway of diamonds with nobody on it,
I saw a black branch with blood that kept drippin',
I saw a room full of men with their hammers a-bleedin',
I saw a white ladder all covered with water,
I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken,
I saw guns and sharp swords in the hands of young children,
And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard,
And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

And what did you hear, my blue-eyed son?
And what did you hear, my darling young one?
I heard the sound of a thunder, it roared out a warnin',
Heard the roar of a wave that could drown the whole world,
Heard one hundred drummers whose hands were a-blazin',
Heard ten thousand whisperin' and nobody listenin',
Heard one person starve, I heard many people laughin',
Heard the song of a poet who died in the gutter,
Heard the sound of a clown who cried in the alley,
And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard,
And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

Oh, who did you meet, my blue-eyed son?
Who did you meet, my darling young one?
I met a young child beside a dead pony,
I met a white man who walked a black dog,
I met a young woman whose body was burning,
I met a young girl, she gave me a rainbow,
I met one man who was wounded in love,
I met another man who was wounded with hatred,
And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard,
It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

Oh, what'll you do now, my blue-eyed son?
Oh, what'll you do now, my darling young one?
I'm a-goin' back out 'fore the rain starts a-fallin',
I'll walk to the depths of the deepest black forest,
Where the people are many and their hands are all empty,
Where the pellets of poison are flooding their waters,
Where the home in the valley meets the damp dirty prison,
Where the executioner's face is always well hidden,
Where hunger is ugly, where souls are forgotten,
Where black is the color, where none is the number,
And I'll tell it and think it and speak it and breathe it,
And reflect it from the mountain so all souls can see it,
Then I'll stand on the ocean until I start sinkin',
But I'll know my song well before I start singin',
And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard,
It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

-Bob Dylan



Weird, I was just listening to that song yesterday
_________________________
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#459413 - 10/12/08 08:10 PM Re: It won't matter who is president [Re: ParaLeaks]
Chum Man Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/07/99
Posts: 2685
Loc: Yelmish
Originally Posted By: Slab Happy
One of the self defeating things that come with unions is a "it's not my job" and "why should I do more?" attitude that employers are forced to swallow.

OK, I done. Just my random two cents worth.
with more responsibility comes more pay, at least in a perfect world. how would you like it if your employer added a bunch of additional job duties to you and your co-workers, but refused to give you a raise?

it's a slippery slope, some unions have become all-powerful and abusive(UAW in detroit for example), others, like the one i'm in, have very little power other than at least getting token negotiations out of the company. you can't lump them all together.

i'm on the verge of losing my job(on or around november 7th). it's a tough time to work in the newspaper world as it is, and with the added crashing economy, even worse.

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#459422 - 10/12/08 08:50 PM Re: It won't matter who is president [Re: Chum Man]
willametteriveroutlaw Offline
Spawner

Registered: 10/26/02
Posts: 908
Loc: Idaho
To top things off chinook fishing is shitty!
_________________________
Facts don't care about your feelings..

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#459447 - 10/12/08 10:14 PM Re: It won't matter who is president [Re: ]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27838
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
I wouldn't worry about the letters, Hank...all politicians of every stripe need a little dressing down every once in a while...reminds them that they have actual constituents out there.

Fish on...

Todd
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Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#459486 - 10/12/08 11:32 PM Re: It won't matter who is president [Re: ]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27838
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Yer luckier than the rest of us, Hank...Progressives don't demand adherence to a party line, one that is retarded-like illogical...it's our biggest problem, to be honest.

Getting all the Progressives in line is like herding cats...we all tend to think for ourselves and are almost as hard on our own leadership as we are on the jacknobs who have been in charge the past several years.

Thankfully the RWWJ's have given us enough issues to fall in line behind that the upcoming elections are going to be a rout.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#459513 - 10/13/08 12:46 AM Re: It won't matter who is president [Re: ]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27838
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
However you want to analogize it, the fact is we have too many diverse ideas...which is encouraged...to have a concrete party line to delineate on talk shows in the form of talking points...logical or not...for regurgitating back in any forum, including fishing BB's.

It takes a real failure like what we've been seeing out of the Republican Party over the past several years to get us to agree on much...and we all agree that the first thing we have to do is get rid of all of them, and then we'll work on our own differences.

Some might say that this phenomenon is the most constructive thing that the Repubs have managed since 2000...

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#459524 - 10/13/08 03:18 AM Re: It won't matter who is president [Re: ]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27838
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Bill Clinton knew how to watch the purse strings...you don't have to be a Republican to be fiscally conservative...and if the past eight years haven't proven that, than nothing ever will.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#459784 - 10/14/08 10:25 AM Re: It won't matter who is president [Re: KoneZone]
nookie dreamin' Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 937
Loc: Everwet
Originally Posted By: KoneZone
I would agree with you 100% if the title wasn't so dead wrong. Our Nation is on the brink and it will make a huge difference. As far as the work goes I agree. Lot's of folks are in for a real wake up call. I have no need to look at a man's skin. The color of his heart is what matters to me. Everybody will have to scramble to survive. The freeloaders will be crying the blues when the Government can't meet their needs. Plant your garden and tend it well. It just might be a cold and long winter. God Bless us all.

This economy has forced me to do something I have'nt had to do in almost 30 years. Interviewing for a job this morning, as I am basically starving to death as a small business owner. I am confident I'll get the job, and I am reducing the number of hours that my store is open, until such a time as I can sell out and start fresh.. Lots to be said for a steady paycheck. We have to do what we have to do.. Good luck to everyone..
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#459788 - 10/14/08 11:11 AM Re: It won't matter who is president [Re: ]
Dave Vedder Offline
Reverend Tarpones

Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 8379
Loc: West Duvall
Originally Posted By: Hankster
All bills that are passed are done so "along party lines" and there has to be some some better cohesion in Congress so that there are bi-partisan efforts to get things done without all of the rancor,name-calling and outright bullheadedness that exists.


I agree. There is waaaaay too much concern about party and too little about America. We are, at least in part, responsible. We need to hold candidates accountable for the B.S. they spout. McCain say he will balance the budget in four years. Does anyone really believe that? Obama has also made unrealistic promises. There is no accountability. If they knew all hell would break loose wheN their promises are broken they might be a bit more honest. But we have come to expect to be lied to and take it like a well deserved beating. Just watch the debates and you will see numerous half truths, outright lies and pure B.S. But no one seems to care. Why is that?


Edited by Dave Vedder (10/14/08 11:21 AM)
_________________________
No huevos no pollo.

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#459796 - 10/14/08 12:04 PM Re: It won't matter who is president [Re: Dave Vedder]
Mike Hawk Offline
Fry

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 33
You know, I think it bears mention that if we lived in South America, The former Czech republic, Africa, or countless other countries, the current state of affairs would be cause for a revolution...... I know, I know, its a hell of a reach, but countries actually HAVE overthrown their respective governments for less. Our current system of government has become too comfortable with itself and in its knowledge that the American public will never hold it (the government) accountable for its actions..... Imagine how much more thought you'd put into your decisions if you knew that the masses would drag you from the oval office and hang you on the whitehouse lawn if they didnt like the job you're doing. Maybe we could do with a little bit of anarchy.....

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#459798 - 10/14/08 12:27 PM Re: It won't matter who is president [Re: Mike Hawk]
Illahee Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 3771
With the impending doom of the Republican party on our nearing election day, one might say we are going to have a bloodless revolution in our country.
Maybe not as fun as putting their heads on a stake, but none the less just as effective.

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