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#539717 - 09/21/09 08:36 PM Re: Is this what Obamacare would look like? [Re: hohbomb73]
RowVsWade Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 3359
Loc: Island Time
Originally Posted By: hohbomb73
How compassionate was it to shoot your dad, asshat??rofl



WTF?????

You really are f.cking idiot.....
_________________________
"...the pool hall I loved as a kid is now a 7-11..."

If you don't like our prices bring your wife down and we'll dicker.

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#539719 - 09/21/09 08:37 PM Re: Is this what Obamacare would look like? [Re: RowVsWade]
hohbomb73 Offline
D.E.A

Registered: 04/02/06
Posts: 1672
Loc: in da hood
At least I didn't shoot my dad...

wink
_________________________
So save me your sorries, I'm raising an army...

Fortes Fortuna Adiuvat.





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#539720 - 09/21/09 08:39 PM Re: Is this what Obamacare would look like? [Re: RowVsWade]
hohbomb73 Offline
D.E.A

Registered: 04/02/06
Posts: 1672
Loc: in da hood
Originally Posted By: RowVsWade


You really are f.cking idiot.....



Did those mean prison guards teach you grammar?
_________________________
So save me your sorries, I'm raising an army...

Fortes Fortuna Adiuvat.





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#539723 - 09/21/09 08:41 PM Re: Is this what Obamacare would look like? [Re: hohbomb73]
RowVsWade Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 3359
Loc: Island Time
Originally Posted By: hohbomb73
At least I didn't shoot my dad...

wink


This [censored] is over your head and reasonable discussion is too....I understand you limitations. Really I do.
_________________________
"...the pool hall I loved as a kid is now a 7-11..."

If you don't like our prices bring your wife down and we'll dicker.

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#539732 - 09/21/09 08:59 PM Re: Is this what Obamacare would look like? [Re: hohbomb73]
IrishRogue Offline
Poon it! Poon it! Poon it!

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 1714
Loc: Yarrow Point
RvW,

Actually, I think most people will read our two messages and conclude that in fact *you* are the guy who's confused:

a) CPR isn't ordinary care? Really? I learned how to do it when I was 14, as did lots of other 14 year olds. 14 year olds are not a lot of things, but ordinary comes to mind.

b) You then go off and talk about bridges being built even though they might fail some day. While I appreciate and agree with this pragmatic and candidly pretty obvious point, I have no idea how it relates to the topic at hand.

c) Your point about "more than once this ridiculously expensive technique saved a life!!!" proves you missed my point.

What if I told you there was a 1 in 100 procedure, cost $1000, that could save a baby's life. Would you do it? What if it cost $10,000. What if it cost $100,000? What if it cost $1,000,000. This is a legitimate medical ethics question--and we must get comfortable with answering it. At the extremes, the answers are easy -- you would obviously spend $10, for a 1% chance at saving a baby's life. You would obviously NOT spend $1 Billion to save the baby's life. Somewhere in the middle is the uncomfortable place where yes turns into no. Modern technology has made this scenario not theoretical, but actual. We must decide.
_________________________
The charm of fishing is that it is the pursuit of what is elusive but attainable, a perpetual series of occasions for hope. -John Buchan

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#539733 - 09/21/09 09:03 PM Re: Is this what Obamacare would look like? [Re: IrishRogue]
RowVsWade Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 3359
Loc: Island Time
Originally Posted By: IrishRogue
The engineers building the bridge you drove across this AM didn't build it to never fail, they built it to have an acceptable risk of not failing.


Still confused...or are ya' having following your own line of "reasoning"?
_________________________
"...the pool hall I loved as a kid is now a 7-11..."

If you don't like our prices bring your wife down and we'll dicker.

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#539738 - 09/21/09 09:14 PM Re: Is this what Obamacare would look like? [Re: RowVsWade]
IrishRogue Offline
Poon it! Poon it! Poon it!

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 1714
Loc: Yarrow Point
Originally Posted By: RowVsWade
Originally Posted By: IrishRogue
The engineers building the bridge you drove across this AM didn't build it to never fail, they built it to have an acceptable risk of not failing.


Still confused...or are ya' having following your own line of "reasoning"?


No, you're just confused. Let me see if I can un-confuse you with a scenario: Ask yourself this question -- what magnitude earthquake could said bridge withstand as you drove across it. There absolutely *is* a point at which it'll collapse... Guaranteed. And a whole bunch of "Bridge DEATH PANEL members" made up some engineering guidelines for what reasonable bridge building standards are.

These are all life-and-death decisions, and the reason you make standards up in advance is so that the emotion of a singular situation doesn't cause you to constantly make bad decisions. This holds for bridge building, and for decisions about what extrordinary measures should be used to attempt to save individual lives.


Edited by IrishRogue (09/21/09 09:15 PM)
_________________________
The charm of fishing is that it is the pursuit of what is elusive but attainable, a perpetual series of occasions for hope. -John Buchan

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#539741 - 09/21/09 09:18 PM Re: Is this what Obamacare would look like? [Re: RowVsWade]
goharley Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/27/02
Posts: 3188
Loc: U.S. Army
So, RvW, are you implying that here in the good ol' USA--ranked 37th in the world on healthcare, btw--this scenario would never play out as long as we stop "Obamacare?" It's because the UK has socialized healthcare that this happened?

Why didn't that lady have supplemental health insurance? After 5 miscarriages she didn't think that might be wise? There's no law in the UK forbidding additional insurance. So why is it the government's fault?

Are you honestly going to try and convince us that here in the US--most expensive healthcare in the world with least return, btw--if she was lucky enough to find insurance after having 5 miscarriages, that the insurance company wouldn't have made the same decision? C'mon, now.
_________________________
Tent makers for Christie, 2016.

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#539742 - 09/21/09 09:19 PM Re: Is this what Obamacare would look like? [Re: IrishRogue]
RowVsWade Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 3359
Loc: Island Time
IR-------I agree with everything in your last post! Nothing lasts forever...hence my........." Engineers and the other examples you cite don't guarantee that the bridge will last forever anymore than doctors do...everything will eventually fail but should the bridge not have been built because we know it won't last forever? Should the doctor not try his/her best because they know death is possible and eventually inevitable?"


I suppose that your "bridge death panels" would be my "doctors consulting" with each other to find the best course of treatment for the Bridge/Patient.




Edited by RowVsWade (09/21/09 09:19 PM)
_________________________
"...the pool hall I loved as a kid is now a 7-11..."

If you don't like our prices bring your wife down and we'll dicker.

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#539743 - 09/21/09 09:20 PM Re: Is this what Obamacare would look like? [Re: RowVsWade]
RowVsWade Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 3359
Loc: Island Time
No only if that's the model we use.
_________________________
"...the pool hall I loved as a kid is now a 7-11..."

If you don't like our prices bring your wife down and we'll dicker.

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#539747 - 09/21/09 09:38 PM Re: Is this what Obamacare would look like? [Re: RowVsWade]
hohbomb73 Offline
D.E.A

Registered: 04/02/06
Posts: 1672
Loc: in da hood
Originally Posted By: RowVsWade

Still confused...or are ya' having following your own line of "reasoning"?


Having what???

"TROUBLE"?!? (with grammar again?)
_________________________
So save me your sorries, I'm raising an army...

Fortes Fortuna Adiuvat.





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#539755 - 09/21/09 09:54 PM Re: Is this what Obamacare would look like? [Re: hohbomb73]
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 16958
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
Originally Posted By: IR
What if I told you there was a 1 in 100 procedure, cost $1000, that could save a baby's life. Would you do it? What if it cost $10,000. What if it cost $100,000? What if it cost $1,000,000. This is a legitimate medical ethics question--and we must get comfortable with answering it. At the extremes, the answers are easy -- you would obviously spend $10, for a 1% chance at saving a baby's life. You would obviously NOT spend $1 Billion to save the baby's life. Somewhere in the middle is the uncomfortable place where yes turns into no. Modern technology has made this scenario not theoretical, but actual. We must decide.


In a nutshell.

I guess that everyone can keep clapping their gums, but that said all there is to say that matters.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

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#539793 - 09/21/09 11:26 PM Re: Is this what Obamacare would look like? [Re: ]
AP a.k.a. Kaiser D Offline
Hippie

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 4450
Loc: B'ham
I didn't realize "Obamacare" was already in action. If it isn't, how did this happen?

Did someone get shot?

Surprised to see AM throwing some logic into the mix... a nice change I must say. Quality of life AFTER a medical procedure SHOULD be a deciding factor. I'm pretty sure that I could keep my dog alive for another couple of years but I doubt I will. frown That is life.

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#539809 - 09/22/09 12:17 AM Re: Is this what Obamacare would look like? [Re: ]
Twitch Offline
The Beav

Registered: 02/22/09
Posts: 2741
Loc: Oregon Central Coast
Originally Posted By: blue water pro
How about just giving the mother an injection to stop labour? Common enough & works in most cases.


Quote:
Miss Capewell, who has a five-year-old daughter Jodie, went into labour in October last year at 21 weeks and four days after suffering problems during her pregnancy.
She said she was told that because she had not reached 22 weeks, she was not allowed injections to try to stop the labour, or a steroid injection to help to strengthen her baby's lungs.

Instead, doctors told her to treat the labour as a miscarriage, not a birth, and to expect her baby to be born with serious deformities or even to be still-born.




That is one TINY hand...
_________________________
[Bleeeeep!], the cup of ignorance in this thread overfloweth . . . Salmo g
Truth be told, I've always been a fan of the Beavs. -Dan S.


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#539812 - 09/22/09 12:50 AM Re: Is this what Obamacare would look like? [Re: goharley]
Vic Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/05/00
Posts: 553
Loc: Everett, Wa, USA
Originally Posted By: goharley
So, RvW, are you implying that here in the good ol' USA--ranked 37th in the world on healthcare,


I am now intending to hijack this thread, but this ranking pisses me off. Here are the criteria that the WHO uses to rank countries healthcare. If you look at the criteria you will see that they favor socialized systems HEAVILY!

Five factors went into WHO's calculation:

• Health level, as defined by a measure of life expectancy, which shows how healthy a country's population is. This factor gets a 25 percent weight.

• Responsiveness, which includes factors such as speed of health services, privacy protections, choice of doctors and quality of amenities. This factor gets a 12.5 percent weight.

• Financial fairness, which measures how progressive or regressive the financing of a country's health care system is — that is, whether or not the financial burdens are borne by those who are economically better off. This factor receives a 25 percent weight.

• Health distribution, which measures how equally a nation's health care resources are allocated among the population. This factor receives a 25 percent weight.

• Responsiveness distribution, which measures how equally a nation's health care responsiveness (which we defined above) is spread through society. This factor gets a 12.5 percent weight.

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#539818 - 09/22/09 12:59 AM Re: Is this what Obamacare would look like? [Re: RowVsWade]
Keta Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/05/00
Posts: 1083
Common sense began and ended in the third post, by IrishRogue. From there on it's just responding to an individual that is clearly barking mad.

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#539819 - 09/22/09 01:06 AM Re: Is this what Obamacare would look like? [Re: Keta]
Vic Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/05/00
Posts: 553
Loc: Everett, Wa, USA
I didn't leave anything out. Those are their published criteria. But if you would like to discuss longevity perhaps we should factor in fatalities from auto accidents and the murder rate. We are the highest in the world in both categories, which does impact our life expectancy numbers. If you remove those from the figures our life expectancy goes up near the top.

Not going to argue cost, cause I am sure we agree something needs to be done. Based on other threads I know we won't agree how to get er done!

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#539825 - 09/22/09 01:23 AM Re: Is this what Obamacare would look like? [Re: ]
4Salt Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/07/00
Posts: 2955
Loc: Lynnwood, WA
Vic... you need to stop for a second... put aside that fierce nationalistic and partisan pride and realize that not everything bad is the fault of Obama and Democrats.

Until you do... the only person you're foolin' is yourself.
_________________________
A day late and a dollar short...

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#539828 - 09/22/09 01:28 AM Re: Is this what Obamacare would look like? [Re: 4Salt]
Vic Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/05/00
Posts: 553
Loc: Everett, Wa, USA
Uh??? Where did I even mention Obama? I posted the criteria that the WHO uses to rank healthcare.


Edited by Vic (09/22/09 01:30 AM)

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#539829 - 09/22/09 01:30 AM Re: Is this what Obamacare would look like? [Re: ]
Vic Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/05/00
Posts: 553
Loc: Everett, Wa, USA
So the 50,000 people that die on our roads every year don't impact the life expectancy numbers? How many other countries have a stat any where near that?


Edited by Vic (09/22/09 01:45 AM)

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