Did it ever occur to any of the brain trust that cooked up this plan that if less hatchery fish are desirable on the spawning beds, then perhaps we should plant fewer hatchery fish?

Sure, greed says we'd all like the nets off the rivers for wild fish sake and our sake. It won't happen because if it could have been done, it would have been done by now. It's 2009 you know?

So CCA see's the next best thing to have the nets be more selective so the 2% ESA fish killed will allow for them to kill more hatchery fish....

The only light i see out of this would be the netters not wanting to use a seine net.... But I can't imagine that.... Here Mr. Netter, with a little more effort and work you can have more hatchery fish to sell........

Keith

No can't do that, then we'll wake the sleeping giant and actually learn that what we have left for true self-sestaining native salmon populations and it would close fishing for good......

Keith

Boater, your right you did miss them. How's the net mending going? Maybe you should go work on your septic tank out back of the double wide? ZzzzzzZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.......ZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......................YAWN.............ZzZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..................... Just got off a hot bite in the tidewaters, much more interesting than this. Too bad seattle doesn't have a fall chinook river. Chromers down here in oregon baby.

Jeezus, salmon bake...I think you need medication.

Marsha, I guess this needs stating for the hundredth time on this topic...so long as the LCR seasons are set and based on allowable ESA impacts, the exact same amount of ESA fish will die no matter how selective the fishing technique is. The only thing that will change is how many hatchery fish can be harvested while using those ESA impacts.

It's not a "department hack" who says the commercial guys may be able to harvest more fish...it's the very department who has consistently and continually backed the commercial industry on the LCR for more impacts, more allocations, and more fish.

Fish on...

Todd

the entire point is to get more hatchery fish off the spawning grounds so they dont lose hatchery funding and the way they want to do that is to find a method for the commercials with a low release mortality rate so there esa take will go further, in other words, it will allow them to take more hatchery fish before they reach there esa take amount.

So far the Colville's have only been tested the gear on an unlisted stock -- the Upper Columbia summer chinook. There were 479 hatchery chinook caught during tribal ceremonial and subsistence fisheries last summer using beach and purse seines and small mesh tangle nets. Also swept in were 297 unmarked wild fish that were released. Only 26 wild summer chinook were killed -- 25 of them in the tangle nets.


Peone said that the tangle nets might not be an option in summer when the river water is too warm and the fish become easily stressed while tangled in the small-mesh gill-nets. The fish can't be left in the nets for long. The tangle nets are used on the lower Columbia during spring chinook fisheries and could be appropriate upriver in spring as well, Peone said.




The seines performed with a direct mortality rate of well below 1 percent, according to Steve Smith, a consultant for the tribes. The purse and beach seines basically encircle the fish and allow hatchery fish to be plucked out and fish without a fin clip left in the water. Keith Kutchins supervised the seining operation, which leaves the captured fish, essentially, free swimming.


"He said they're very calm. They're not stressed," Smith said. The purse seine experiment in all netted 544 sockeye salmon and 314 hatchery and 112 wild summer chinook without a wild fatality. The beach seining netted 28 sockeye, 184 hatchery chinook and 99 wild chinook. One wild summer chinook died.


Summary
Beach and Purse Seine nets AND A TANGLE NET

479 hatchery
297 WILD FISH
-------------------
776 TOTAL
1 FISH DIED IN THE SEINE
25 FISH DIED IN THE TANGLE

ALSO
PURSE SEINE NET
544 SOCKEY
314 HATCHERY FISH
112 WILD SUMMER KINGS
-------------------------------
970 TOATL FISH LIVE FISH
ZERO DIED

ALSO
BEACH SEINE NET
028 SOCKEYE
184 HATCHERY KING
099 WILD KING
-----------------------
311 TOTAL FISH
-1 WILD KING DIED

TOTAL HATCHERY 977
TOTAL WILD 508
TOTAL SOCKEYE 572

TOTAL DEAD FISH FROM SEINE NETS 2
TOTAL DEAD FISH FROM TANGLE 25

WHAT IF 977 HATCHERY FISH WERE HATCHERY STEELHEAD?
Those would be released to be available for sport catch.
Currently hatchery steel die in gillnets, but arent counted.

thats because they were not here.

Lead Bouncer,

Seine Nets = 1% mortality rate?

That's some exciting news for the wild fish...................

So, logic would say that when CCA forces the Non-Tribal commercial fisherman to seine nets, they essentially would be able to fish the entire springer season? I'm not into doing the math right now but 1% is a double edge sword....

Keith

If the release mortality currently is something like 18%, then if they go to 1% mortality with seines, they will harvest 18 times as many hatchery fish.

That's what's going to make sportfishing better?

Fish on...

Todd

Just admit it!
You would prefer they selectively kill wild fish so they reach there impacts faster.

Summary
Beach and Purse Seine nets AND A TANGLE NET

479 hatchery
297 WILD FISH
------------------- 776 TOTAL total kill percentage 3.35
1 FISH DIED IN THE SEINE
25 FISH DIED IN THE TANGLE net

ALSO
PURSE SEINE NET
544 SOCKEY
314 HATCHERY FISH
112 WILD SUMMER KINGS
-------------------------------
970 TOATL FISH LIVE FISH Total percentage died 0%
ZERO DIED

ALSO
BEACH SEINE NET
028 SOCKEYE
184 HATCHERY KING
099 WILD KING
-----------------------
311 TOTAL FISH Total percentage died .32%
-1 WILD KING DIED

TOTAL HATCHERY 977
TOTAL WILD 508
TOTAL SOCKEYE 572

TOTAL DEAD FISH FROM SEINE NETS 2
TOTAL DEAD FISH FROM TANGLE 25

WHAT IF 977 HATCHERY FISH WERE HATCHERY STEELHEAD?
Those would be released to be available for sport catch.
Currently hatchery steel die in gillnets, but arent counted.

Todd, what's your solution/ alternative to the CCA plan that would save wild steel that spawn In lower CR tribs or are you giving up on those fish? Sandy, clack etc....... So now I'm the biggest dish!t on the the lower columbia who needs to be medicated. You and riley c. Look like the biggest doughballs I ever seen in salmon steelhead journal. Bet you won't get your ugly mug printed In that fine CCA supporting chronicle after showing how much you despise the CCA. Let's hear your reasonable alternative to this plan that you think might actually work.

Wonder what the market value of this fish is compared to how much the tribes spent to hire the white guys to catch it is ?

No, keith its not a double edged sword. Its an irrelevant number.

Now, that the state sees that commercial netters and tribal netters are NOT REQUIRED TO KILL WILD FISH, IN ORDER TO CATCH THEIR QUOTA, the number becomes irrelevant. The state can therefore use a completely different criteria to determine the quota.

leadbouncer just a quick question, if the gillnetters on the lcr changed to a method that had the same release mortality rate as sports and the esa take was split 50-50 in the spring chinook fishery how do you think the non-tribal share of the hatchery fish would be allocated ?

Just so we are clear on LB's statement, the criteria can be changed by the"states", meaning this chocolate covered turd of an idea has to be sold in Salem, and being the greedy sportanger that I am, I will dedicate as much of my time that is necessary to stop this idiotic idea of super sizing the commercial gillnet fleet, in order to kill the hatchery fish we raised, but really don't want.

And what might that criteria to determine their quota be? Or has CCA thought that far ahead?

Keith

LeadBouncer, their "QUOTA" is not how many hatchery fish they catch...it's how many wild fish they kill while doing it.

For the 101st time, that's why this will not put one single additional wild spring Chinook on the spawning grounds...they will fish until they kill their share of the wild ESA springers, just like we will, and the tribes will.

How is such a fundamental tenet of how LCR fisheries are crafted, in spite of it being spelled out here by many folks, repeatedly, so easily misunderstood, or ignored?

salmon bake, we're not talking about steelhead, as we already established back when you started in on this thread.

If we were talking about steelhead, then this will definitely help.

However, neither the commercial industry, nor WDFW...nor the CCA...is making that argument.

The CCA is saying this will be great for wild salmon that will be released, and that more will spawn and fishing will be so much better...and on those counts, they couldn't be more wrong, as evidenced by LB's continued failure to grasp how LCR fisheries are crafted.

WDFW isn't even bothering with any of that drivel...they just say it like it is...this is intended to allow the commercial fishermen access to many more hatchery fish while burning through their ESA impact allocations.

If there were anything at all useful about this for the salmon, either the ESA salmon or the sportfishing, then I could understand where the CCA is coming from, even were it a baby step...the problem is that this program will not do any of the things that the CCA thinks it will, and therefore is not only not a "baby step", it's no step at all, except backwards.

Fish on...

Todd

If the impact on wild winter steelhead was drastically reduced imagine the great returns we would see in just a few short years. So much money has been spent on habitat restoration on lower CR tribs. For these wild steelhead to recover. The only missing ingredient is spawning wild adults which get raped by gillnets. Without these nets hundreds of more steelies will spawn. Its that simple. With the shifts in hatcheries to wild broodstock, in which the hatchery runs come in march and early april ( clackamas gets lots of winter steel in april even into may) we would see much better returns without gillnets. Hatchery summer steelhead climbing willamette falls, supplying tens of thousands of fish to willamette valley steelheaders would see way more fish without gillnets. The lower columbia trib. Fish impacts will be near zero without gillnets and that's exiting news for die hard steelheaders that would rather not buy a 50,000 dollar sled for a three week season.