How many tax dollars are going into the project? I couldn't find anything when doing a cursory search.

It's pretty simple. Vote out those you don't agree with. The people spoke their will via the initiative. The legislature has the legal authority to ignore the will of the people. The people have the right to toss out the legislators that offend them. Pretty good system actually.

I have no problem with cutting/restraining taxes, but get pissed when the ones who complain about taxes complain about not getting the services they want.

I was in New York recently and folks were up in arms becasue they were considering cutting garbage service back to once a week. People get used to any service you provide and squeel if you try to reduce it.

Another simple problem fixed is to cut mail delivery to five days a week, like many countries have done for years. No big problem and a huge savings.

This is a prime example of how the ferderal government holds a gun to the head of states. By spending a certain amount of money the feds grant the states money for added benefits. Putting the states at the whim of the feds and causing them to spend money they don't have.

By refusing to address the budget issue with cuts and running an end around I-960 the dems are committing politcal suicide. If I'm in financial trouble personally I don't go out and borrow more money to cover my bills. I sell the driftboat, cancel the vacation, and start eating top ramen for a while.

The current path most state governments and the federal government are on is unsustainable. If the current course is continued then foreign creditors will run for the door and there will be a currency crisis almost overnight. Anyone who believes otherwise or that America is imune to such happenings is completely ignorant. A cursory look at history will show you that no fiat currency has survived for more than 60 years. This is why the founders granted only Congress (not the Federal Reserves banksters) the power to coin money and regulate the value thereof and that only gold and silver should be legal tender for all transactions.

Until this country wakes up and realizes that the value of their money is being inflated away by overspending gov'ts and private banks all to willing to create out of thin air for them, then we will contiune down this path of budget crisis' and never ending inflation.

I was thinkin' the exact same thing GH?

Also, which taxes are going to go up exactly and by how much I wonder?

It sounds great to say "Democrats are gonna raise taxes and screw the citizens of this state"... but the facts NEVER quite seem to support that assertion?

I wonder why that is...

That's not what it sounds like at all to me. Sounds more like the Fed saying, "I'm not going to fix your entire problem. You put in X-amount of dollars, and then I'll help you out with the rest."

Somewhere in the equation is a threshold of X-amount set by the Fed, either arbitrarily or through some mind-numbing algorithm. Whatever. Washington state just happened to realize that by spending an addditional small amount--relatively speaking--they gained a good amount in return. It's actually quite smart and quite common in business practice.

WOW I finally read a KK post that made sense. Way to go.

KK is right on the statement above, it is a worldwide crisis.

But I certainly don't agree with the queen, not one bit, on her fiscal mismanagement.

While we are dealing with a world economic issue, we would have been in a better situation finanically if she wouldn't have bargained away gas, cigarette, and liquor taxes to the Tribes. The same goes with not taxing Tribal casino's. Absolute financial mismanagement.

That was all her.

Indeed KK this is a global situation but you citing a "flight to quality" is temporary at best. Do you really think foreign buyers of short term T-bonds are going to be satisfied with the debt being payed back with more debt? Pray tell, how long do you think this ponzi scheme is going to last?

China has already been absent from some of the latest treasury auctions. As well as Russia and India. Instead they have opted to buy gold reserves. To boot, China is encouraging their citizens to invest their savings in gold. The Fed can't supply demand for T-bonds indefinately and their game is easily spotted if you taken a look at the latest audit figures.

So the dollar temporarily gains againt the Euro. Which ironically is in trouble for many of the same reasons the dollar is in trouble, only much worse. That doesn't elude the fact that America's current debt crisis is unsustainable at it's current pace. So there is a temporary flight to quality in US T-bonds. When Europe straightens out their crisis and that capital flows back into their domestic markets, then what? An enormous spike in interest rates circa ealry 80's and an unmanagable debt load to go with it.

If you're counting on world-wide collapse to rectify the spending habits of our federal government in a "flight to quality" you are sadly mistaken.

After all the Limo Liberals already got thiers so we will just go with a new economic model where the beautiful people split a sliver of the pie up amongst the peasants.

Certainly don't want any peasants starting Co's like Boeing, Microsoft, Google etc.................

I'm sure we will like this new world!

I just hope I don't have to stand in the bread line so long I don't get to the unemployment line in time for my small piece of the pie. If there is any left that is

Funky Chicken spoon KK. Skip the herring.
Let the other guys drag bait. You catch the fish.

Probably. Or Lynnwood.

KK I agree with your post completely other than your assertion that this problem has nothing to do with government.

You seem to be a smart fella. Why you fail to see the moral hazards created by government policy is completely beyond me.

You mention derivitives, or more easily explained as insurance, or a bet if you will. If I am Goldman Sachs and I want to hedge a position I have with say,....GM corporate bonds. I can go to AIG and ask to buy insurance on my position with GM. AIG will charge me a premium for the insurance and I will get paid the full face value of of the bond should GM default. Sounds OK on it's face right? Well here's the kicker. I don't have to own a position in GM corporate bonds to buy the insurance. Here's another even bigger kicker. AIG doens't need to have the money on hand to pay me should GM default. So who's on the hook then? The taxpayer is.

What's this have to do government? That's just the evil free market working the way it's supposed to right? Wrong. Simple fraud laws and the SEC doing their job would have kept this in check. Let us not forget either the repeal of Glass-Steagall and Summers and Geithner advocating successfully for the raising of leverage limits. Companies were allowed to leverage themselves to critical positions at the behest of the federal government. Community Reinvestment Act rules engaged banks in subprime lending as a matter of policy. Banks were required by the government to raise debt to income levels required for loan acceptance. Required to approve applicants with lower credit scores and required to lend on collateral that was located in less than satisfactory regions. Ratings agencies knowingly falsly rated the associated MBS and CDO's, all under the nose of the SEC. Once the game was rigged and secondary markets in place with an endless pipeline of low interest Federal Reserve money to grease the skids it was all over. Smaller more prudent banks were forced to either join in the madness or get run over by the train.

You are right though. We are seeing a complete restructuring of economies world-wide. What this restructuring will lead to is a significant drop in the standard of living for middle class people worldwide, including the US. Third world countries will continue to suffer under IMF/World Bank loans and their austerity measures. First and second world nations will be forced into the same rat trap to get out from under their massive debt obligations. It will be decades until we see 5-7% unemployment again. The jobs lost this time around are gone for good. It's funny you site these things yet still believe that a "flight to quality" is going to save our debt crisis. If America is going to have to restructure and unemployment remain high just exactly do we keep that AAA rating again? Maybe I should ask Mr. Geithner that question in 5-10 years.

All is an example of the abject failure of fractional reserve banking and the Keynesian model. Not a failure of the free market as I would assume you would trumpet. This country has had anything but a free market for the last 100 years. Soft facism or cronyism is more like it.

They run the only business that counts for liberals-the Government! Which also seems to be the only business growing at the moment

BM is on come hell or high winds! Fri and Sun look good but Sat is a wee bit sketchy. Good excuse to fix my wiring issue's and get the 2nd dr installed! So one way or another it will be productive.

Perhaps I misread, or read into it. Regardless, a short term solution to a problem spanning generations is exactly the kind of thinking that contributed to getting us where we are at today. Stabalization at all cost,......if you will. While the reverse may be true tomorrow or 6 months down the road a currency crisis is indeed what we will face long term whether we like it or not.

We are in agreement as to the wholesale ownership of government by corporate interests. You know as well as I do bills are not written by lawmakers. They're written by staffers and lawyers placed in the lawmaker's office by those with the greatest interest and influence. You see, I don't draw a distinction between the two (government and private interest). The revolving door into the US Treasury and Federal Reserve from Wall Street should be evidence enough for anyone that the game is rigged. The clash between the two entities and Dems/Repubs is nothing more than a shell game, made for people with TV's and little ability to think critically. Anywhere you find concentrated power you will find corruption, there's no escaping it. Where I think you and I differ is that I would like to decentralize that power and move it closer to the people as where you may prefer a more centrally planned economy (speculation on my part).

Make no mistake about it, as I was involved directly. Banks were required to make a set volume of loans to low income borrowers on less than satisfactory collateral. This was satisfied by wholesale markets expanding underwriting criteria in regards to debt to income rations, loan to value ratios, lower FICO scores, and substandard collateral. Those were sold to consumers through brokers and retail channels, sent back to wholesale, packed into MBS's and passed along to secondary (usually ending up in the hands of Fannie and Freddie). Hence the birth of the subprime mortgage loan. Something that without the careful and deliberate cooperation of the Federal Reserve providing the money to do it through low interest short term lending facilities, could have never been accomplished. This is the reason people were out buying things that they couldn't afford from an oppressive regime half way across the world while our factories were boarded up at home. There will always be demand, people always want things. It's when the price of money is manipulated by a government controlled entity (really just a private bank) that provides the moral hazard for unknowing folks to get into trouble.

The market should determine interest rates. Not some wizard in an ivory tower with a funny cap. Or at least we should be privy to the decision making process, or committments we may have with foreign central banks, or the names of broker dealers who are funneled billions in tax payer funds through the Plunge Protection Team. Pie in the sky I know. Although people should be more aware of what is really going on.

I'd like to go on, and on I could go. Although I'm being sumoned to wrap it up.

Thanks for the welcome and civilized discussion.

A quick look over the archives does indeed show you to be a bit of an a$$hole. Though you don't have me convinced. In my experience those who show that quality when engaged in debate either don't have supreme confidence in their position, or they are intentionally misleading. It's much easier to bury an opponent when you have them thinking about their mother

Don't be fooled, SW...he really is just an a$$hole.

Fish on...

Todd

I'll disagree on the first line. Totally agree on the second line. (Assholes have to stick together. Wow, that sounded kinda ghey.)

Funding innovation is what got us here. CDS, other deriviatives, etc, were all forms of funding innovation, creating great things out of crap, essentially polishing turds. The biggest issue was the actions of the money center banks who's CEO's had to follow the lead of the other "funding innovators", lest they be canned. The boards of directors of banks behind the curve noticed the profits of the other banks who were using derivatives and other "unique financial instruments" and gave direction to the CEO's and presidents of the other banks and said, "Make money!"

We saw this at our bank and couldn't make sense of it, the option arms primarily. Approve a person at a payment based on a 1.9% rate, give them a negative amortizing loan based on the 1.9% "supposedly fixed rate", yet the underlying loan was actually accruing at a rate of 7.5%. Add in a 110% LTV clause so that when the loan balance reach 110% the payment switched to the payment based on the 7.5% rate. Payments doubled. These were essentially ticking time bombs, where 5% of the original loan balance accrued every year, so $0 down loans, or 3% down loans, were destined to implode 2-3 years down the road.

We (your local community bank or credit union) didn't cause this bull sh!t, but we have certainly taken LOTS of collateral damage. My little bank started scaling back on spec financing in 2006, and stopped it altogether in 2007, except for projects under way. Thankfully. It was unpopular, and certainly not innovative, but it saved our ass. We saw the writing on the wall.

As far as the incentive to lend, that has all but been regulated away. Imagine if you will each bank has a number of buckets. These buckets represent the limit of how much of a percentage of the net worth of a bank can be leveraged towards certain types of loans. We'll work in whole numbers, say $100 million is our net worth, aka total risk based capital. The standard for this risk based capital to be "well capitalized" (aka... having sufficient liquidity to weather loan defaults and a run on the bank) was 10%. Well the FDIC and OCC (office of the comptroller of the currency) changed this measurement to be 12% to be well capitalized. This dried up the ability of banks to employ funds in an "innovative manner". Instead of leaveraging at 10:1, the ratio changed to 8:1, reducing money on the street available to lend by 20% overnight. Add to that the change in the bucket method, where it was okay to use 300-500% of your equity on non-owner occupied loans (hotel/motel, apartments, rental houses, where income from rents repay the note) to a "written in stone" limit of 300%. We were at 374%, or $374 million (MM) in this type of loan when the decree was handed down to us. We had to wait until $74MM paid down vefore we were at the limit. If you had more than 300%, guess what, no lending, period, in that category, no matter what, until you drained the excess out of that bucket. The fawkers hit us at both ends of the spectrum, making many banks pass on completely bankable deals. ( I turned away 3 decent deals this week because of this. ) Obama is a fool because he wants banks to lend money "dammit". The policies put in place by his administration are hampering lending, not helping. He has no clue.

I have no love for that whore, our governor, as she has sold us out, and so have the folks who voted to suspend the initiative. Every chance she got, she sold us out. Unions, tribes, etc. Now it is their chance to correct government, and they choose to not make the hard sacrifice and cut staff within the State machine. Every other business has had to do this, except for one of my clients in the Voc Rehab business (and they are looking for employees if you are a techi). Time for the State to bleed off some excess as well.

Lots more to cover, but I have a some wine calling my name.

Don't get me started on "yo Momma".

A nice Zinfandel. Dark, bitter, and whiney. Just the way I like my women.

Good on you for your financial institution choice. I worked for B of A, formerly Seafirst, for 10 years. Seafirst was great, local focus. B of A, not so. Had an opportunity to ask a question of Ken Lewis, former B of A CEO (who is under investigation for fraud). Asked him about expansion into outlying communities. His response was that "he was taking the bank where there were more people than cows". Only numbers matered to him, not clients. A year later after they had culled all of the people with experience out of the bank, I left on my own terms. Your average banker at B of A now has enough talent to sell you a shirt, and that is about it. Most managers and personal bankers there are from retail businesses, with no credit or lending experience.

Big banks are for sheep. If you have issues with business lending at your CU, I might be able to refer you to a reputable community bank, as most CU's don't know business banking.

I do microloans all the time, usually what I call "Flyers". These are usually small loans of $5-20,000, well collateralized, to folks who have a dream and some means to repay the loans should that dream fail. Lots of dreamers every day without a grip on reality. Those get turned down immediately. Call me the dream killer.

Over the past six years or more voters have turned down every tax cutting initiative while at the same time voting for more taxes such as the 10 cent increase in the gasoline tax and the initiative to reduce class sizes. Add to this all of the local park levys that have passed along with other local intitiatives makes one wonder whether I-960 would even pass today. My guess is it wouldn't, and answers the question I heard Dori Monson pose today, "I can't understand why more people are not up in arms over the suspension of I-960".

I will theorize that since the economy has gone into the toilet more people are either experiencing or know someone who is experiencing what it means to be vulnerable for the first time in their lives. Perhaps people no longer have the stomach to cut more people off of basic services that alow them some level of medical care and a means to find some shelter and something to eat.

I was down at the Legislature last month. It is not lost on any of them the risk they take by suspending I-960 and raising taxes. Acutally for once I applaud some of them for putting their own re-election on the line rather then taking an all cuts approach like last year that left many of the vulnerable out in the cold.

KK, you asshole, of course White Zin is ratshit. That's a given. But you stop dissin' a decent chard, OK?

BTW, very good stuff on this thread, thanks to the asshole, SW, and DF. Do you guys know how good it feels to find intelligent life on this planet?

Sg