Yes, fisherman is singular unlike a 40x larger number which would stand for gill net mortality.

Indeed...which is why we've always got the lion's share, in spite of how much we beotch about gillnets...stay tuned for that to potentially change, in a big way...with allocation shift being the only significant change to the whole regime.

Fish on...

Todd

lets say the release mortality rate for gillnets is 40 percent and the gillnetters can net until they have reached there lets say 5 percent esa take rate and then they are done, now lets say the new method for commercials has a 10 percent release mortality rate and they still have the 5 percent esa take so now they will fish until they reach there 5 percent esa take amount and they are done, what i fail to see is how many esa listed fish they saved with the new lower release mortality rate other than zero, can you explain why the 40 percent release rate is so important and how many esa listed fish would be saved if infact they do go to a new method but still fish until there esa take rate is killed ?

Somebody has to catch them, or collect them. We can't do it (the lions share) with our current allocated impacts. So the potential allocation shift you mention is inevitable (if reducing hatchery spawner's is a goal). Putting these proposed fisheries below other harvesters has the same affect on sport mortality as cutting production does. Coupled with production reductions (what's your function...) it's a double whammy.

I half way wonder if this will be the catalyst to convert all fisheries to more selective methods? Mortality rates for everyone above these fisheries is going to be substantially increased with less hatchery fish in the mix. We're only 50% of the pie, and short of everyone getting on board we are all pissin in the wind. Nothing gets better. You know what they say, sheet rolls down river!

So will someone please remind me what keeps the tribal gill nets above the Bonneville dam?

If selective fishing is assumed to be a successful technique, what's keeps the tribal gillnets up river?

My understanding is they've got 2 bow loading gillnet boats now and have been out on ride alongs in the lower river with non-tribal commercial fisherman.... What are they up to?

Keith

Believe it or not pretty much all fisherys now are being managed selectively, its either C/R or Time and place both fully sanctioned by NMFS.

Here some more numbers to play with in addition to the already 40% mortality rate of gill nets.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2664.2009.01673.x/pdf

A few quotes from the (2009) study

Synthesis and applications. Our analyses indicate that non-retention in gillnet fisheries is an important and under-appreciated consequence of the exploitation of salmon. Stock estimates for exploited populations that do not account for non-retention mortality overestimate the number of reproductively viable fish.

Fungal infection was strongly associated with the severity of gillnet injury. No infection was observed in uninjured fish in 2005. Nearly half (43%) of gillnet-injured fish were infected, with rates of 6%, 76% and100% for fish with minor, moderate and severe injuries respectively.
Fish without fungal infections lived more than 15 times longer(t2,173 = 16Æ95, P < 0Æ001; Fig. 5b) and, among fish observed in-stream, spent more than twice as long in-stream. Similar patterns were noted in 2006 and 2007.

The percentage known alive at the second sampling occasion (v1),includes all fish that survive a minimum of two sampling intervals(3 days) from stream entry. Given this criteria, the majority(51%) of fish with gillnet injuries were predicted to fail to spawn in contrast to 6% of control fish. Nearly all fish (93%) with fungal infection at the time of tagging failed to spawn.

http://csfish.adfg.state.ak.us/mariner/brbcatch/brbsummary.php


Sorry but those two guys are on my list of bucket biologist, the pre season forecast was 40 million sockeye, maybe they need to check the batterys in their calculator's..

Blood letting was also considered cutting edge medical technology in the 1700's by the best and brightest Doctors of the time..

LL, that's the same stuff that will happen to any fish that are handled...including those that are picked out of a purse seine.

Fish on...

Todd

Sorry Todd
I’m going with the specific gillnet study instead of theory since there could be as much difference as the glaring 40% gillnet mortality rate and appox.1% purse seine mortality rates WDFW found last year.

The handle time is longer when untangling from a gillnet, so that's going to result in more fungal infections and greater injuries, but any time fish are handled by anyone or anything, scratches, scrapes, cuts, and the ensuing fungal infections, will happen.

Not a theory, that's how the fish get handling infections.

Fish on...

Todd

So you agree with the gill net study and not with Todds theory.

You surprise me sometimes.

I'm not sure where you're getting an idea like that, LL...you may have noticed above that I said purse seines would have a shorter handling time, and therefore a lower fungal infection rate...but a lower rate and "no infection rate" are two very different things, as I said above, too...and, there has been no study yet, it's going on now, and what they said is that for the experiment to be successful, then the release rate must be much better than from gillnets, which it most assuredly will be.

Fish on...

Todd

i posted that to show what the wdfw is trying to do and thats lower the release mortality rate so they can catch more hatchery fish before they reach there allotted esa take amount.

Louie... Since Bristol Bay is a 100% retention fishery no C/R, the only thing I can figure is they were testing the mortality of the drop out rate. I think NMFS calculates this at about 4% of the total catch and I believe it is accounted for, personally I would have put the mortality rate at 100% for these fish. Still not sure what these guys were trying to prove here but as far as I'm concerned they failed miserably..

That’s what I like about you SBD, you have stated that you are a retired commercial fisherman and you are apparently trying to carrying on the old commercial way from what I’ve read on quite a few of your posts. A little distraction, a few distorted things here, and a little fiction there, and you don’t hide behind a cloak of secrecy like some people we know around here.

I started my dream of being out on the water in the 70’s with a Neah Bay trolling license. The hand writing was already on the wall about declining stocks of fish and seasons to fish for them.

I’d be the first to tell you commercial fishermen are people to. .

But the antiquated, non selective gill nets in the state of WA need to be outlawed like most of the country and I’m pretty sure the fishermen will be able to adjust like I did and maybe try the other methods of commercial fishing when approved.

I’ll look in on this thread or upcoming re runs to see if some new material has emerged.

Other wise Good Bye for now.

I like your style Lucky Louie...........

Personally I think all thats going to be gained by testing these new methods is there going to get some really hard data on how high the mortality rate really is on sport coho..But I'll just stand by and watch this unfold..

i agree but you better be carefull for what you ask for or you just may get it.