#623614 - 09/24/10 11:21 AM
Re: Was George Bush an idiot ?
[Re: fish4brains]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6732
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I remember very well the spotted owl issue.
The vast majority of timber industry jobs were replaced by mechanization. Mills were bypassed because the best of our logs were being sold in raw form to Japan. I remember reading at the time that Japan was burying them in sand to preserve them knowing we would soon run out. Probably planned to sell them back to us at a nice profit. Logging methods were destroying fish runs. The timber industry admits this now. Logging was happening at such a rapid rate that the remaining jobs would have been gone anyway. But the teabagger types needed something other than plain old greed to blame their lot in life on. If you want to get mad at a Dem get mad at Gary Locke for the Forest and Fish compromise. Fifty foot inner zone stream buffers. That's not even twenty yards. Plus, the timber industry having admitted old logging rules were killing salmon used a loophole in Forest and Fish and rushed in to get permits to log vast amounts under the old rules knowing full well salmon would die while publicly tauting how they had changed their ways.
"Btw trees grow back. Once logged they are replanted like any other crop"
I really like that one. Just wait a few hundred years right? Or else cut a giant and harvest a twig.
How about "Logging prevents forest fires"?
_________________________
"You learn more from losing than you do from winning." Lou Pinella
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#623618 - 09/24/10 11:28 AM
Re: Was George Bush an idiot ?
[Re: bankmaggot1]
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2112
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 4898
Loc: in the mass production zone
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Not very well.
"A new report found that 76% of old growth forests had been logged since World War II, and the remainder would largely disappear within fifteen years at current rates." A new report by who? The Sierra Club? Btw trees grow back. Once logged they are replanted like any other crop "Bush later opposed special laws to help those who would lose jobs due to environmental legislation. " At least he didn't take away people's living, then replace them with low paying service jobs. Still I'd like to see what else that was attached the legislation before I pass judgement "Many small mills were forced to lay off workers, whether due to raw log exports, genuine timber shortages, or increased mechanization. " Things were going very well in 92 until... You should also be upset about private timber land being turned into massive housing developments. (weyerhaeuser/quadrant homes). Really where was this happening? Wasn't a problem here,my county looks pretty similar to the way it looked in 1980 - except a lot less mills. Maybe you guys should wring your hands and regulate your own backyards and leave mine alone. We were locked out when they started gating logging roads that WE paid for. You were locked out in most cases because others chose to dump garbage, meth making materials, stole private property, damaged private property, or were presenting a fire hazard. You ever heard of walking or riding a bike around the gates btw? Granted the forest patrol guys might look at you sternly and make you cry but sometimes it's worth the risk. How about I pay for a footpath through your front yard? I'll use it whenever I like, leave behind garbage and dangerous chemicals, vandalize your lawn, steal your garden gnome, and trash your private vehicles in the name of "saving the environment". How long will it be before you cut off all access to your yard? If you fish you should be thankful. I am thankful. Thankful that real men like me cut the trees, built the roads, and maintained the forest so granola munching, starbucks drinking, Seattle metrosexual types like you can enjoy them. no doudt the very best rebuttal to qoutes EVER!!! BM1 you and BigStick know how to bake .
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#623629 - 09/24/10 11:57 AM
Re: Was George Bush an idiot ?
[Re: Brewer]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6732
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I guess brewer wants to add himself to the dim bulb club. I hate doing peoples homework for them, especially those who don't apply themselves, but I will this one time: Not very well.
"A new report found that 76% of old growth forests had been logged since World War II, and the remainder would largely disappear within fifteen years at current rates." A new report by who? The Sierra Club? Nope. The Interagency Scientific Committee (National Park Service, the Forest Service, the FWS, and the BLM) Btw trees grow back. Once logged they are replanted like any other crop We talked about that BS statement. Idiotic. "Bush later opposed special laws to help those who would lose jobs due to environmental legislation. " At least he didn't take away people's living, then replace them with low paying service jobs. Still I'd like to see what else that was attached the legislation before I pass judgement The timber industry itself took away peoples living. I'll let you look it up for yourself. Also look at Healthy Forests Initiative for an example of Timber industry hogwash. "Many small mills were forced to lay off workers, whether due to raw log exports, genuine timber shortages, or increased mechanization. " Things were going very well in 92 until... "During the Great Depression, Aberdeen was hit hard, reducing the number of major saw mills from 37 to 9. Mill owners hired Filipino and Jewish immigrants to keep wages low in order to stay in business. The timber industry continued to boom, but by the late 1970s most of the timber had been logged. Most of the mills were closing down by the 1970s and 1980s. Salmon runs dwindled as spawning grounds were destroyed and rivers filled with silt. The Satsop Nuclear Plant was built in 1978, creating thousands of construction jobs with the promise of permanent employment once the plant was complete. The project was aborted in 1982, doubling the unemployment rate almost overnight. " Don't know your own history huh? You should also be upset about private timber land being turned into massive housing developments. (weyerhaeuser/quadrant homes). Really where was this happening? Wasn't a problem here,my county looks pretty similar to the way it looked in 1980 - except a lot less mills. Maybe you guys should wring your hands and regulate your own backyards and leave mine alone. I already told you where to look for info....Quadrant homes. Weyerhaeuser has been a land developer for several decades now. We were locked out when they started gating logging roads that WE paid for. You were locked out in most cases because others chose to dump garbage, meth making materials, stole private property, damaged private property, or were presenting a fire hazard. You ever heard of walking or riding a bike around the gates btw? Granted the forest patrol guys might look at you sternly and make you cry but sometimes it's worth the risk. All I can say to that one is what an idiot. Get on your trike and go for a ride. How about I pay for a footpath through your front yard? I'll use it whenever I like, leave behind garbage and dangerous chemicals, vandalize your lawn, steal your garden gnome, and trash your private vehicles in the name of "saving the environment". How long will it be before you cut off all access to your yard? So now you think you own the forests? The more you type the lower your IQ appears. If you fish you should be thankful. I am thankful. Thankful that real men like me cut the trees, built the roads, and maintained the forest so granola munching, starbucks drinking, Seattle metrosexual types like you can enjoy them. Don't live in Seattle. Most likely been around in our forests long before you were an egg. In my younger days I was a lineman. In college I was a lineman in the summer and worked for Whatcom county parks gaffing up trees, felling them and turning them into firewood. Maybe Termite would be a more fitting than maggot? no doudt the very best rebuttal to qoutes EVER!!! BM1 you and BigStick know how to bake .
_________________________
"You learn more from losing than you do from winning." Lou Pinella
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#623633 - 09/24/10 12:08 PM
Re: Was George Bush an idiot ?
[Re: stlhead]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/26/06
Posts: 4317
Loc: South Sound
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The Gubmit didn't shaft the Timber Workers, the Timber Industry shafted the Timber Workers and blamed it on Environmental Laws that wouldn't let them clear cut National Parks and Wildlife Refuges, because they were all out of everything else. The timber industry used the loggers, truckers and millers as long as they were needed, and when they ran out of timber, they tossed them aside and left the government holding the bag for retraining and welfare.
Slimy Slade's last big gift to the industry was his "Salvage Rider" that used such loosely worded terminology that it opened up the last reserves of USFS land to Weyerhauser, Simpson, Menasha, and Pope & Talbot.
And one last thing--Trees only take a few decades to grow back, but healthy forests take hundreds of years to grow back. That thing about not seeing the forest for the trees sums up conservative short sightedness and greed. It only takes a matter of years of silt, sunlight and log jams for a salmon run to be completely exterminated in a stream system.
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#623635 - 09/24/10 12:13 PM
Re: Was George Bush an idiot ?
[Re: fish4brains]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3339
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Direct answer: Yes, GW was (and still is) an idiot. Now, pardon me while I jack the thread momentarily. Idiot or no, I don't blame GW personally for the travesties that passed through Congress during his tenure (although he certainly benefitted financially from some of it), much like I don't blame Obama for the recent legislation of which I have not been fond. Yes, the POTUS is a powerful figurehead, but he is still, first and foremost, a figurehead in the end. He is the one that delivers the message to the public, but it is Congress and the Supreme Court that have the final say in 99% of the hand we are dealt every term. With that, I believe we should rate the Legislative and Judicial branches rather than the Executive. On another note, I think this thread points out the ills of the two-party system (as if we needed more evidence on that front). I think if the vast majority of us really looked closely at the constantly moving targets that are our preferred party platforms, we would find that we disagree with at least a few of the stands taken by our chosen parties. Likely, it is our passion for specific issues that leads us to side with one or the other, but in doing so, we all cheat ourselves. Take, for example, our friend Bankmaggot. He apparently has good reason to hate the Democrats, yet, being a working class guy (I'm assuming here - forgive me if I'm wrong), he likely doesn't benefit from the side of the Republican platform that works to make the rich richer. When he goes to the voting booth, he is forced to decide which of his interests is most important and turn his back on many of the others, all of which are likely nearly as important to him. The rest of us, whether we call ourselves Democrats or Republicans, are faced with the same dilemma. Do I know how to fix it? Nah. Not really. By adding a third party, we would only introduce a new set of compromises. Popular vote on all issues seems to be the only way to truly enact the will of the general public, but that is hopelessly unrealistic, for too many reasons. As usual, in the end, a post about politics has amounted to little more than pointless whining.
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#623636 - 09/24/10 12:16 PM
Re: Was George Bush an idiot ?
[Re: ]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6732
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You know what I am talking about AM. Old growth is not renewable in our life time. Try finding the quality of lumber we had 30 - 40 years ago.
_________________________
"You learn more from losing than you do from winning." Lou Pinella
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#623642 - 09/24/10 12:28 PM
Re: Was George Bush an idiot ?
[Re: stlhead]
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Spawner
Registered: 10/26/02
Posts: 908
Loc: Idaho
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You know what I am talking about AM. Old growth is not renewable in our life time. Try finding the quality of lumber we had 30 - 40 years ago. Its not really all that hard to find as most of the Old growth was cut prior to that. Want to know why the lumber is all smaller now, because thats what all of the mills have been optimized to do for tree farm wood. There is still alot of big timber around here in Oregon.. One just has to know where to find it.
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Facts don't care about your feelings..
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#623644 - 09/24/10 12:32 PM
Re: Was George Bush an idiot ?
[Re: willametteriveroutlaw]
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Dah Rivah Stinkah Pink Mastah
Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 6206
Loc: zipper
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In the big picture which some like to conveniently avoid or ignore, there is a huge difference between old growth and second growth, it is much farther reaching than circumference alone.
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... Propping up an obsolete fishing industry at the expense of sound fisheries management is irresponsible. -Sg
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#623651 - 09/24/10 12:52 PM
Re: Was George Bush an idiot ?
[Re: FleaFlickr02]
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April Fool
Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 15727
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I like the mention of the sale of our best timber to Japan. That whole thing is so typical of the short-sightedness of America's never-ending quest for the almighty dollar. If you ever find yourself looking for a reason why a gross injustice was allowed to occur, you need look no further than the fact that somebody influential profitted from it.
More pointless whining. Sorry. You hit the nail on the head.
_________________________
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.
- Albert Einstein.
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#623693 - 09/24/10 03:29 PM
Re: Was George Bush an idiot ?
[Re: Sol Duc]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4498
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
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Sometime back I ran a thread on timber. Going back fishing but as one who retired from 39 years in timber some of these post are somewhat fantasy land.
Export of raw logs began to San Fran after the earthquake way back when. I recent times it was the Columbus day storm that flattened things and the Japs bought it cheap, timber companies then started selling the best to them which killed off most local saw mills. Export rapidly increased the rate of harvest ( acreage ) as the money was in raw logs not a finished product. As to mechanization yes it had impacts. Once a side ( spar tree, crew, ect ) had over 50 men associated with it. Then came trucks, less. Steel towers, less jobs again, on and on. The mechanization was and is driven by timber size primarily, enviromental laws next, and tree farms on 40 year rotations. In other words you build lots of road ( about 6 miles to a section now with new rules ) so you can use cable shovels and shovels themselves to log as the giant Skagit slacklines and GT5 grapples are long gone. It is radio chokers, feller buncher, short yarding for fiber that is not measured in bd feet but Cunits which is squared chunk of wood fiber.
The treefarms, began by Weyco at Montesano with the Clemons farm, are on 40 year rotations ( or less ) so the impact are greater now than in the old days. Lot to this part but the R map stuff is going to get a 5 year extension and they want it to 2030. Oh, R Map are the new rules to save fish.
The logging on Forest Service land began with Gifford Pinchot and was to supply timber for jobs as the privately owned timber holdings were nearly gone. It was intended to be temporary until private holdings matured and never at the level it was done. The owl thing was bs as the argument was the harvest of old growth which had been moved well past where it should.
Put it this way, in my 62 years I have been in a forest only twice. Otherwise I worked in the woods for 40 years on tree farms. They are not forest, not intended to be forest, and will never be forest again. What they are is large scale, long term, commercial agriculture on a 35 to 40 year crop rotation.
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Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in
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#623730 - 09/24/10 05:06 PM
Re: Was George Bush an idiot ?
[Re: Rivrguy]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 03/07/00
Posts: 2955
Loc: Lynnwood, WA
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Bankmaggot is a classic example of exactly what I said in my first post. A "low information" voter who has been duped into voting against his own self-interest by those who count on him being easily manipulated and distracted with hating the "others"... in this case democrats and probably brown people and Muslims too. That's what happens when all you watch is FOX News.
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A day late and a dollar short...
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#623800 - 09/24/10 09:41 PM
Re: Was George Bush an idiot ?
[Re: ]
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ExtenZe Field Tester
Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 7960
Loc: Vancouver, WA
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If Boosh is such an idiot ... how come he served 2 terms, is now retired and livin a good life. While you are all still talking about him? Just sayin' And not only all that, but he's The Decider as well.
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NO STEP ON SNEK
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#623828 - 09/25/10 12:09 AM
Re: Was George Bush an idiot ?
[Re: Direct-Drive]
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Smolt
Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 81
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When Bush left office compared to now:
- The DOW was at about 7,400. Today it's at 10,860.
- Ford stock sold at about $1.80. Today it sold for $12.56
- GM existed. Today GM exists - yes, with a bailout. If Bush were president for another 4 years, it still would have needed a bailout.
- Unemployment was about 7%. Today it's around 10%. If Bush were president for another 4 years would unemployment rates be different? Why?
- America had suffered its worst on-continent attack. Since Bush left office, we have not suffered another attack anywhere close to that one.
- There was no plan for paying for the wars his administration started. Today, there is no plan for paying for the wars his administration started.
- There was no plan for replacing revenue lost when his administration's tax cuts expired. Today, there is no plan for replacing revenue lost when his administration's tax cuts expire.
George Bush was no idiot. He was brilliant.
He was a a good president because...?
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#623833 - 09/25/10 12:46 AM
Re: Was George Bush an idiot ?
[Re: wal1ter]
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April Fool
Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 15727
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He was a a good president because...?
Because he wasn't a socialistic Muzzie Kenyan borned POS ?
_________________________
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.
- Albert Einstein.
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#623834 - 09/25/10 12:57 AM
Re: Was George Bush an idiot ?
[Re: Sol Duc]
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Smolt
Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 81
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Oh. Thanks for the eloquence and reasoning.
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#623838 - 09/25/10 01:06 AM
Re: Was George Bush an idiot ?
[Re: Sol Duc]
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Smolt
Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 81
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He was a a good president because...?
Because he wasn't a socialistic Muzzie Kenyan borned POS ? Anything he created that you can point to as a sustained positive impact? He aint Obama. Duh. He aint Reagan or his father, either. He was a a good president because...?
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#623851 - 09/25/10 01:40 AM
Re: Was George Bush an idiot ?
[Re: wal1ter]
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April Fool
Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 15727
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He was a a good president because...?
Because he wasn't a socialistic Muzzie Kenyan borned POS ? Anything he created that you can point to as a sustained positive impact? He aint Obama. Duh. He aint Reagan or his father, either. He was a a good president because...? Banned Partial Birth Abortion. Signed the LARGEST nuclear arms reduction in world history with Russia. Reduced taxes on dividends and capital gains. Signed two income tax cuts. Increased military pay by more than $1 billion a year. No child left behind.
_________________________
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.
- Albert Einstein.
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#623879 - 09/25/10 12:43 PM
Re: Was George Bush an idiot ?
[Re: Sol Duc]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/26/06
Posts: 4317
Loc: South Sound
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Reduced taxes on dividends and capital gains. Signed two income tax cuts. Increased military pay by more than $1 billion a year. No child left a dime.
Jacking up spending and slashing taxes on his wealthy friends... Economic brilliance that we're feeling the effects of still. I bet you loved paying $5.75 a gallon for gas, too. Does your caregiver have to help you wipe?
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#623904 - 09/25/10 03:29 PM
Re: Was George Bush an idiot ?
[Re: ]
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It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.
Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 16958
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
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Bush isn't an idiot, but he was a stooge in a big game he didn't have the noggin for.
Obama is getting an education in what it's like to be a stooge in a bigger game than he was prepared for right now.
Of course, the voters are the biggest stooges because they insist on buffing the helmets of half the people that have been bending them over for decades.
Be sure to let me know when a Democrat OR Republican rights this ship. Only the American worker/inventor/entrepeneur can right this ship, and only if the elected corporate stooges give them the opportunity to do so.
My bet is on corporate money winning the battle with Joe Sixpack........mostly because Joe Sixpack will back the corporation against himself.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell. I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.
Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames
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