I really don't see the problem with teaching creationism or intelligent design in school. It is just that they should never be taught in a science class or be presented as alternative theories...because they are not based on science. They belong in courses covering the history of religion, anthropology, sociology, mythology, etc.

"So if this is not clear to some, let's just ask Thomas Jefferson what it means.
"
A quote without context is deceiving. Jefferson’s thoughts on this clearly restrict the government not people. Several days after Jefferson penned that letter he attended a church service held in the house chambers. In its day it was the largest attended church in the region. I believe his actions combined with his words speak the truth on the issue.

It should also be noted that the Christian bible calls for a separation of church and state as well. The Christian god wants nothing to do with government and it appears the "Christians" that are pushing for more God in government are not paying attention on Sunday.

Ah, setting up a straw man, not suprising. First, in founding documents the refrence is always "God" or "Creator", never Christ.
God is almost exclusively used by the Christian faith to describe the "Supreme Being". They don't reference Allah, Buddah, etc. as those would be "a God".
I could submit the Decleration of Independence, but were all familiar with that.
Is it coincidence that we as a country have adopted laws that roughly follow the 10 commandments in many ways? How about swearing on bibles, printed money, the pledge of allegiance (yes, it was changed in 1954) etc. There are many examples of "God", not Allah, Buddah, Muhammed or any other figure from any other religion. I will also submit the following:

In 1777. Continental Congress voted to spend $300,000 to purchase bibles which were to be distributed throughout the 13 colonies! And in 1782, the United States Congress declared, “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.

Also, 106 out of the 108 first universities were Christian.



In the Supreme Court's 1892 Holy Trinity Church vs. United States, Justice David Brewer wrote that "this is a Christian nation."

Give it a rest. That ain't what they intended.

You shall have no other gods before me.
Is this a new law? i don't remember that one. Am I breaking it?

You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
How do we know what not to carve? Maybe we need to supreme court on this one?

You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
Oh god...wait...doh! I better hide!

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
Did you work your six days? What about your manservant? Is fishing holy or considered work?

Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
Good advice but not a law the last I checked.

You shall not murder.
More good advice. A lot of politicians are going to hell.

You shall not commit adultery.
takes the fun out of it. In some states this is still illegal. Some not. Nothing about it at the federal level though.

You shall not steal.
A lot of politicians and bankers are going to hell.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Except when bashing RWWJ's. Also not considered work so seven days a week is OK even for your manservant.

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”
Wow. All of Enumclaw are going to hell.

Politics are so fucced up as it is, why one would want to throw in religion into that shitshow is beyond me.

Almost exclusively? Wow. So by you're own observation Christ is never mentioned, but Nature's God (a Deist reference) and Man's Creator (another Deist reference) are mentioned solely in the Declaration of Independence. There's also a mention of Devine Providence, yet another Deist reference. So how then do you make the leap to conclude this nation is founded on Christianity? From Glenn Beck? Oh, wait, he's Mormon. You do know the definition of Christianity, I presume. Is it simply because the founding fathers attended mass? They also brewed their own beer and distilled their own liquor; was this nation founded on alcohol as well? Franklin and others were known womanizers; was this nation founded on debauchery, too?

When it comes to requisite mental furniture, you're virtually a vast empty warehouse.

"Almost exclusively? Wow. So by you're own observation Christ is never mentioned, but Nature's God (a Deist reference) and Man's Creator (another Deist reference) are mentioned solely in the Declaration of Independence. There's also a mention of Devine Providence, yet another Deist reference. So how then do you make the leap to conclude this nation is founded on Christianity?"

Those words were written by Jefferson a known deist who was also known to attend only Christian churches. He is also considered to be one of the most intelligent men who ever lived, well versed in astronomy and holding the largest library in the world on geography and the natural world. I would not attempt to put him in a box as he was a very pragmatic person that defies stereotype.

"They also brewed their own beer and distilled their own liquor; was this nation founded on alcohol as well?"

Pretty much, water was so suspect in those days alcohol was part of the daily ration considered mandatory for members of the military. The Virginia gentry would start drinking shortly after lunch and many would be staggering drunk by dinner, it was considered normal in the day. The views on drinking then are much like they are in modern day Japan. Jefferson had on of the largest and most worldly wine collections know at the time.

"From Glenn Beck? Oh, wait, he's Mormon."

And he wasn't always. Seems contrary to the founding fathers.

BD is GB's manservant.

Just have to say. . .. .WOW .. . this thread is entertaining and educational. . .. .. . .


If I don't beleive in a Hell, how can the Christian whack jobs send me there ? ?? ?? ?

They can't.

If you don't believe in hell why worry about it?

I thought you said you spent some time in the Ranger Bat...

I think the whole problem with BD's understanding of this is that he doesn't know what deism is. Maybe instead of producing material on how and why the founding fathers were deists, I should have previously made a post about what deism is.

So as long as on the seventh day you go to church, pray and do no work you can covet goats the rest of the week as long as they aren't your neighbors? I'm still trying to understand this.

AM I can prove there's an Obama.

Nope, fished the Yakima yesterday taking cool photos of fall colors and a few fish. My comment was directed at yours about if you had a religion.