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#647623 - 12/24/10 02:21 PM Re: will selective com. fishing ruin sportfishing ? [Re: Fast and Furious]
Lucky Louie Offline
Carcass

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 2267
Originally Posted By: Lead Bouncer
Originally Posted By: SBD
No just same old same old, let the tribes do all the heavy lifting. Then sit back and bitch about the way they fish and scheme about ways to catch more of the fish they put into the river. Wanna know what the Columbia would look like without them? Just look at the Sacramento, thats the whitemans river.


Thats just flat paranoid.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZyVZFJGX5g
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#647624 - 12/24/10 02:23 PM Re: will selective com. fishing ruin sportfishing ? [Re: Lucky Louie]
SBD Offline
clown flocker

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 3731
Loc: Water
Hey don't get Boater started on the Heavy Metal stuff!
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#647626 - 12/24/10 02:29 PM Re: will selective com. fishing ruin sportfishing ? [Re: SBD]
Fast and Furious Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 3116
Originally Posted By: SBD
Of course if groups get better at extracting the resourse in the mainstem then it takes away fish in tribs..


Ever heard the slogan "Eat all you want, we'll make more." A worthwhile goal, but you guys would still bitch about paying more for a license. Prove we can catch more fish, before the gov't tries to take away more of the surplus. Its already been reported by one member of the CRAG the cowlitz has been dumping a lot more attraction water into the river than necessary. Slow down the fish and more will be caught.

Its hard to find a post of yours that looks for a way to make something work. Usually, its focus is why the idea won't work.

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#647627 - 12/24/10 02:36 PM Re: will selective com. fishing ruin sportfishing ? [Re: Fast and Furious]
SBD Offline
clown flocker

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 3731
Loc: Water
Actually since the beginings of my posts I suggested they follow Jeff Koenings lead and just use the money to buy up commercial and charter licenses and keep bringing the fish home. For as much crap as he took when he was Director he did a hell of alot more for PNW salmon than anybody else. Wanna know how to cut your impact to zero..............Don't handle anything!
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#647635 - 12/24/10 03:03 PM Re: will selective com. fishing ruin sportfishing ? [Re: SBD]
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 16958
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
You're going to wash Koening's balls now?
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#647636 - 12/24/10 03:08 PM Re: will selective com. fishing ruin sportfishing ? [Re: Dan S.]
SBD Offline
clown flocker

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 3731
Loc: Water
The line to wash Gary's is five blocks long.
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#647637 - 12/24/10 03:09 PM Re: will selective com. fishing ruin sportfishing ? [Re: SBD]
Fast and Furious Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 3116
I remember the article that reported that Jeff turned down the 435K for selective gear testing after he talked to the cowboys. It does not appear they wanted it for a buyout. I cant imagine the gillnetter selling off their CR permits for less than five years of revenue gross revenue. They still have to pay for the cost of the boat and all other fixed costs. Eliminate the revenue stream and they dont break even. I doubt they would make it up in AK. A while back, he testified that fixing culverts in certain areas? of washington would not help.

I dont have a bone to pick with the charter boats.

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#647638 - 12/24/10 03:15 PM Re: will selective com. fishing ruin sportfishing ? [Re: Fast and Furious]
SBD Offline
clown flocker

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 3731
Loc: Water
http://www.calsport.org/9-17-08a.htm


Lower river Sturgeon Meeting I attended it was the Guides wondering if there was disaster money availible..


Edited by SBD (12/24/10 03:23 PM)
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#647644 - 12/24/10 03:30 PM Re: will selective com. fishing ruin sportfishing ? [Re: eyeFISH]
Lucky Louie Offline
Carcass

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 2267
Originally Posted By: eyeFISH
Originally Posted By: Todd

This is not rocket science, but the math that some use to somehow end up at the conclusion that the commercials catch more and so do we are either incredibly ignorant about how LCR seasons work, or are willfully sticking their head in the sand just waiting for another "victory" to put on the list, no matter how un-victorious it turns out to be.


Allow this red-necked Ornamental $25 expert to give it a whirl.

Surplus hatchery spring chinook beyond brood needs can be placed in to 4 piles.

1) Currently the smallest pile is the white gillnet pile. Why? Because ESA caps their wild impact at 1% and their crappy method of "selective" fishing burns those impacts faster than the rec fleet.

2) The next biggest pile of fish is the sport pile. It's 3-4 times bigger than the white gillnetter's pile because our version of "selective" fishing burns thru our 1% impact 3-4 times slower than the other crappy version of "selective" fishing.

3) The next biggest pile is the tribal pile. It's certainly bigger than either of the other two piles, but not quite as big as the other two piles combined. Why? Because even though their crappy version of fishing is totally NON-selective and they burn thru impact as fast as they can catch a wild springer, they are allocated so much more impact that this pile is pretty dam big.

4) But DWARFING all three of those piles is this mountain of hatchery springers that go unharvested. Why? Because the cap on ESA impact does not give any of the three user groups exploiting spring chinook adequate access to those unharvested fish. Collectively, their chosen methods simply burn thru the aggregate allowable impact before they can catch all of those surplus springers that end up in the unharvested pile.

And there's one more kink that needs to be considered. There's a silly little rule that says that the aggregate of Pile 1 and Pile 2 in total CANNOT exceed roughly 1.2 times the size of Pile 3 (assuming a mark rate of 5:1).

Bottom line, these constraints of ESA impact and tribal catch-sharing work in concert to prevent the harvest of spring chinook from being a zero-sum game. Until our native brothers adopt selective methods, Pile 4 will ALWAYS be the biggest pile. And as long as that is the case, the opportunity to maximize the size of Pile 2 to its full potential is ensured..... no if's and's or but's.

So while better and more selective commercial methods will help to increase the size of Pile 1, it does NOTHING to directly affect the size of Pile 2. Those fish would simply be re-allocated from that ginormous reserve in Pile 4.

But let's not forget a very important caveat in re-distributing these piles. The increment by which Pile 1 would be allowed to increase is SEVERELY limited by that silly little rule I mentioned above. And I do mean SEVERELY.

And it shall remain that way until the tribes find a way to burn their impacts a little slower in order to increase the size of Pile 3. I guess that's a remote possibility right now, but I'm not gonna hold my breath waiting. Besides I'll be too busy harvesting my fair share of Pile 2.

So despite all the guys threatened by the spectre of the boogieman, the sport impact allocation and the access it provides to harvesting recreationally-caught springers is more than safe for the forseeable future.

Trust me.... I'm a $25 expert.


So the net savings (excuse the pun) to ESA wild salmon will increase from where it is today with a $25.00 exclamation point!
_________________________
The world will not be destroyed by those that are evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything.- Albert Einstein

No you can’t have my rights---I’m still using them





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#647650 - 12/24/10 03:43 PM Re: will selective com. fishing ruin sportfishing ? [Re: Lucky Louie]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27838
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
They could quadruple the amount of fish sporties are allowed to catch...but if there are only 1/4 the fish swimming by, we'd never even be able to catch as many as we do now, much less more than that...and it wouldn't be because the season is too short, or that we bump into our ESA impact level...it would be because fishing would suck, and bad.

Fish on...

Todd
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#647651 - 12/24/10 03:44 PM Re: will selective com. fishing ruin sportfishing ? [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12616
REPOST:

And there's one more kink that needs to be considered. There's a silly little rule that says that the aggregate of Pile 1 and Pile 2 in total CANNOT exceed roughly 1.2 times the size of Pile 3 (assuming a mark rate of 5:1).

Bottom line, these constraints of ESA impact and tribal catch-sharing work in concert to prevent the harvest of spring chinook from being a zero-sum game. Until our native brothers adopt selective methods, Pile 4 will ALWAYS be the biggest pile. And as long as that is the case, the opportunity to maximize the size of Pile 2 to its full potential is ensured..... no if's and's or but's.

So while better and more selective commercial methods will help to increase the size of Pile 1, it does NOTHING to directly affect the size of Pile 2. Those fish (the extra ones transferred to Pile 1) would simply be re-allocated from that ginormous reserve in Pile 4.

But let's not forget a very important caveat in re-distributing these piles. The increment by which Pile 1 would be allowed to increase is SEVERELY limited by that silly little rule I mentioned above. And I do mean SEVERELY.

(Clarification in yellow type)
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"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


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Long Live the Kings!

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#647652 - 12/24/10 03:48 PM Re: will selective com. fishing ruin sportfishing ? [Re: eyeFISH]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27838
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Again, though...even if you accept your premise, you are talking about opportunity, not fish...full blown seasons with liberal limits don't do jackshit if there aren't hardly any fish to fish over...sportfishing success in the Columbia depends enormously upon high abundance...you might even say it's the most important factor in sportfishing success.

Fish on...

Todd
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#647654 - 12/24/10 03:51 PM Re: will selective com. fishing ruin sportfishing ? [Re: eyeFISH]
SBD Offline
clown flocker

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 3731
Loc: Water
Plus we have the group that gets half going last, which makes a very complicated mess when it's based on projections..
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#647657 - 12/24/10 03:55 PM Re: will selective com. fishing ruin sportfishing ? [Re: SBD]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27838
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
The idea seems to be that between the Cowboys and the Indians there is this wide expanse of water, and tha the Cowboys will have to let a ton of fish go thru it to get to the Indians...and that we sporties will be in between the two getting to fish over the zillions of fish that are being intentionally let by for the benefit of the Indians.

Problem with that is that they are not being let by for our benefit...they will not be "our" fish..."our" fish will, to a large extent, already be in plastic totes.

Fish on...

Todd
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#647666 - 12/24/10 04:06 PM Re: will selective com. fishing ruin sportfishing ? [Re: Doctor Rick]
stlhdr1 Offline
BUCK NASTY!!

Registered: 01/26/00
Posts: 6312
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Originally Posted By: Doctor Rick
Originally Posted By: stlhdr1
Originally Posted By: eyeFISH
4) But DWARFING all three of those piles is this mountain of hatchery springers that go unharvested. Why? Because the cap on ESA impact does not give any of the three user groups exploiting spring chinook adequate access to those unharvested fish. Collectively, their chosen methods simply burn thru the aggregate allowable impact before they can catch all of those surplus springers that end up in the unharvested pile.



Sounds like they should just allow the fish to pass the LCR then Purse Seine the resevoirs above the Bonneville pool.. But to seine fish below Bonneville is obsurd... Sort them when they get close to their home rivers/destinations..


Keith



Did I just hear "Terminal Fisheries?"


No... You heard a theory of something that would allow the Cowlitz, Lewis, Kalama hatchery fish to get back to their home rivers. It's nice having hatchery fish to fish for you know. I mean with the forecast for 2011 how do you suppose fishing would be in these 3 tribs if we had a "selective" commercial fleet in the LCR? That's not even speaking of what they'd take from the Oregon side...

Keith
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#647673 - 12/24/10 04:28 PM Re: will selective com. fishing ruin sportfishing ? [Re: Todd]
Fast and Furious Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 3116
Originally Posted By: Todd
The idea seems to be that between the Cowboys and the Indians there is this wide expanse of water, and tha the Cowboys will have to let a ton of fish go thru it to get to the Indians...and that we sporties will be in between the two getting to fish over the zillions of fish that are being intentionally let by for the benefit of the Indians.

Problem with that is that they are not being let by for our benefit...they will not be "our" fish..."our" fish will, to a large extent, already be in plastic totes.

Fish on...

Todd


Dont forget IDAHO.
Since when did we lose our share? We end up waiting for the fish like that now.
If they are limited to the safe areas, and their pen raised fish populations increase, the effect is a net increase for sports. Safe areas are not part of the tribal split, unless that changed in the last year or two.
Seems like most of your position hangs on the 2%impacts. Doesn't it make sense that 13% up stream is the real goal?

What surprises me most, is with all the proactive work you have done, you show no interest in making this work. Is WSC run like that?

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#647677 - 12/24/10 04:38 PM Re: will selective com. fishing ruin sportfishing ? [Re: Fast and Furious]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27838
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
I have interest in making good ideas work, and I have interest in sending bad ideas to an early grave before they catch hold...

Fish on...

Todd
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Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#647678 - 12/24/10 04:40 PM Re: will selective com. fishing ruin sportfishing ? [Re: Todd]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4497
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
A friend who retired from the agency once tried to get his arms around the abundance = success thing and just could not as to many variables. Weather, seasons, effort just could not be complied.

What he did get a real feel for was this. With salmon there is a direct correlation between the numbers taken by sports and abundance well past just numbers. He put it this way LOTS of fish more the average guy / weekender will have great success. Abundance reduced the top fisherman still get their fish but effort drops off as the average guy & weekender success drops dramatically.

This is the rub on the selective fishery. If commercial impacts are reduced on incidental ( or protected species ) they will simply continue to they hit their impact limit. Removing more fish from the pool will reduce the sports angler success ratio. If the goal is to reduce impacts on other stocks other than the targeted one, it will do that to.

For years the commercials called returning hatchery fish surplus, then the wild / hatchery thing magnified it again. Simple fact that no fish returning to a hatchery is surplus or wasted. IT IS THE SPORTS FISHERS OPORTUNITY. The fish not caught are part of the numbers in the pool that make or break the sports season. H once told me that when sports started harping about " surplus " hatchery fish they screwed themselves to death.

Still going on to as you notice the commercials get their fish to harvest for $ and REMOVAL, but the value of the sports effort is not given high priority as they can not remove as many. Track threads here & down South and watch. How you phrase a position is critical. As sportsman often are fishers & conservationist it creates a verbiage issue. Now commercials are very clear they want to catch every fish they can. In short will a successful selective fishery negatively effect sports fishers ............. yes, yes , yes! Will it help non targeted and protected species ............... yes, yes, yes! It is the price sports will pay for disunity and LACK of greed. Stinks but it will happen.
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#647679 - 12/24/10 04:41 PM Re: will selective com. fishing ruin sportfishing ? [Re: stlhdr1]
Fast and Furious Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 3116



Did I just hear "Terminal Fisheries?" [/quote]

No... You heard a theory of something that would allow the Cowlitz, Lewis, Kalama hatchery fish to get back to their home rivers. It's nice having hatchery fish to fish for you know. I mean with the forecast for 2011 how do you suppose fishing would be in these 3 tribs if we had a "selective" commercial fleet in the LCR? That's not even speaking of what they'd take from the Oregon side...

Keith [/quote]

Are you assuming the tribes will be allowed to catch more beyond their tribal split if they change gear?

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#647696 - 12/24/10 05:27 PM Re: will selective com. fishing ruin sportfishing ? [Re: Fast and Furious]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12616
Originally Posted By: Lead Bouncer


Are you assuming the tribes will be allowed to catch more beyond their tribal split if they change gear?


That's NOT an assumption.... it's a GUARANTEE!

What's so hard to understand about this folks?

The tribes are allocated a 13% impact on ESA-listed springers.

They decide how they will burn it.... exactly the same way we get to decide how to burn the white impact of 2%. For the moment we choose to burn about 1% of our 2% with gillnets. The rest is burned with hook/line.

If and when the tribes decide to go selective, there will be a major transfer of fish from Pile 4 to Pile 3.

Then (and only then) can there be any meaningful transfer of fish from Pile 4 to Pile 1.

Until the tribe goes selective, the number of fish transferred to Pile 1 will be VERY VERY small.

The opportunity loss for those engaged in amassing Pile 2 is inconsequential.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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