#704692 - 09/16/11 09:28 PM
Re: Should society let the uninsured die?
[Re: Salmo g.]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 3116
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AuntyM,
I'm not talking about unlimited health care; we can't afford that. But basic health care for all citizens roughly as I described in my post above would be fitting for a modern affluent civilization. The system we have is more about profit than about a healthy people.
Sg Profit for whom? Book publishers and authors? Medical school professors? Prevailing Wage construction employees? University Presidents? Malpractice insurance companies? Malpractice attorneys? Nurses unions? Or just the doctors and Blue Cross, who doesnt really have any competition in Washington thanks to Debra Senn and others like her.
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#704700 - 09/16/11 09:51 PM
Re: Should society let the uninsured die?
[Re: Dave Vedder]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 3116
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I never could understand why we think education is the government's responsibility but not health care. It isnt. Its the parents responsibility. Someone sold them an idea and then unioniized the teachers. Henry Ford built his own school. Andrew Carnagie helped create the public library system through his donations. Most of the elite in Washington use private schools along with the very rich and some teachers. That probably increased after the state mandated that rich neighborhoods, say like Mercer Island were given the same funding as neighborhoods like Renton, but did nothing about the disparity in property taxes. So much for shoping for the best school. Does it ever make you wonder how the entities most involved with government are the most screwed up? Education and health care.
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#704703 - 09/16/11 10:15 PM
Re: Should society let the uninsured die?
[Re: Fast and Furious]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 03/27/02
Posts: 3188
Loc: U.S. Army
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Does it ever make you wonder how the entities most involved with government are the most screwed up? Yeah, like the military, the police, fire fighters...
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Tent makers for Christie, 2016.
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#704707 - 09/16/11 10:23 PM
Re: Should society let the uninsured die?
[Re: Salmo g.]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 3116
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LB,
Insurance industry, big pharma, maybe hospitals, doctors, attorneys for sure - no fault health care would be a buzzkill for them, probably others I'm not gonna' try to look up. Why do you ask?
Sg Nobody gets to keep all the money. I forgot big pharma who has to spend all the time, and money for testing on a drug that either fails or when approved is then often litigated to death. How much of that price goes to subsidize the prices in Canada and Mexico? Overall, there are so many hands in the pot, its no wonder its expensive. Every pre-existing condition or mandatory coverages that protects the few is paid for by those who dont use it. The doctors and hospitals get the brunt because they charge for all the books, teachers and prevailing wages, professors that raise the cost of medical school. Ironically, I ran into a case similar to the one described. I dont have insurance at work and I choose not to spend 400-600 a month for it. Another guy, who makes less, has two jobs and a fondness for illegal drugs, pulled up his shirt for a variety of people one day and from the looks of it, its a melanoma [sp] and its about the size of a quarter. I told him to get it tested at harborview. He wont even go, cause he thinks he will have to spend money. Is 50 bucks to much? It seems that some folks do not value their own life very much.
Edited by Lead Bouncer (09/16/11 10:58 PM)
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#704728 - 09/16/11 11:48 PM
Re: Should society let the uninsured die?
[Re: ]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 3116
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Oh brother... While RWNJ's ramble on about ponzi schemes, they FAIL to notice that insurance, including health insurance, is one big ponzi scheme. They didnt fail anything. There was no need to declare it a ponzi scheme. Insurance is part of a pay package, take it or leave it. Blame the politicians for making individual health insurance so expensive that people with moderate incomes wont spend the money. Someone sold them an idea Yes, it was called reading, writing and arithmetic. Don't you actually READ and ABSORB history? Most people couldn't afford tutors for their children and weren't educated enough to teach their kids themselves. Life was hard and they didn't have the time a teacher did to dedicating themselves to the job. Even if you didn't read Laura Ingalls Wilder's books, surely you realize most of the TV show was authentically portrayed? It wasn't much different in cities. People didn't HAVE to be sold on the need for education. In order for this nation to prosper the way we did, our collective futures depended upon an educated work force. Read the post again. I never said [censored] about not providing anyone with an education or using tudors. The issue is private vs public and a lot of people have been home schooled and still are. The year is 2011 not 1883 when Wilder began to teach. My issues with public school are the same as those who find it to be a rip off. Teachers are well paid and not allowed to strike in this state, yet graduates lack the ability to read and do math and the dropout rate is horrible. Its an important issue. They dont try to attract people like Bill Gates to teaching. Based on "Waiting for Superman" public schools need a lot of help the unions wont allow. That is for your clarification. I dont give a phk if we agree or not.
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#704751 - 09/17/11 09:33 AM
Re: Should society let the uninsured die?
[Re: Dave Vedder]
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Reverend Tarpones
Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 8379
Loc: West Duvall
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Every pre-existing condition or mandatory coverages that protects the few is paid for by those who dont use it.
Dang, I think he understands how insurance works.
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No huevos no pollo.
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#704752 - 09/17/11 09:35 AM
Re: Should society let the uninsured die?
[Re: Fast and Furious]
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Reverend Tarpones
Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 8379
Loc: West Duvall
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The doctors and hospitals get the brunt because they charge for all the books, teachers and prevailing wages, professors that raise the cost of medical school.
Damn - just damn.
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No huevos no pollo.
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#704844 - 09/18/11 09:58 AM
Re: Should society let the uninsured die?
[Re: ]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 2562
Loc: Edmonds
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The doctors and hospitals get the brunt because they charge for all the books, teachers and prevailing wages, professors that raise the cost of medical school.
Damn - just damn. Lead Eater has a stranglehold on being the top dog ignorant phistphvck, regardless the topic. He is, a metal masticating moron for sure........... Sweet! I've been replaced 
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I swung, therefore, I was
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#704845 - 09/18/11 10:02 AM
Re: Should society let the uninsured die?
[Re: ]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 2562
Loc: Edmonds
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OK, for those of you that feel we should not let the uninsured die, who gets to pay? Simple answer is that I reject the social darwinism of the Ron Paula of this world and have instead always favored a national health insurance system similar to the one enjoyed by our friends and neighbors in Canada. We can do better. But we won't.
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I swung, therefore, I was
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#705199 - 09/20/11 10:29 AM
Re: Should society let the uninsured die?
[Re: ]
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Juvenile at Sea
Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 209
Loc: St. Ignatius, MT
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Alan, how is the Amish example that much different than all of America helping each other on a much larger scale? No difference. Like most distinct groups, you could say they consider themselves 'the people'. Thus, when they have a need, "we, the people", take care of it. There's some idiots on here like stealhead that don't quite get it and think that's some kind of a RWWJ plot. And as far as negotiating rates down, every time I've been to a hospital or Dr., there's a different rate for cash vs. insurance payments. Again, how is that somehow part of a RWWJ plot?
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Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience
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#705203 - 09/20/11 10:46 AM
Re: Should society let the uninsured die?
[Re: AP a.k.a. Kaiser D]
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Juvenile at Sea
Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 209
Loc: St. Ignatius, MT
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The other option is becoming Amish?
The fact that they "negotiate the rates down" is absolutely crazy for one of two reasons (probably both). They are getting cheaper rates and others are then forced to pay the difference and/or they are paying cheaper rates because the insurance industry is such a burden to the system that they are largely responsible for jacking rates.
The Amish example is a Ron Paul blow-off "the church will pay for it" answer though. That system actually DOES NOT work. Charity CAN'T cover it all.
Whoa, this is why I shouldn't be breaking my vow to never argue with idiots. It's not about a church, it's about a group of people who have decided what they will do with their own lives, preferably without interference from government. It's about people taking care of people, and their system actually does work, from what I've seen of it. It's not charity, it's their social and religious responsibility to care for one another. As far as negotiating rates down being 'crazy', are you nuts, or just been smoking too much horse manure? The whole point is that the cost of dealing with insurance creates incentives for medical providers to work around it! Health care reform (what an euphemism) has done nothing to reform health care or contain costs. In fact, health care costs are only going to continue to rise. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Why not try something different?
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Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience
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#705220 - 09/20/11 11:30 AM
Re: Should society let the uninsured die?
[Re: alanmikkelsen]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/26/06
Posts: 4317
Loc: South Sound
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The other option is becoming Amish?
The fact that they "negotiate the rates down" is absolutely crazy for one of two reasons (probably both). They are getting cheaper rates and others are then forced to pay the difference and/or they are paying cheaper rates because the insurance industry is such a burden to the system that they are largely responsible for jacking rates.
The Amish example is a Ron Paul blow-off "the church will pay for it" answer though. That system actually DOES NOT work. Charity CAN'T cover it all.
Whoa, this is why I shouldn't be breaking my vow to never argue with idiots. It's not about a church, it's about a group of people who have decided what they will do with their own lives, preferably without interference from government. It's about people taking care of people, and their system actually does work, from what I've seen of it. It's not charity, it's their social and religious responsibility to care for one another. You ARE an idiot. For some reason the religious right and sheep-fvckers like Alan MiKKKelson think that since Jesus is their golfin' buddy, they get to cherry pick what laws actually apply to them. The upshot is they say retarded schit like: "I live in a bunker and force my wife to wear prairie dresses and only allow my children to recite bible verse for fun. Therefore, I should not have to contribute to social security, the up-keep of the roads I use, or the defense of my nation." And: "Social Security is a Ponzi scheme!" And: "The churches will pay for it." And: "Corporations are people." My grandfather, a Republican and small businessman, had a saying: "You've never been screwed until you've been screwed by a 'good christian.' There's no limit to what they can do to you when God is on their side."
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#705223 - 09/20/11 11:36 AM
Re: Should society let the uninsured die?
[Re: ]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6732
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"No difference. Like most distinct groups, you could say they consider themselves 'the people'. Thus, when they have a need, "we, the people", take care of it. There's some idiots on here like stealhead that don't quite get it and think that's some kind of a RWWJ plot."
Wow. Your question went right over his wittle head.
"And as far as negotiating rates down, every time I've been to a hospital or Dr., there's a different rate for cash vs. insurance payments. Again, how is that somehow part of a RWWJ plot?"
Obviously you have no idea why hospitals have different rates. There's the private insurance rate. There's the rate for the rich who have dough. Then there's the highest rate which is what they charge your govt for providing socialized medicine to thos who do not have insurance or dough.
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"You learn more from losing than you do from winning." Lou Pinella
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#705225 - 09/20/11 11:40 AM
Re: Should society let the uninsured die?
[Re: stlhead]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6732
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"Whoa, this is why I shouldn't be breaking my vow to never argue with idiots."
Arguing with the mirror again? You should negotiate for some pills.
"Health care reform (what an euphemism) has done nothing to reform health care or contain costs. In fact, health care costs are only going to continue to rise."
Yeah since it hasn't kicked in yet. Doh.
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."
See the mirror comment above.
Edited by stlhead (09/20/11 11:41 AM)
_________________________
"You learn more from losing than you do from winning." Lou Pinella
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#705254 - 09/20/11 02:03 PM
Re: Should society let the uninsured die?
[Re: Irie]
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Juvenile at Sea
Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 209
Loc: St. Ignatius, MT
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[quote=alanmikkelsen][quote=AP a.k.a. Kaiser D]The other option is becoming Amish?
The fact that they "negotiate the rates down" is absolutely crazy for one of two reasons (probably both). They are getting cheaper rates and others are then forced to pay the difference and/or they are paying cheaper rates because the insurance industry is such a burden to the system that they are largely responsible for jacking rates.
The Amish example is a Ron Paul blow-off "the church will pay for it" answer though. That system actually DOES NOT work. Charity CAN'T cover it all.
You ARE an idiot.
For some reason the religious right and sheep-fvckers like Alan MiKKKelson think that since Jesus is their golfin' buddy, they get to cherry pick what laws actually apply to them. The upshot is they say retarded schit like:
"I live in a bunker and force my wife to wear prairie dresses and only allow my children to recite bible verse for fun. Therefore, I should not have to contribute to social security, the up-keep of the roads I use, or the defense of my nation."
And:
"Social Security is a Ponzi scheme!"
And:
"The churches will pay for it."
And:
"Corporations are people."
My grandfather, a Republican and small businessman, had a saying:
"You've never been screwed until you've been screwed by a 'good christian.' There's no limit to what they can do to you when God is on their side." Wow, haven't stolen enough head lately? I leave the sheep to folks like you and KKK. I don't golf, not sure whether Jesus does or not. The Amish pay taxes that support roads and pay for national defense. Al Yankovitch has a pretty funny song about Amish, prairie dresses, etc. I sure hope Social Security isn't a ponzi scheme. I'd like to get a bit of my money back. Not sure what the churches will pay for. The Amish pay as individuals. The Amish religion has no centralized authority. Well, I've never shaken hands with a corporation... And your grandfather was right. But, there's plenty of secular idiots, too...
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Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience
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