I made a realistic suggestion. Stay out of casino gambling and all of the bad crap it brings. I see no reason we should feel if you can't beat them then join them.

Revenue that never was isn't really lost is it? Before the Vegas style casinos there were small non tribal card rooms. The big dollars didn't hit until slot machines. If you remember the state was intercepting shipments of slot machines headed for reservations long before Gregoire. And after the tribes were allowed slots we voted and said no to non tribal slots.

Here is a good read as to why the governor you love to hate can't do a damned thing about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Gaming_Regulatory_Act

Gregoire gave away the opportunity t receive revenue from the Tribes time and again on their operations.

You suggestion would accomplish nothing. Mine would make them stand up, and take notice.

The card rooms were essentially done away with by the smoking ban. Sure, there are a few that survived, but for the most part these non-tribal card rooms closed due to the smoking ban, which the Tribes didn't have to abide by.

I know Tribes much better than most folks do. I've done business with them directly, and negotiated with them directly, for 15+ years. Playing soft does nothing.

I'd like to see the state go all in on non tribal gambling.

Awesome idea.

And the budget woes are gone...............

Why should churches be limited to Bingo? The answer to empty state coffers and declining church attendance could be Kitty Glitter, Wolf Run and Coyote Moon. Give the Tribal casinos some competition... maybe they'll improve their food service, increase their payouts, and get some entertainment besides those "Catch a Falling Star" types.

+1,000

It doesn't matter if there is a D, R or I next to the name.....politicians are ALL a bunch of soulless greedy scumbags who will sell their own mother for votes, cash and power.

So the smoking ban killed off the small fry. The smoking ban will still be in place so explain to me how they are going to draw people away from tribal casinos or why tribal casinos should feel threatened.

"Non tribal slots would not "create" new gamblers, it would only take them away from tribal casinos."

HOW?

Somebody is trying to be creative and it isn't me. What will drive existing gamblers away from where they gamble now? Cheaper gambling? Better payouts? What's your plan? You haven't got one. It's a pipe dream.

Convenience. Pretty simple. People need to drive long distances to get to casinos will then have other options closer to home.



Was this a joke or just a poor attempt to make some besides yourself look stupid.




Use it as a bargaining chip to get what we want. This would bring the tribes to the table. The last thing they want is to loose this monopoly. We could talk revenue with those tribes or as I would have liked to see many years ago, work on the fish and game #'s. They would likely take a little less of the resource rather than give up the casino $'s. It is all about money anyway. The way it is now we take it in the back door on each front. About time to push back a little.

I'm far from a staunch moralist, but it's a sad state of affairs indeed when our best available solution to financial problems is to seek new ways to prey on the weaknesses of human nature to squeeze more blood out of a parched turnip.

For all I have seen, gambling (like any other profitable "sin") does far more damage to a society than can ever be justified by whatever revenues it creates. It is a detriment to everyone except the business owners, the politicians they pay to make their rape of society legal, the employees of gambling establishments (to a far lesser extent than the two prior groups), and the tiny contingent of individuals who manage to beat the odds and profit from gambling.

I know, I know, nobody is forcing people to go to tribal casinos and gamble, and nobody would force people to gamble at non-tribal gaming sites either. By the same token, nobody is forcing people to drink, smoke, (list your favorite sins here). The trouble is that the purveyors of these products realize all too well how easy it is to sway most people to the dark side of a freewill decision.

Of course, our state of affairs is what it is, and I recognize that nobody is supporting non-tribal gaming in the name of morality. At present, it might be a good revenue booster, but I think it will do more damage than good in the long run.

More and more, I think the State should get its revenue from an income tax and get away from the tax system that is predicated on consumer spending. For reasons I don't understand, I don't find a lot of citizens who agree with me on that. I suspect one reason the government doesn't agree with that is that it would make it much more difficult for them to cater to special interests in situations where doing so requires manipulation of revenue sources to make concessions appear possible within the State's budget. I also suppose that income taxes wouldn't allow the government to collect revenue from the unemployed and otherwise impoverished the way sales taxes and service fees do.

First of all, my post was not based on what I believe to be reality. I was mainly expressing my concern over the long term effects of our society's ongoing proliferation of ways to profit from humanity's inherent weaknesses. That said, you may be right, but I'll take a shot at explaining myself.

Why do you suppose you are inundated, everywhere you go and even at home, with advertisements for products and services? I believe it's because businesses figured out a long time ago that marketing is an investment that generally pays off. I'm no MBA, but I understand one of the principles of marketing to be that increased availability of a product in the marketplace will increase sales of that product. The power of the "impulse buy" is a significant driver in the way things are marketed. Just look at what you see around you while you wait in line to check out at the grocery store: a bunch of stuff that you pass by in the aisles while gathering the items on your shopping list (assuming you were frugal enough to make a shopping list, without which you would likely make many more impulse buys) but are likely to appeal to our tendency to indulge ourselves with treats. It's right there in front of you, so unless you don't like it or consciously decide to avoid it, you are likely to throw it on the checkstand. The same should apply to gambling. As docspud pointed out, the convenience of having more locations where gambling is available will convince more people that they ought to go ahead and give it a try. It's a lot like trying recreational drugs. Most of those people will not gamble any more than they play the lottery, for example, but by the numbers, some will become habitual gamblers, more of which are not conducive to a productive, responsible society.

There is also a certain component of the non-tribal population that outright refuses to set foot in a tribal casino yet travels to Reno or Las Vegas on a regular basis to get a gambling fix. With non-tribal options available locally, many of those folks would seem likely to fall prey to the gambling bug with dangerous frequency as well.

Right or wrong, I think widespread gambling, while it has great potential to produce revenues, would prove detrimental to society in the long run.

FleaFlicker I can't see where an income tax would be better. In a down turned economy such as we have now people are losing jobs and seeing a reduction in income. The state would still lose its income no matter which way we were taxed. I'm not hearing that things are better in income tax states now. I think most Washingtonians feel as I do in that if we tried to go to an income tax we would never get rid of the sales tax. We would just be getting hosed from two different directions.

"Convenience. Pretty simple. People need to drive long distances to get to casinos will then have other options closer to home. "

So you advocate a casino in every neighborhood? I'm sure most of us here would be nimby's.

"Was this a joke or just a poor attempt to make some besides yourself look stupid. "

It was meant to draw you out and make you look stupid. Success.

"Use it as a bargaining chip to get what we want."

I haven't heard a single thing that would scare the tribes one bit.

"All your questions have already been answered several times and you just refuse to accept them."

You think pipe dreams are answers. They must be magic slot machines. Build it and they will come.

"FleaFlicker I can't see where an income tax would be better. "

It's a lot harder to avoid paying an income tax than a sales tax. Right now those who live near our borders avoid a large amount of sales tax by shopping across the border.

Disagree. I see very little upside. It will not fix our budget woes nor put much if any pressure on the tribes, has a huge potential down side in regards to the negatives of gambling and organized crime and expands further our need for a larger gaming commission to monitor the whole mess and keep out organized crime. Plus there's just nothing we can offer that is better than the tribes even down to the freedom to smoke. However, I would be willing to experiment having Harstine Island as a big casino destination.

Once again, donno, my post was not based entirely on how I perceive reality, but more on the way I wish things could be. I agree that states with income taxes probably aren't faring markedly better right now. I suspect that at least some of that may be due to increased unemployment and decreasing wages affecting those states the same way they are affecting ours. It seems a bad economy is bad for everyone.

I understand that an income tax is not any better for our individual bottom lines than sales taxes, etc. It's just a different way of getting what should be a similar amount of money from us. The main reason I favor an income tax over our current system is that it makes the amount of revenue the State will have for budgeting much more predictable, leaving less margin for revenue forecasting error, which I believe has contributed significantly to our state's budget crisis. It also should give the citizens a solid number (that can't be "adjusted") to look at when comparing what should be available to what is being budgeted, thereby making the budgeting process more accountable and transparent.

Finally, just to reiterate, the ONLY scenario in which I favor a state income tax is one in which all sales taxes are repealed. Whether or not that's likely to happen is a different matter, and your pessimism to that end may be spot on. I am starting to think our Legislature favors the taxes on consumer spending and fees because they make it easier to manipulate the budget in their favor based on proposals to increase revenues. It's easy to create revenue on paper, just like it's easy to create paper fish.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Certainly, there is no shortage of opportunity in our state at present, but creating more opportunity will almost certainly make gambling more convenient for more people.



I am aware that we have reached a point of no return on tribal gambling. Indeed, that horse seems to have left the barn. I don't believe, however, that means we need to engage the tribes in a battle to see who can do the most damage to non-tribal society. They are kicking our a$$es on that front right now, and I would personally like to keep it that way. I find the notion that we might as well jump on the bandwagon and trade more of whatever is left of our decency for a temporary revenue fix more than a bit troubling.



Again, we'll have to agree to disagree, except that I will admit to not having a solid example to prove my point. I'm sure it's out there, but I don't have the time or will to research it.

I know a couple of those as well. Admittedly, this was not one of my better arguing points.

I wouldn't set foot in a tribal casino to gamble.

I also wouldn't set foot in a non-tribal casino, anywhere, including Reno, Atlantic City, or Vegas.

Gambling in casinos might be one of the most stupid things...ever.

Fish on...

Todd

Agree.....and the dumb fuks that play the state Lottery.

A wise man once told me that the best way to understand the lottery is to consider that your odds of winning are almost exactly the same if you play or not.