It affects me some. I live in Bellevue right between the two (520/90) and I drive the 545 (Bear Creek P&R in Redmond down 5th ave in Downtown and back) so I expect to see a lot more people.

At least once a month I expect I will drive it in my personal vehicle to see the Dr or the PD folks. On my way home I will take 90. In the Spring/Summer I expect to have the Sea Kitten moored in Edmonds and expect to make 3 - 5 trips up there. I will be in a hurry to get there and not so much on the way home, so 520 there and 90 home.

How does the toll affect you? How long until tolling comes your way?

Have a nice day.

Tolling is the wave of the future. People want roads and bridges and don't want taxes. That leave tolls. It seems like a pretty fair way to pay for something - by charging those who us it.

Lots of toll roads in Florida. Plenty in Oklahoma too.

You might find this interesting.

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/trn_tol_roa_mil-transportation-toll-road-mileage

Tolls suck.
You had better have a tub of quarters if you ever drive the urban NE US expressways.
It's a PITA.

Hopefully they don't get a foothold here.
Better to pay up front.

Mass Pike...."when it's paid for we'll drop the tolls"
Not.

Tolls are here to stay and with electronics will be charged on all roads. Ever wonder why the feds do not make a all out push for non oil transport? How do you collect a gas tax on non gas cars? Tolls! Get used to it as despite all the PC BS user fees are the way the future works.

The crime of it all is after all the bluster about taxes and tolls and political infighting, our political system continues to drift towards a super in-efficient method of paying for things -- metered user fees.

You know on reason why the internet is so cheap effective? It's largely unmetered. Which ENCOURAGES usage, which further drives the pricing down.

Metering is a MASSIVE cost center -- and then you add bill printing/presentment, bill collections, audits, the inevitable court case over some mis-calculated bill, and you have a super *inefficient* way of paying for things. BUT --- it cannot be assailed along the currently most effective method of sowing political discord -- convincing people they should never, ever pay for anything that benefits another person.

So as a result, we are trending towards an increasingly EXPENSIVE method of funding all manner of things, with far more infrastructure/oversight to manage all this muddle. But at least those who never drive that particular stretch of road won't be able to bitch about it. Of course we all pay 2x as much for all the stuff we *do* use, but that's the cross we're willing to bear I guess.

FWIW -- I do recognize the other extreme is likely to fail as well, but my sense is we're FAR too willing to accept user fees for things (even to advocate them) versus doing the hard work to keep things trim and efficient.

Exactly IR .. . . ..I am against giving those greedy irresponsible ratbastards any more of my money until they can prove they are trustworthy and effecient with what they already have .. .. .

Some want to make tolls permanent which is akin to red light and speed cameras.

Younger son works for Verizon in the South Bay area. Uses the San Mateo Bridge so much he has a card that allows driving thru w/o a
stop. He gets a monthly bill for his lack of trouble at the Kiosk.
Just another way to get in your pocket.

There is an opening for you peckerhead.

I was struck by the announcement of how much the 520 toll is, something like $3.50 each way if you have a pass and $5.00 if the camera has to read your license plate. I understand that inflation has driven up the cost of everything, but you oldsters will recall that when 520 was built the toll was $0.25 and included the cost of DOT toll booths on the bridge. Not only that, the bridge was paid for something like 10 or more years earlier than predicted due to higher than estimated usage. And then the toll ended, and the toll booths were removed. I wouldn't expect that the new bridge can be built for anywhere the price of the old one, but a way more than 10 X cost increase must be intended to pay for more than just a bridge.

Sg

PS: Since I don't have any reason to use 520 regularly, I won't buy a pass, and I'll probably just avoid the bridge because $5.00 seems unreasonably high. Hell even the new Narrows bridge is only $3.50 without a pass, and they only charge going one way.

"There is an opening for your peckerhead."

Sorry I'm not gay. You'll have to find someone else. And pull your pants up for gods sake.

$4 on the narrows now but yes it is only heading into Tacoma. No charge leaving.

I kinda figure it should go the other way as who the hell wants to go to tacoma. Much nicer heading outbound toward the OP. That I feel better about paying for.

Like IR said it's not just paying for the bridge it's paying for the administration of the tolls. we've created another money pit. And once the bridge(s) are paid for we'll need to either make the tolls permanent or create new tolls because govt will have become addicted to the revenue and it will "cost jobs" to stop tolls.

Metered user fees will always cost more to administer than it would cost to pay for the service with taxes...you can't have it both ways, complain about taxes to pay for it, get your wish of no taxes to pay for it, and then complain about the user fee.

If you use it a lot, you're paying a lot more in the long run than you would have if you agreed to pay for it out of taxes instead of user fees.

If you never use it, you aren't paying for it now.

I plan on using it "almost never"...and can mostly take I-90 just as easily as 520.

Fish on...

Todd

Sorry, I don't use the term 'gay' as the modern vernacular requires.
Cousin's wife is named Gay.
In your case pecker head was not a referral to your possible sexual
preferences. Just a descriptive noun name.
I guess I could have used nipple noggin.
btw If you are going to quote me, at least get it right.

You think a lot about dicks, peckers, nipples and now your cousins gay wife when you aren't whining about name calling.

I don't plan on using 520 at all but it's not stopping there. Hot lanes are in the works. Entire roads will be tolled. Some day entire cities will probably be tolled. It'll cost $20 to enter Seattle. What we most likely won't see is tolls east of the mountains where all roads are paid for by those who live west of the mountains.

How do I work that ignore button again ? ? ?

Every time someone says we continually vote for no new taxes or lower taxes, I think they don't have a grasp of how we actually vote. We continually vote yes on school levies, we vote yes to keep medic 1, ocassionally we send a message NO vote.

People are tired of a straight 5-4 party line vote by Seattle City Council.

When the voters initially voted yes for Sound Transit it was sold as XXXXX billions from Seattle to the U District. It turned out to be a line from Seattle to almost the airport. Our traffic issues aren't from downtown to the airport yet we spent billions on a line that doesn't help commuters on the I-5 corridor.

Even when we voted for a line from Seattle to the U District, the EIS said it would remove ZERO cars from the highways. It would only switch people from buses to rail. Tell me how that helps anyone...?

We have one of the highest fuel taxes in the country which means the people who drive the most contribute the most.

There is already tolls on all carpool lanes, it's called tickets.

Thank God we live here because we are all germ free. Only state in the country that can claim it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoHUr26CTQo

Got to pay for it somehow as work is not free. My youngest is building some of the 520 toons as an apprentice carpenter at 18. He's thinking about moving out as its a long commute to Tacoma which eats up gas and pays tolls via Good to Go pass. Tough work out in the elements but he's adjusted now. I've also read that some of the toons will be built in Aberdeen which should help the economy in Grays Harbor.

Well, here in Idaho we have a low gas tax, no tolls, and no highway projects in the pipeline, and IDOT will only be doing routine maintenance. This fall IDOT announced it would not be plowing I-90 at night; except in the immediate area of Coeur D'Alene. Have not seen how that works out yet because it has been dry as a bone here for over a month. I do use Washington and Oregon roads to get to Boise because the main North South road here is a two lane country bumpkin highway, for the most part. But, we are running a surplus in the state budget for 2011.

Not laughing at you all, but just sayin; you get what you are willing to pay for.

You also have about seven miles of highway in Idaho, and we have about 250,000 miles just in the Greater Seattle Metropolitan area.

Just sayin'.

It's like gloating about how great the river management is in Nevada...when they have, what?...two rivers?

Fish on...

Todd

520 has been pretty empty this week and last. I *think* I read some where that DOT estimated 10% or maybe 20% of traffic would stay off roads or use I90.... My morning and evening commutes have been as short as possible.

Seems like more motorists are avoiding 520 than previously thought. Just like Salmo G's post, a lower toll = more motorists, the standard price versus consumer willingness to pay curve we all learned in Econ....Seems like it may take longer to get this project paid off than previously thought if the road continues to be pretty empty...I sure know if tolls were only a buck or two I wouldn't care but for $3.50 (I have a pass) I think twice about crossing it...

I wasn't gloating; just trying to say that if you want good roads then be prepared to pay for them. Lived and worked in the Seattle area for well over 32 years. IMHO, the tolls should never have come off 520 in the first place and I-90 should have been tolled when the new bridge was built. Everything has an expiration date so why not get ahead of the curve rather than wait for the bridge to start falling apart.

The problem is that everyone wants the "perceived value" of socialism...i.e., get the roads without paying for them themselves...but are unwilling to do what is required to get that "perception", which is, of course...paying for them via taxes.

Fish on...

Todd

Todd, you are so correct. I work on the Eastside so this has been a big topic of conversation. My point is simple. The Feds allow a mileage deduction of 50.5 cents per mile for gas and maintenance. If another route adds 7 or more miles to your trip, then you would be money ahead (in the long run) to pay the toll. If the longer route adds more time (how can it not?), this becomes a no-brainer.

Most people are not allowed to deduct mileage. the deduction is another example of welfare that the majority pays to the minority.

Commuting expenses. You cannot deduct the costs of taking a bus, trolley, subway, or taxi, or of driving a car between your home and your main or regular place of work. These costs are personal commuting expenses. You cannot deduct commuting expenses no matter how far your home is from your regular place of work. You cannot deduct commuting expenses even if you work during the commuting trip.

Stlhead, you are correct. I was only using the Feds amount as a comparison and a basis for computing the cost of driving extra miles.

I think you may have missed the point. It s not what you can claim but what the true cost of driving is. One can argue forever about what that cost is, but when you consider depreciation, tire wear, oil changes, gas and other variables it probably costs somewhere in the range of 30-60 cents per mile to drive a car. Therefore if your car costs 40 cents per mile to drive, it does not make much sense to spend an extra $3.00 in driving expenses and another 30 minutes of your time to avoid a $3.50 toll.

BTW anyone can claim milage expense for businees driving.

So after 2 days, vehicle traffic at the time I drive Westbound is very light. So far, the 545 I drive has not been completely full. Close, but I haven't had to pass anyone up. Eastbound it seems that there are a few more people on the bus, but that is a pretty regular crowd heading for Overlake(microsoft). Traffic is thin. ( shortly after 10am)

So from my point of view, I am liking the toll.

WDOT predicted a 40-45% dropoff in 520 traffic initially as tolls were introduced. They expect that as drivers evaluate their commute alternatives that about half of them will return to 520, according to a radio news report.

The toll is a good idea in regards to commuters. For years when thinking about methods to reduce traffic congestion and improve traffic flow I thought the state should impose a "dumb sh!t" tax on commuters who choose to live on one side of the lake and work on the other side. That makes no sense unless a person's life goals includes spending an extra 40 minutes a day sitting in stop and go traffic. The toll kinda' serves as that tax. It should be added to the I-90 bridge as well.

Sg

Thing about tolls, is they rarely go away... Even after the funds have been recouped for the project.

"Toll or not, if they don't learn how to spend our money wisely, they'll never get the populace to trust them."

+100

Most people who work in the downtown core of either Bellevue or Seattle cannot afford to live there yet we want to punish them further? I'm against the whole punishment attitude. If we want to go there then punish the businesses. After all they are the reason everyone is commuting.

Stlhead,

If they're driving into Seattle, they're coming from Bellevue. If they're driving to Bellevue, they're coming from Seattle. And they can't afford to live either where they're going or where they're coming from?

Sg

Quite the contradiction within the same paragraph.

I could care less about the tolls, I try to stay as far away from King County as possible. I wish more people that I don't want to be around would move there. There should be a large toll for anyone trying to leave King County.

you ignant...

I'm saying most people can't afford a million dollar condo downtown so they are forced to commute somewhere and somehow. It'd be nice to have the 1%'ers pitch in a bit for the infrastucture too.

"I could care less about the tolls"

You should start caring because it's supposeldy the way of the future. And if you live rural I'd be even more concerned because there's no way y'all pay for your own roads. It might end up costing you a ten spot to leave your driveway.

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/564...015Sept2010.pdf

The larger counties lose money on State, Federal and local transportation dollars to pay for the other counties.
Time to add tolls by county.

Not everyone heading west on 520 in the mornings is coming from Bellevue...in fact, I'd wager that the majority of them are not coming from Bellevue, much less the expensive areas in downtown Bellevue.

Unlike the original tolls from the 70's on 520 this one is not tied directly to any 520 work...when the 30 and 40 year bonds are paid off, this toll will not go away, unlike the old one did.

Fish on...

Todd

My food doesn't come from rural areas...it comes from Safeway.

Fish on...

Todd

It's a FASCINATING chart, KK. It's SO amazing to see how inversely correlated it is to political affiliation. It's a constant refrain that the GOP has convinced many folks to vote against their own self interest -- it appears that the Dems/King County have done so as well...

My guess is that everyone likes to feel like they're heroic in one way or another... Either by saving others (Dems) or by being able to subsist ENTIRELY without the support of anyone else (GOP). Both are lies.

If you like that one, IR, look up the national one...it is eerily similar...all those "anti-Socialists" are sucking at the teat of the rest of us.

It's kinda like the TeaBagger signs saying "No Government Health Care" on one side, and "Keep Your Hands off my Medicare!!" on the other side...proper spelling added by me.

Fish on...

Todd

It's a small scale "tax the rich" scenario it seems. How about that?

Let's see what the math says. I'll make it simple because the Republicans generally have problems with math.

1. 5 out of 9 majority Dem counties are net-takers - 55.56%
2. 27 out of 28 majority Republican counties are net-takers - 96.43%
3. The remaining 2 counties that are swing counties split evenly on taking/giving.
4. With King County being the most populous county in the State (by far), there is no question that in the aggregrate, the majority Dem counties are net-givers while the majority Republican counties are net-takers.

A look at KKs map is interesting. Who pays, who doesn't. I wonder..if the trucks that bring edibles into the payers realm stopped rolling, how many days before serious food and raw goods shortages developed?
Since so many like to live in an ant heap or just close to their work an obvious explanation exists for the population densities differential.
Maybe those monies sent to the counties are justified on a symbiotic
basis.

misery loves company

Illyrian,

Spoken like a true "taker".... You're justifying suckling off the state-welfare teat because you provide SOME value. Well, you get paid for your goods at the value set by your beloved free market. So if you can't afford to fix your own roads and run your own schools with that $$, then maybe you should either raise your prices... If your prices went up, we "king county" folks might just buy more local produce, which suddenly is more price competitive without all your subsidized infrastructure.

So you go on being proud of your rugged independence, when in fact your entire way of life exists only because you take 35c of every tax dollar I pay to fund it.

B

"if the trucks that bring edibles into the payers realm stopped rolling"

Which trucks? The ones from Mexico, the port, the train depot, other states? I'm betting Spokane imports more than it exports from/to King County so you are sucking off the teet all the way around.

IR, are you sure Lilly has "some value"? i don't see it. Maybe sweeping floors or something?

Thread gets stranger all the time. KK's chart is correct but it and many others do not identify why the other counties are so called takers. The biggest cost for our county is legal ( providing defense ) and most are not locals. Second item is social services and we got a ton of folks on them and most are not from this area. As housing cost & rent increases in the urban area's those with out funds end up in the rural counties. In other words we got a ton of welfare people not from around here for the lower cost of living and they draw on the services provided by the state. Seems to just work that way.

I gotta admit you are entertaining KK. Your I got a dream
was a laugh too.

Glad to help you to do something productive Koo Koo. One does not want vegetate from inactivity!

I wonder how much the gov is spending on the damn TV ads for the Good to Go sticker. What's with that?!

A good businessman like you shouldn't be surprised, this plan has been around for a couple of years.

BWP, if you have employees crossing that much, you should buy the pass. You'll save money, the bill will be tied to a particular vehicle, and payment is automatic. Seems like an easy solution to me.

It's been years since I've crossed on 520, so I don't have any real say in this, but just for entertainment purposes......
I'm not at all sure that I agree with the whole toll aspect of things....the tolls are on STATE hiways......STATE. That alone says to me that the STATE benifits, not solely those who directly use it.....such as commercial traffic that moves services and commodities to many places. So in that spirit of equity, I would like to see some sort of split responsibility. Perhaps 25% of the cost born by the STATE through a specific tax, and the remainder born by direct users.

As far as the chart goes......pthhhhh. All you have to be aware of is where the income stream comes from.....try industry for a start, and overall assessed value per county. I'm thinking a toll at the border of all the Red counties might be in order.....residents exempt, of course.

It is SR 520.

BWP - if you are a business owner, you must be the thickest brick in the shed. If the extra mileage by going over I-90 is more than 7, you are losing money by taking it. That doesn't account for the extra time either. If I am your customer and you are charging travel time, I would have some serious discussions with you about your shortsighted (and expensive) attitude.

It certainly has made my life a lot easier. Merging into traffic with that 60 footer used to give me nightmares. Now there is plenty of room to get that lumbering beast over.

The bus I drive has been full with some people standing, but I haven't had to pass anyone by. $2.50 for a ride to town and you don't have to worry about the toll, driving or parking. Seems like the way to go if you are headed downtown.

It is very nice to be able to go the speed limit out there. It's 50 by the way. Please slow down. And remember YEILD TO BUS . It's the law!

If your margins are that tight you outta looks at a different "small bidness" Just saying.

It's kind of funny to listen to rural and urban residents talk like they could get by without the other.

You can't.

Carry on.

True story!