Best lock'er up Penny....

What is CCA's opinion on this?

Really, Parker?

My degree says "Bachelor of Science in Marine Biology, Minor in Chemistry"...and I've actually worked as a biologist before going back to school, too...not that it matters at all.

What matters is that the science says broodstock programs don't work, and everyone who participates in one acknowledges that science, yet somehow thinks "their program" actually does work, though it's never actually been monitored, so there's no way to tell other than past studies.

Tell me where you get your opinion that Snider is that "one" that works in spite of none of the others working?

I know you didn't get it from any scientific study or finding.

Fish on...

Todd

It's "shown", Chuck, by the fact that every other program that has monitored has failed to do anything other than make hatchery fish for harvest.

Having it at all, no matter where it is, is a bad idea unless they actually monitor it to find out what effect it is having on the native stock.

Fish on...

Todd

Chuck S. you can't move it to the Sky or any other of the "S" rivers in Puget Sound. Where are you going to get your native brood?? They're listed....you can't touch 'em.

Intergrated broodstock programs can/should only be considered on systems with heathy stocks.

Beez

Aha! Because hatchery fish cannot have any affect other than negative on wild fish, the hatchery program that is the "best fit" is either isolated from wild populations or is an integrated program where the hatchery fish are significantly outnumbered by the wild fish population so that the negative affects remain negligible.

By this standard, the Snider Ck program may fit, but due to lack of monitoring it is impossible to know.

Sg

They also brood stock skok fish and white/stuck river fish.

I think I remember the brood stock program on the green starting in 2009ish.

Has there been any posted results of this particular program?

I'll go out on a limb and say that all this discussion is pretty much academic...

The Snider program is being moved from the Sol Duc because the HSRG requires that systems have Wild Steelhead Management Zones where there are no hatchery fish at all...and the Duc is the easiest spot to set up a WSMZ on the Quillayute system because of the tons of hatchery fish put in the Bogachiel and Calawah.

The program will move to the Bogachiel, and we all know, no matter what the rhetoric is saying now, that there will be no meaningful monitoring of it there, either.

I will continue to state the obvious...any program that's been measured fails to do anything except to turn wild fish into hatchery fish for harvest...and those who like broodstock programs will proclaim it a "success" within 18 months of starting it.

Nothing will change.

Fish on...

Todd

Chuck, they have fish that do that...they're called "Chambers Creek hatchery fish"...fish that are specifically bred to return early.

Fish on...

Todd

Read slower, Chuck.

That's my fear Chuck - that these "new" hatchery fish will not come back at the same time as the early run Sol Duc fish.

I want them to come back at the same time as the wild Sol Duc fish. Something needs to get caught up in the tribal nets down in the Qyuill during this time. I'd sure rather they be hatchery fish rather than early Sol Duc wild fish.

Honestly, once the Snider program was shut down, everyone should have just walked away. The whole "moving the broodstocking program" to the Bogi and/or Calawah is stupid and more of the "status quo" on how fish are "recovered" on the OP.

What will control when the fish return is what fish they use for broodstock. Use January fish, you will get January fish back...same as they did on the Duc.

Fish on...

Todd

Is there a healthy run of January fish on the Bogi?

If so, why wouldn't you want to protect it, rather than taint it with hatchery fish?

If not, why would you want to taint it with hatchery fish?

The circle of doom never ends!

PS. If there's ever a time for fisherman who care about wild steelhed to step up and say "no", now is the time. This new broodstock program proposed on either the Bogi and Calawah has to go. Just say NO!

You already know my thoughts on it....there shouldn't be wild broodstock programs on any rivers.

The "works" part is where the supporters think the programs makes more wild fish than the wild fish would if left alone...and that's the part that the science conclusively says "doesn't work"...they're going to tell you that the point is to make the early run on the Bogie better, not worse.

Fish on...

Todd

I don't know, Steve...it's a pretty fantastic river.

We can't have it both ways...it can't be "such a few fish are used so it has very small effects on the wild run" and also have it "they have saved the early run by having a large effect on the wild run"...

Opinions are great...but it would be a lot better if there was actual monitoring of the program so we would all know what it is and is not doing, and then base our decisions on that.

Fish on...

Todd

While not "scientific" in the traditional sense of the word, thoughts and experiences from folks like Bob and others that spend day in and day out interacting with these fish and have been doing so for many years have to count for something.

In the absence of a formal study, their general impressions and comments on trends based on tangible experience is still real information. It is fair to say that none of us are completely without bias, but I trust Bob's breakdown of the big picture and don't he would screw facts for the sake of advancing a personal/professional agenda.

I am interested in Stam's question as well. The info we do have indicates that these early Duc fish are doing well, probably improving if not maintaining at decent levels compared to elsewhere. This is the typically negative effects of a broodstock/hatchery program. Why is that.

The Snider program appears to increase the return of Snider hatchery fish during the brood time period that Snider brood are harvested. It would be beneficial to have data indicating the number of unmarked wild steelhead returning during the Snider brood harvest time period has increased significantly as a direct result of the Snider broodstock program. Those beneficial data are missing either because the desired effect hasn't occurred, or because of the lack of monitoring that would inform us if the intended effect has occurred.

Anecdotal information has been presented saying that January returns are up.

Returns of what? Snider hatchery fish? Or unmarked wild fish?

Up compared to what? In order to ascertain that the intended effect happened, we'd have to know what the average January return pre-Snider was, and what the average return post-Snider is.

Then there is the whole realm of unintended consequences. So far all data clearly indicate that hatchery fish spawning with wild fish results in diminished productivity of those wild fish. How many Snider fish spawn in the natural environment in HxH and HxW matings, and what effect does that have on total smolt productivity and subsequent adult return productivity?

To the extent that any Hx * matings occur, overall system productivity is reduced, but we don't have any data to inform us how much of a problem this might be.

Sg

Is that really gospel, or just most likely scenario based on studies of other broodstock programs?

Also, I'm interested in people's perspectives on how/whether the presence of returning Snider fish could help/harm wild fish by increasing/diminishing pressure.

In other words, is there any data or anecdotal perceptions regarding whether having Snider fish hurts wild fish by increasing fishing pressure, or helps wild fish my making it less likely that the harvested fish are wild?

Re: SalmoG. General opinion seems to be that unmarked wild returns are steady or on an up trend based on past encounter rates. Granted that needs some quantifying and is anecdotal at best.

If we could set aside the obvious lack of hard data and for a moment say that this is indeed the case, wild fish in this time period are more plentiful now than a few years ago in spite of the circumstances, would anyone venture a guess as to how that is possible.

Snider fish reproducing with wild fish = the appearance of more early "wild" fish coming back seems to be an easy target? How would one study that particular issue? Would some sort of DNA sampling be able to delineate hatchery fish from, H+W from W+W fish?