Looks like a plug.

Blasphemy and sacrilege!!!

Thanks Coley, I might take you up on that.

Yeah KK, at least not a bobber and split shot. Which takes us just about full circle again. I think my first line of departure in this thread was the reference to the Prom Dress flashabou pattern, being intended to simulate a plug, which led me to remark, why not just use a plug? The use of 2-handed rods has done a lot to blur the distinction between fly and conventional gear because they can effectively cast larger, bulkier, and heavier flies than most guys were willing to use with single hand rods. So now we have guys throwing what have become known as "half chickens," larger than Intruders at 6 - 8" or more.

BTW, when Paker wrote a page back about delivering a quote with a Thurston Howell accent (I think he was referring to Gilligan's Island? I'm not sure), that was the wrong character. The better reference is ol' H2O, Hale Harrington Orviston from "The River Why." It's a movie now, but came out as a novel in 1983 and is genuinely hilarious. Gus' dad is a level 5 or better ascot-wearing, tweed coat, cigar and Scotch high falutin' fly fishing magazine writer, and lets everyone know it. Gus' mom was a country girl raised on the banks of Orygun's Deschutes River and fishes worms. So Gus grows up in the tradition of eternal family squabbles over fishing methods, but he attains a synergistic fishing prowess greater than his mom and dad combined. If you haven't, read it. You'll bust a gut. It's way funnier than this thread.

Sg

I think of the H2O and Ma juxtaposition quite often when we get into these diatribes. The River Why is one of the best books ever written. The movie, unfortunately, sucked butt. No real surprise.

Why not use a plug? Because then it wouldn't be fly fishing...duh.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzing!!

Stam,

". . . the self appointed keepers of the true faith . . ."

And this would be you, right? I mean, you've fly fished all of what, once? Yet here you are, monitoring the goings on of fly fishing, contributing to our high brow, high falutin' fly fishing discussions, in a strictly and consistently negative manner. And my list is my list. Yours is yours and is in no way a rebuttal, and calling it that sounds defensive. What's to defend? There's nothing to rebutt. Your list, should you compile one, is irrelevant to me.

Dan,

No ziinnnnngggg noticed or felt. My sensibilities must be numb. That, or Stam's ascot has choked off my air supply and thence my nerves.

And to think tying a Skunk in Intruder style caused all this! It could only be better if we were all juiced up.

Sg

Who says we're not?

Fish on...

Todd

Ya' got a point Todd. But I'm not, altho I favor the notion of keeping a fifth in the lower right hand desk drawer. However management would frown on it.

That's why some of us prefer to be self-managed

One last point...folks can take it how they please, and apply it to themselves or others as much or little as they would like.

In some situations people talk as if they are speaking well known and altogether obvious and simple facts...the problem is that they have accepted them as obvious and simple facts, and they are not. This in turn leads to them sounding like pompous ascot wearers when they truly do not feel that they bear even the slightest resemblance to one.

If we were talking about actual and measurable facts, then that's one thing...but in this case we are not, not by a long, long length.

It's not a perfect fit, but it would be like telling a long time racist that grew up in Alabama that he's being a racist...I have no doubt that he truly disagrees with that, and that he also truly thinks that what he is saying is not just true, but accepted Gospel, and that said racist is very offended by being called a racist.

Being an elitist is not something you try to do...it's something you are without trying, like Mitt Romney saying that the few hundred thousand he makes from speaking engagements is just peanuts...because to him, not only is it peanuts, but he has no idea that the other 99.9% of the nation does not consider it peanuts.

He truly thinks it is peanuts.

Fish on...

Todd

P.S. I think I'll rate this thread as a "Five Star"...it's got it all.

How well do those fancy feathers hold scent?

Depends...we talkin' Polo, or Chanel?

Fish on...

Todd

Uh oh, the subject of politics has been breached.

I am out.

Following up Todd's thought. Salmo, in his introspective and thoughtful response a while back now, made a comment about not being aware of all of his biases. None of us are, which is one of the reasons I enjoy these types of discussions. Quite often they have encourage if not forced me to look at my thoughts, actions, and attitudes and consider the reasons for their existence. Through a few of these types exchanges I feel like I have definitely had my mind opened and considered some things that I otherwise would not have. At the very least hopefully we can gain more of a mutual understanding of our fellow fishers even if we might don't agree with or understand their perspective.

...all of that, plus it is fun to call bullshite and point out the ascotholes

Believe me............it was a solid Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzing.

Your Spidey senses must be dulled by the presence of bait thugs or something.

Todd,

I've assumed that your "last point" has been in active play since the first comeback regarding my questioning tying the Prom Dress to simulate a plug. This is a discussion of far more opinions than facts. I think sharing our opinions helps all of us broaden our respective perspectives, for those who are open to it. I'm having fun; I presume all participants are, or why else bother to post? I have no illusions about my posts here being gospel or anything close to it. This isn't like the main board where I do my best to share objective information on fish management, biology, ecology, etc. My pompous arrogant H2O tone is part of the act, and it usually works pretty good. I get more bites in here than I have fishing this year. I 'spose that makes me a troll.

AP,

Feathers hold scent well, but the problem is that then they smoosh down and have little or no action. So ya' makes yer choice, go for the visual or the smell. Ya' get one, but not both.

Coley,

Aye that. That's my primary reason for contributing what I have here. However I confess that as soon as Stam reveals his button being pushed I just can't resist probing a bit to see what pushes draw the most reaction. That's my mean streak, but my defense is the devil makes me do it.

OK Stam,

If my posts are nauseous I figure you wouldn't bother reading, let alone responding. And I apologize to the extent I've been pushing your bait button. But you have an eloquence of your own that makes it too fun to pass up.

As for my list, it isn't skewed. It's my list, and it's based on my experience and observation. I'm not putting anybody down with it. That's a value and judgement you're assigning to it, which you're free to do, but that's not my doing. As evidence, I never mentioned any of the drift fishing pioneers who you name, so clearly this is a put down that you're inventing. I don't judge people by how they choose to fish. If I did, I wouldn't spend the time I do on this forum. Instead I've found this to be a valuable place that transcends fishing methods and a lot more.

BTW, the first recorded sport fishing for steelhead in the U.S. was fly fishing, not drift fishing. Not trying to poke you in the eye with a stick, just sharing the history. Fly fishing tackle existed before spinning and casting reels, so it's natural and logical that the first attempts to catch steelhead on hook and line was with fly gear - greenheart and bamboo rods, those reels made in England I (humorously) referred to on page 1 or 2, silk lines and gut leaders. The first drift fishing I know of actually used fly rods and reels (and I kinda' thought maybe Todd was referring to that a couple pages back) linen line, gut leaders and worms or roe for bait. The method was known as strip casting, and was popular on the NF Stilly and Sky pre and post WWII.

As for your plug pulling example, we both know that is the exception to the rule and would be a difficult trick for anyone to pull off. And that example hardly exemplifies the far more typical plug pulling alongside the high bank side of the slow hole for 200 yards where the boatman is still doing all the work, all the fishing, and the front seaters are boat ballast in terms of who is fishing. And if people choose to do that as a conscious choice or because they really have a limited understanding of steelheading, I don't care. I'm not judging those foks, but I am judging the method in terms of what it means to me and how I would stack it up with alternative methods. I'm drawing a distinction between fishing tackle and methods and judging people. It looks like you make no such distinction and that it's all the same to you.

The pinnacle of the sport is whatever you decide it is for you, and I for me. While I might rate an upstream drag free dead drifting dry fly as the pinnacle of my steelheading, I don't for general trout fishing. That's how I've caught most of my stream trout, and so I've been practicing nymphing for trout, partly to broaden my fishing horizon and also because I know full well that trout eat nymphs for about 90% of their diet, not dry flies. And because nymphing, at least at the start, turns out to be more difficult than fishing dries.

And:
". . . I just don't appreciate the attitude.. and that is what I enjoy monitoring..." Man, that's just sick, or perverse, or something. And of course there's attitude. This is the fly fishing forum, and I've made a heck of an effort to exude the attitude. That you find it offensive and a put down to you and people who you hold in high esteem is funny, as in funny odd to me, since you invented the ascot fly label, and this forum is replete with all kinds of comments about fairy wands, Spey pride, and elite fly fags, and you've been azzcrack deep in most of that. Are you suggesting I should take some offense at that? I've interpreted that attitude is part and parcel of the schtick here. I could be wrong.

Dan,

I don't think I have Spidey senses, but whatever senses they are have surely been numbed by bait thuggery. But I'm off the clock now and intend to dull them with something else.

Sg

I am too lazy/smart to bother reading this entire thread. But do want to note that with hard work, perseverance and innate ability one can achieve proficiency that exceeds their peers in any method and that the level of difficulty in achieving extraordinary proficiency at any given method can be extreme. Yet climbing that pinnacle does not appeal to everyone, nor should it. (I think in some cases the quest for perfection takes all the enjoyment from the activity.) Many just want to have a good time on the water.

I will be the first to admit the float and jig fishing is relatively easy. Hell, that's why I like it. I like catching fish. But try keeping up with Nick Amato when you are both fishing floats and I'm pretty sure he will school ya. I see even less skill required to huck a fly out there and let it swing across the river.
Bill Herzog wrote what many consider to be the quintessential book on drift fishing but thinks mastering spoon fishing is more difficult. In his opinion swinging a fly is the least demanding way to fish. Note least demanding and most productive are not the same thing by a dan site.

I enjoy it all including fly fishing. It seems to me that whoever has the most fun wins. If you can have more fun than I do and avoid thinking you are somehow superior because of the method you choose you are a real winner.

^This is where the thread turned. If this was all said t.i.c. then it definitely went over my head. If you don't see judgement going on then, well, as Stam said...

I'd say this is a misconception that is worth pointing out. Perhaps I'm just out-of-the-loop but I just don't see people "looking down on flyfishermen". Non-flyfishermen simply don't hang out all night curing eggs and talking trash about flyfishermen. I guess I just don't think the line exists like a lot of people do?

LMAO (lauging my ascot off). This thread is great!

Funny you mention that book Salmo. I'm working my way through it now. It is a good read. This thread is a good read too. Some things you just can't make up.

So true Sam. I can hardly wait for the movie version of this thread!