you are tipping over

Well past tipped.

If our gas prices weren't massively subsidized by our own tax dollars we'd be paying $8 a gallon.

Fish on...

Todd

P.S. Not just tax dollars, but American lives and American credibility, too.

Without the infusion of grant money and tax credits, the debt service would have been more than the cash flow from operations could service. The principal amount of the debt and debt service would have been much higher than the project could sustain. Basically, without a huge free down payment on the project there would be no ability for the project to produce excess cash flow that goes to CCAP.

Subsidies for a product, system, or technology that has proved viable withouth the subsidy does not bother me. See: any real bank and who they loan to. The green subsidies for new projects that don't pencil out financially (see Dogfish's posts) do. What happens is someone see's that there is a "green" subsidy available for X,Y,Z type projects. So they create a bunch of paperwork, studies, grant applications, meet with their representative and etc to get their hands on the money. They do this knowing all along the whole system they have created cannot stand on its own financially.

Subsidies from the government are not a problem for me. Hell, my family is farmers, but subsidies for make believe projects just to say we are doing something "green" are a problem. Do not mistake subsidy for a project with research. Research provides data that is of some value for the greater good, while subsidizing a make believe project only makes a few very rich at the expense of everyone else. No one should be in favor of these ideas.

Now Salmo G> Would you prefer the $8.00 a gallon gas to make alternative energy pencil in closer to fossil fuels? Or leave the protection racket in the ME?

Your lame response has nothing, even less than nothing to do with the graph showing how much federal land energy production has dropped and two lame responses, do not make it any less wrong and thats saying somethin.

As for your response, lets see the math. Our war ships are probably out there for more than oil.
In addition, our # 1 source of oil is Canada and # 2 is Mexico. ME crude is a bit farther down the line. The amount of gasoline and taxes per gallon needed to pay for naval security is probably minor. Producing more oil here, would lower it further, because supply coming here would be sold to someone else and we would not require as much naval support.

Oil jobs are some of the highest pay and a small tax would go a long way to paying off the debt.

RR,

Not that I would appreciate $8/gal gas, I would take that over the ME oil industry protection racket. I'm totally opposed to that. That's quite a stretch as the definition of "national defense" goes.

Thanks for clarifying the diff between subsidizing a financially failing project and research.

Sg

Good answer. I wonder how many Americans would agree (if it was that simple)?

I think most Americans think gas should still be $0.30 a gallon. I also think most Americans prefer denial and delusion and American Idol over math, science, and the history of western civilization.

So long as its brown folks (you know, all those unGodly muslims) who are dying, or someone else's sons and daughters, then cheap gas is worth it.

If right wingers really want everyone to have "skin in the game", then screw making poor people pay income taxes...make rich people send their kids to the ME to "fight for the freedom to have cheap gas".

Fish on...

Todd

I felt roughly the same way during Vietnam Todd. It never works out that way. I think Biden was the only member of Congress who had a kid in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Atypical.

Well, let's be honest...having cheap gas and helping to solve the poverty problem by giving poor kids the chance to have a great job and travel overseas (even if a few tens of thousands end up dead, or worse), is a win-win proposition.

So long as you're not one of the poor kids. Or their parents. Or their kids.

Fish on...

Todd

That appears to be the way the 1/10th of 1%ers view the situation.

No source...just a guess on what it would cost if we figured in what we're paying for the wars in the ME and the warships in the Persian Gulf, and the planes on those carriers, and the pilots, and the seamen, and the training, and the bases and camps that support them.

All for gasoline.

It's probably a lot, lot, lot more than $8/gallon if you figured in all the treasure and lives we spend to keep it at $4.

Fish on...

Todd

Pentagon uses a massive % of our national consumption of petrol resources. Be sure and add that to the rest of the human and material resource costs.

Hank,

Some of us draw a distinction between national interest and national defense. Of course, those who believe that the business of America is business often come to a different conclusion.

I don't mean to promote isolationism, but if one condones "protecting the national interest", which includes global business, then there is no limit on what and where the US gov't. may interfere. I favor limits on gov't. intervention beyond our borders. Actually, within our borders too, for that matter.

Sg

SG finally said something I agree with after all these years.

The problem is that folks should just be honest about what they are supporting, and why.

Pretending that we are fostering "freedom" in the ME is just a flatout lie...or, if you think it's not a lie, then it's flatout foolish.

Again, as I said above, if folks really internalized what our gasoline costs us, then they might actually accept $8/gallon gas, since I suspect we're all individually paying far more than that as it is, we just pay it in taxes that fund our military-industrial comples, whose main job seems to be to keep gas prices lower.

That doesn't even begin to describe what soldiers and their family members are paying to make sure we get that cheap gas.

We have the most expensive gas in the world, because besides the dollars we pay, we pay for it in the form of wars, support for despots (Saudi Arabia and Egypt highest on the list, and far from the only ones), and the very lives of our soldiers.

Pretending that we are supporting "freedom" and that we already pay too much for gas are fantasies that will have to end sooner or later.

Fish on...

Todd

The draft is gone. You are rarely honest. Its beyond you, in your delusional state of mind. Stereotypical mind set that only poor kids volunteer for the military. Worse yet is your attitude that people on this site, do not care about those kids.

Dirt bag.

It has nothing to do with the draft, shitferbrains.

Look at the average income of our soldiers...they aren't Mitt's kids. If there were a draft and Mitt's kids were being drafted we wouldn't be exporting "freedom" at the rate we have been.

Hank, not only do I not like it, but I don't pretend that it's "freedom" we're peddling when we go around blowing up countries. Those who pretend it is are as fullofshit as FnF.

Fish on...

Todd

Not sure of the demographic of the mod military however everyone I know currently serving come from wealthy back grounds. The only thing poor about them is they are young enough to be fooled by fake patriots. They are willing to take a fighting stance because their parents raised them to be good Americans which means not questioning the system. Anyone that joined the military today thinking they were keeping America safe has been fooled. God bless them for trying to do the right thing but they are living and in some cases dying a big fat lie. They are protecting the wealth of people. Our country is only in danger of not being able to buy as much shat made in China from Walmart and driving there cheaper. My nephew is in Helmand province right now. His parents are Fox News watching Rush Limbaugh loving ditto heads that believe their son is in danger to protect them from the al queder storming the beaches of lake Washington in Bellevue. They also believe we are making Afghanistan a better place for non combatants. Since when is that the constitutional duty of or military? I think we should have a strong military but they should be parked at our borders and only be used to defend the US. If chevron needs security they can hire it.