#792848 - 10/17/12 11:24 PM
Re: Election Fraud
[Re: Todd]
|
Poon it! Poon it! Poon it!
Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 1714
Loc: Yarrow Point
|
I'm against fraudulent voting. No question.
I'm also against disenfranchisement of voters, for any reason. No question about that either.
There's clearly a relationship between them---the more stringently we try to defeat fraudulent voting--the more people we disenfranchise... Let's for the sake of argument assume a fraudulent vote is roughly worth a disenfranchised vote. Now it's just a math problem...
If you defeat MORE fraud than the votes you disenfranchise--you get my support. At present the rules we're discussing seem like that's not true -- we're disenfranchising MORE people than the fraud we're preventing.
Those of you in support of these voter ID laws... Catchy phrases not-withstanding ... do you think a fraudulent vote prevented is worth MORE than a disenfranchised vote? 2x as much? 3x as much? What's your math on this?
B
_________________________
The charm of fishing is that it is the pursuit of what is elusive but attainable, a perpetual series of occasions for hope. -John Buchan
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#792856 - 10/17/12 11:51 PM
Re: Election Fraud
[Re: IrishRogue]
|
Dick Nipples
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27838
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
|
The math is simple, Brian...it's minorities and poor folks who will have the hardest time satisfying the voter ID laws, and they tend to vote Democratic...so yes, it's worth disenfranchising several thousand to prevent the mythical voter fraud.
If it were rich white guys being disenfranchised this would never be an issue.
Fish on...
Todd
_________________________
Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#792862 - 10/18/12 12:09 AM
Re: Election Fraud
[Re: ]
|
River Nutrients
Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 3116
|
Black, mostly, and in the case of Florida, have names somewhat similar to a convict (even if they themselves have never even had a parking ticket).
That's all it took to have tens of thousands of them scrubbed from the rolls, in an election year where several hundred votes in FL got GWB appointed President.
Fish on...
Todd Toff the ever apathetic one, the one that can understand the plight of the black man while he is casting a spey rod in northern bc. grow up mama's boy. That is kinda harsh. Progressives are only required to talk about the plight of others before and after vacation.
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#792865 - 10/18/12 12:18 AM
Re: Election Fraud
[Re: Fast and Furious]
|
Dick Nipples
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27838
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
|
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/16...;comm_ref=falseSome more "patriots"* looking to "protect the vote". Wonder which party the perps support? Fish on... Todd * By "patriots", I really mean fuckin assholes who should, like a few of the dimwits here, take their idea of Democracy and move to North Korea where it will fit in better.
_________________________
Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#792874 - 10/18/12 12:54 AM
Re: Election Fraud
[Re: ]
|
Dick Nipples
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27838
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
|
They're not interested in fraud, or Democracy...they're interested in getting their guy in, at all costs...even if the cost is dishonesty and anti-Democracy.
Fish on...
Todd
_________________________
Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#792882 - 10/18/12 01:16 AM
Re: Election Fraud
[Re: Todd]
|
River Nutrients
Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 3116
|
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/16...;comm_ref=falseSome more "patriots"* looking to "protect the vote". Wonder which party the perps support? Fish on... Todd * By "patriots", I really mean fuckin assholes who should, like a few of the dimwits here, take their idea of Democracy and move to North Korea where it will fit in better. "Someone". Code for republican or maybe some moveon.org patriot or Occupiers, who wants to set up an October surprise. Lets google how many Teaparty members are in those states, then just narrow it down from there. Lets ask a great mind, like Ted Kaczynski.
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#792919 - 10/18/12 09:54 AM
Re: Election Fraud
[Re: ]
|
River Nutrients
Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 4000
Loc: Ahhhhh, damn dog!
|
Who do you eliminate with ID requirements? The elderly. Come on Hank - doesn't anyone old break a hip anymore? ID = old peoples vote - yeah they don't have smart phones in their pockets or purses. Grow a brain. BULL SCHITT! The elderly are either ; Rich and don't receive any government benefits, so you don't care if they vote or not... but they still have ID so they can prove who they are to anyone handling their money or... Receiving SS or SSI and Medicare, in which case, they MUST provide ID at the time they applied for benefits. They also MUST provide ID to cash checks whether at a bank or a check cashing service. They have to have ID to pay for anything with a check too... If you are an adult citizen in the US, you have ID of some sort. You have the ability to obtain a copy of your birth certificate and you have a SS#. If you have no ID to get a copy of either, affadavits from relatives are permitted. A drivers license or state ID is obtainable with those items. A passport also works, as well as military ID. For social security recipients; We can accept only certain documents as proof of identity. An acceptable document must be current (not expired) and show your name, identifying information (date of birth or age) and preferably a recent photograph. A birth certificate is not a form of identification. As proof of identity, Social Security must see one of the following primary evidence documents: U.S. driver's license U.S. State-issued non-driver identification card U.S. passport If you do not have one of the above specific documents or you cannot get a replacement for one of them within 10 days, we will ask to see another document, such as your: Employee identification card/badge Health insurance card or Medicaid card (not a Medicare card) U.S. military identification U.S. Government identification card Certificate of Naturalization Certificate of U.S. Citizenship U.S. Indian Tribal card (Social Security has to approve as an acceptable ID) Certified copy of a medical record School identity card, certified record, or transcript (current year) Life insurance policy There is no BS excuse for any these ridiculous assertions of disenfranchisement. Getting to a place to obtain an ID is also not impossible or even difficult. It takes anywhere from one day, to no more than 90 days to get this done. Anyone who doesn't have ID is either lying, not legally entitled to vote or not mentally competent enough to vote. Why now the intense assertion that voters have two forms of ID? Why was this not brought up two years ago? Why not four twelve years ago? I am all for having voters ID'd but this sure smacks of party politics when these things are brought up right at the goal line. If this is not party politics then let's do it right and create national guidelines and set a precedent that can be followed and adhered to with enough time BEFORE an election, not some ad-hock mess and right before a national election. Fishy Fishy
_________________________
NRA Life member
The idea of a middle class life is slowly drifting away as each and every day we realize that our nation is becoming more of a corporatacracy.
I think name-calling is the right way to handle this one/Dan S
We're here from the WDFW and we're here to help--Uhh Ohh!
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#792949 - 10/18/12 11:00 AM
Re: Election Fraud
[Re: ]
|
Dick Nipples
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27838
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
|
It has nothing to do with how easy it is to get one.
It has to do with purporting to need one in order to solve a problem that doesn't exist, and the pushers of these laws know that they are pretending to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
Add one check box on a list somewhere to get a gun and the right wing fruitcakes will scream bloody murder about their rights...make it harder to vote...to vote, in the United States of America...and those same right wing nuts think it's just fine.
Why? Well...because they're right wing nuts.
Fish on...
Todd
P.S. And liars.
_________________________
Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#792979 - 10/18/12 12:57 PM
Re: Election Fraud
[Re: ]
|
Poon it! Poon it! Poon it!
Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 1714
Loc: Yarrow Point
|
Is ANYONE in favor of this Voter ID stuff willing to say the ratio they believe is right? What ratio would you support of:
Fraudulent votes prevented vs. Disenfranchised voters as a result of increased scrutiny?
I'm 1:1. If you can convince me you're preventing more fraud than your disenfranchising, you got me.
What is your ratio?
_________________________
The charm of fishing is that it is the pursuit of what is elusive but attainable, a perpetual series of occasions for hope. -John Buchan
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#792987 - 10/18/12 01:16 PM
Re: Election Fraud
[Re: ]
|
Hippie
Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 4450
Loc: B'ham
|
Toff the ever apathetic one, the one that can understand the plight of the black man while he is casting a spey rod in northern bc. grow up mama's boy. I always love seeing someone trying to use "big words" and missing the mark. I'm guessing you meant "empathetic", brah.
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#793016 - 10/18/12 02:43 PM
Re: Election Fraud
[Re: Somethingsmellsf]
|
River Nutrients
Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 3116
|
Its been an issue for a long time. Chicago is a joke. Nixon chose not to contest a couple states when he lost to kennedy. Todd is just wrong on the subject. John Fund has written books on voter fraud. You dont get published on that subject, if its not happening. Did you forget about all the people from Acorn who went to jail? http://www.amazon.com/Stealing-Elections-Voter-Threatens-Democracy/dp/1594032246You can highlite the book and read a partial contents. Including contents and various subjects in the book online. Quite a bit.
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#793019 - 10/18/12 02:54 PM
Re: Election Fraud
[Re: AP a.k.a. Kaiser D]
|
fish_brah
Unregistered
|
Toff the ever apathetic one, the one that can understand the plight of the black man while he is casting a spey rod in northern bc. grow up mama's boy. I always love seeing someone trying to use "big words" and missing the mark. I'm guessing you meant "empathetic", brah. You're right the word should have been empathetic. Typing on the phone can be hard (auto correction) but thanks for your concern bro......
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#793020 - 10/18/12 02:55 PM
Re: Election Fraud
[Re: Fast and Furious]
|
River Nutrients
Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 3359
Loc: Island Time
|
The only bullsh.it term thrown around on this thread that DOES NOT exist is disenfranchised.
Disenfranchised means "lazy, welfare POS". To think there are not mechanisms in place to allow those that WANT to vote is utter bullch.it.
So to answer IR's question I'm also a 1:1 and since "disenfranchised" does NOT exist and voter fraud does there is in fact a problem.
I see some fairly poor and lazy folks and I've yet to see one without some sort of ID.....ever...even when working EMS. Nowadays if an ID is not valid and someone wants a loan or to sell they'll go and get one if they want something bad enough.
_________________________
"...the pool hall I loved as a kid is now a 7-11..."
If you don't like our prices bring your wife down and we'll dicker.
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#793021 - 10/18/12 03:06 PM
Re: Election Fraud
[Re: IrishRogue]
|
River Nutrients
Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 2572
Loc: right place/wrong time
|
Is ANYONE in favor of this Voter ID stuff willing to say the ratio they believe is right? What ratio would you support of:
Fraudulent votes prevented vs. Disenfranchised voters as a result of increased scrutiny?
I'm 1:1. If you can convince me you're preventing more fraud than your disenfranchising, you got me.
What is your ratio?
Every fraudulent vote equals an opposing vote being cancelled out, in other words (disenfranchised), so your 1:1 ratio is baked in the cake.
_________________________
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." Winston Churchill
"So it goes." Kurt Vonnegut jr.
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#793023 - 10/18/12 03:11 PM
Re: Election Fraud
[Re: blackmouth]
|
Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9013
Loc: everett
|
Year Total V.A.P. Total REG* % REG of V.A.P * Turnout % TO of V.A.P. 1960 109,672,000 63,854,789 * 58.22% 68,838,204 62.77% 1964 114,090,000 73,715,818 * 64.61% 70,644,592 61.92% 1968 120,328,186 81,658,180 * 67.86% 73,211,875 60.84% 1972 140,776,000 97,283,541 * 69.11% 77,718,554 55.21% 1976 152,309,190 105,024,916 * 68.96% 81,555,789 53.55% 1980 164,597,000 113,036,958 * 68.67% 86,515,221 52.56% 1984 174,468,000 124,184,647 * 71.18% 92,652,680 53.11% 1988 182,630,000 126,381,202 * 69.20% 91,594,693 50.15% 1992 189,044,500 133,821,178 * 70.79% 104,405,155 55.23% 1996 196,511,000 146,211,960 * 74.40% 96,456,345 49.08% 2000 205,815,000 156,421,311 * 76.00% 105,586,274 51.30% 2004 221,256,931 174,800,000 * 79.00% 122,295,345 55.27% 2008 230,782,870 TBD TBD 132,645,504 57.48%
40% don't even bother to vote.
_________________________
would the boy you were be proud of the man you are
Growing old ain't for wimps Lonnie Gane
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#793176 - 10/18/12 10:26 PM
Re: Election Fraud
[Re: ]
|
River Nutrients
Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 3116
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#793262 - 10/19/12 02:19 AM
Re: Election Fraud
[Re: Fast and Furious]
|
River Nutrients
Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 3116
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#793300 - 10/19/12 12:00 PM
Re: Election Fraud
[Re: ]
|
Dick Nipples
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27838
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
|
I hope you're not suggesting we send someone out to vote on their behalf?
Fish on...
Todd
_________________________
Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
0 registered (),
1036
Guests and
4
Spiders online. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
11499 Members
17 Forums
72933 Topics
825107 Posts
Max Online: 3937 @ 07/19/24 03:28 AM
|
|
|