I am seriously thinking about getting a muzzleloader. Can someone please recommend or edcucate me which brand and type is appropriate in Washington? I saw some very nice guns by CVA, Savage, Knight, and Thompson but I just don't know which type/models are legal in WA. I like to know a little bit before I talk with the sales man. A couple of guys behind the gun counter at SportCo didn't give me much service for asking too much questions. Lets put that bad customer service aside because I won't buy my gun there after that incident.

Thanks

I have a CVA Hawken and a T/C Thunderhawk. Both rifles are plenty accurate for the job at hand.

The thing you might want to consider first is caliber. Both my rifles are .54, but there are fewer of them out there now days, as most sold are now .50 cals. I might suggest that you choose a .50 cal, if for no other reason than it will be easier to find one. I like my .54, and all of my gear is suited for that.

You need to find one that either uses Musket or #11 caps. Both mine use the #11 standard caps. The reason you might want to choose one that uses the musket caps is if you plan to shoot Pyrodex pellets. Some of the .50 cal rifles out there can handle 150 grain loads, 3 pellets. Lots of the rifles out there can use musket caps as well as #11 caps. #209 shotgun primers are not legal for use during the standard ML season in Washington.

I like my stainless rifle, as it is much easier to clean. Sure it isn't traditional, but it is weatherproof. Blue steel, black powder, and rain are a recipe for rust, no matter how clean and oiled you keep it.

T/C, Remington, CVA, and Knight all make quality rifles. Find one that meets the criteria listed above in your price range, and buy it.

One thing you will find when you hunt this way is that you won't have a lot of company out there, and the season is pretty long. I think I've taken 7 deer with my ML, and seldom has there been anyone around to hear my shot.

Lyman also makes a nice ML, I think they call it the "Deerslayer", or "Deerstalker". Fairly inexpensive but quality seems OK and it's a little lighter than say, a Hawken. I've been thinking about picking one up for my 13 yr old.

Myself, I've always used a Thompson/Center .50 cal carbine. Love it.

Dog' is right that oftentimes you won't have a lot of company, but this isn't always true. Depends on your unit. I just returned from elk hunting in unit 342, and it seemed there was a hunter under every bush! Makes for great socializing however.

Thank you for the help guys.
So basically it is any rifle that does not use a shot shell and a 209 primer, right?

The #209 is a shotgun primer, and no gun that I am aware of uses a shotshell for ignition, but I could be wrong. Some of the rifles that are sold out there conceal the cap. The cap must be exposed to the elements. My interpretation of this is that you must be able to see at least some of the copper of the cap.

I really don't understand Washington's stand on the "209 primer", "the exposed to the elements", and "all lead bullet" issues. By allowing the 209 primers and protecting them from the rain it increases reliability, reduces the possibility of water getting to the powder, and possibly reduces the amount of deer wounded because of hangfires. A hangfire occurs when the cap is struck, but there is a delay before the powder goes off. Sometimes this is minimal, but other times it is very apparent.

I would like to be able to use some of the copper jacketed bullets in a sabot. I currently use a 390 grain bullet in a SWCHP formation that performs well, 340 grains retained weight and expansion from .535" to .865", but I think I could get better performance and cleaner kills from a 240 grain .429" bullet out of a sabot.

The main issue is that you still have a limited range, and you only get one shot. I could give or take the scope issue with a ML (can't have one currently) as I have shot 15 deer on my life, and only used a scope on three while hunting modern. I just wish they would open it up to all ML weapons that are single shot to make it simple. Then I'd buy one of those cool new T/C rifles.

I also like the Lyman rifles. Straight forward simplicity, but solid.

Dogfish gave you all the right scoop on what's legal.

Personally, I like the T/C Black Diamond XLR. I think you'd have a hard time beating the quality for the price, but then we all have our favorites.

I make sure my hunting muzzleloaders use musket caps because they burn so much hotter than standard #11 caps.

You might do a little research and then post the model you intend to buy here. I'm sure one or more of us could verify that it's legal in Washinton.

Good luck,

Fisherdan....have you had many misfires with the musket caps? I've had several with #11 caps and it cost me a deer last year.

Regarding muzzleloaders, I have stainless/composite stock Knight Wolverine in 50 caliber. I love it, but haven't really shot anything else so don't have much comparitive experience. I bought based on reports from several folks on other boards plus an article I found on Chuck Hawks site.

Yes, to be legal the nipple must be exposed to elements. However, I've seen plenty of folks out there using new modern in-lines where I couldn't see the nipple so it makes me wonder whether this is really being enforced. (?)

I like the current regs. It keeps some people away from it. Just think if they were as reliable as a rifle what is stopping everybody from switching over.
I shoot a Knight Bighorn, my party has 7 of them. And they are just about perfect.

BigTULE, I just handled a Knight Bighorn today and it was the best feeling my hands ever felt in awhile. Thats a stainless barrel, black synthetic stock with a thumb hole, right?
I am curious to know how it shoots. Does $369 sound right for this rifle?

Hey Little Fish,

I swithced to musket caps after experiencing too many misfires or hangfires with #11 caps.

Since going to musket caps the problem is gone.

I read somewhere that musket caps burn 600-700 degrees hotter than #11 caps. I can't swear to it, but here's what I do know. Shoot a couple of #11's off in your gun (cap only) and listen to the report. Then change to a musket nipple and do the same thing. The musket caps are WAAAAAY louder. to me, loud = big bang = good ignition = dead elk.

I don't have any personal experience with Knight's, but I know plenty of guys who love them, so they must be good. I just know that with my T/C Black Diamond XLR dialed in that I feel mighty confident going into the woods.

Best of luck,

Ok… so here is my take… I have had several muzzleloaders and am currently shooting the Lyman Great Plains (Hunter Barrel) in the .50 cal, using the Hornady 385 gr. Great Plain Bullet backed by 100 gr. of Pyrodex, I also use the Remington #11 cap.

I have not had any misfires… the rifle is very accurate out to 100yards.

Now…. As far as the regulations and why in Washington… the issue really comes down to the “type of weapon and history”. The current “Muzzleloader” season is pretty much mostly the traditional type of weapon, there are some rifles that are “inline” and don’t use the #209 primer… but it is open or traditional sites, no scopes (why would you need them for 100 yards)… but it is to try and keep it more traditional…

I know that there has been talk in the game department to break seasons into more categories, i.e. archery/bow into traditional/compound, muzzleloader traditional/inline. The BIG drawback to me and I have stated, is then we ALL will get less time for our seasons.

I believe that maybe the seasons should be based upon range of shot… Modern Firearm (100 yards PLUS), Muzzleloader (100 yards or less traditional style) and Archery (60 yards and less). If you want to use a Modern Muzzleloader (Pyrodex Pellets, #209 primer, Sealed “Flash Pan”, Jacketed Bullet) and shoot out past 100yards then just go ahead and put that type of weapon into the Modern Firearm Season…



Just my $0.02 worth … no offense to anyone.

Shoot Straight

I have both a Traditions and a CVA inline ML. They are both .50 cal. I use Musket caps as well because they are so much hotter. I was told by a game warden that the so called sealed breach ML like the Knights, Thompson, etc are not legal for use during ML seasons. The nipple must be open and exposed to the elements. That said, if you use a ML during modern firearm seasons, you can have a scope, sealed breach and jacketed bullets. This is because you are modern firearm hunting. But that is only if you have modern tags. My Traditions has a "fire dome" breach plug set up. I have never had a hang fire since switching to that plug. I shoot pyrodex pellets and power belt bullets. I use 295 grain power belts for deer and 348 for elk. I use two 50/50 pyrodex pellets, which is 100 grains, behind both loads. I have found that my groups get bigger with 150 grains. If you go shopping around you will see many cheap ML around the 120 price range. Both of my guns cost less than 150 bucks, and both shot well past 150 yards. Groups are around three inches at 100 yards on both guns. I have killed deer at 110 and 150 yards. A buddy used my CVA on a deer at 150 also. I have only killed one elk at 40 yards. I have the fiber optic sights for low light also. FisherDan had a bunch of info he shared with me when I first got into ML around 4 years back. You may want to check the archives for that. Another good place to stop by is the ML shop on River Road near the Clarks Creek bridge. They were very helpful and there prices are not bad. Wal-Mart has a complete ML package right now. I think the gun runs around 180. Just remember that the nipple must be exposed, the bullet for deer must be solid lead with no jacket, sabots are legal is the are at least .40 cal and lead with no copper jacket, .50 cal for any other big game. No scopes or glass tube sights. When I got into the ML stuff, I was told by several people you can't go wrong with a inline, pyrodex pellets, and power belts. Simple to use and simple to load.

Nice buck WBH...were you in one of the 340-units by chance? Thought I spoke with you up elk hunting in 342. Glad you got something.

Thanks for the info Fisherdan.

Wabowhunter......I read somewhere that the Remington #11 caps are more reliable than the other two common brands out there. I have yet to use them, but may give them a try.

Thanks Moe... and you might have talked to me if you were over in the 335 Teanaway area... we covered a lot of ground every day... Even the horseback hunters commented on seeing our foot prints everywhere.

Little Fish... I have shot (should say tried to shoot) the CCI caps and I will only ever use them to fowl my rifle or empty it... they take several hammer hits to ignite if at all... we have been using the Remingtons a lot and both my partner and I have never had a no-fire... love them. They are available at Walmart or Sportco carries the also...

I have another question.
I am definitely getting a Knight Bighorn and they have a 50 and a 52 caliber. I am leaning toward the 52 just because I have a mentality, "Bigger is better", so can you guys let me know the advantages and disadvantages of the two?

Thanks

You will have less options of bullets at the 52.

The knights are an open breach inline.

I can shoot 150 grains of pyrodex, but not as accurate. We shoot 110 grains with 348 bullets for everything.

I personally use the PR bullets. Saboted of course.
I use the CCI musket primers. They are the hottest of the primers we can shoot, that is also my opinion.
We have had our knights for 5 years now and we have killed 3 bulls, all 1 or 2 shots from 100- 140 yards.
Funny thing is they do not run when you shoot, they mill about trying to figure out what is going on.

Where we hunt it is getting to crowded. I saw a disabled hunter driving the roads last year with his plackard, i had to shake my head. Is he going to shoot an animal from the road???

Go with the .50 because there isn't much difference in size or weight of projectile but the availability of .50 cal. bullets (and the like) is much greater. (I assume you mean .50 vs. .54cal)

Bobs in Longview had Bighorns on sale for about $50- $100 less than the price you mentioned.The sale is probably over but if you call and ask they will usually give you the sale price.

They had all 3 variations of the 50 caL.

Thats what I shoot.Excellent gun.

The Dynamit Nobel german caps in the red plastic packs are by far the best caps out there.Chek them out.

I must be the freak in the bunch.

I use Remington's Model 700 inline muzzleloader. I originally bought a Knight 5 years ago but didn't do my homework well enough as the ignition wasn't legal.....back it went(sob!) I'd always shot Remington back in my modern rifle days and since they(at the time) were introducing a "Washington-legal" muzzleloader line, I gave it a go and have used it ever since. It's been a good accurate rifle and has accounted for 4 deer in 5 years.....all one shot kills.

I use #11 caps, Pyrodex RS at 100 grains and Knight 50 cal. & 260 grain bullets with a sabot.

Laughably, I didn't even know about musket caps until a friend showed me his this fall. Definitely bigger and would appear to generate a hotter ignition. I understand they are adaptable with a simple change of the nipple. Might have to look into this.

Thanksgiving tomorrow and then 3 weeks in the woods!!! One thing about this weather; crappy for fishing, great for hunting!

Good luck to all, maybe I'll see you out there if you hunt the coast.

We bought all of our bighorns at bobs.

Will be out tomorrow chasing deer. Brother will be chasing Elk.

Ironhead it is in the right price range... I personally just ordered the thumbhole stock for my Knight Bighorn, I bought it several years back and the thumbhole was not an option. Our party has been through all the muzzle loaders and if there is any advice I can give you it's to get a stainless model no matter what you choose. They hold up so much better. The blue'd ones just can't take the weather and corrosive powder well.

Also, BigTULE a little advice... I used to shoot 100-110 grains of pyrodex and got away from it because it is so much harder to clean your gun. I've switched to 150 grains of the Triple 7 powder with the 295 grain Powerbelt bullet and in the 10 years of muzzleloading never seen such a tight pattern at 100 yards. All my buddies but 1 shoot the Bighorns with this load... Plus I do agree that the CCI Musket Caps are the hottest out there.

For those of you still shooting the #11 caps do yourself a favor and spend the money on a musket nipple. You'll thank yourself in the long run. When we first started we had many misfires and delayed fires with those.

Another thing, I buy new Powder and caps every year and have never had a misfire since doing so.

Keith

Just a litle info. I shoot a Knight Disc extreme. anybody that knows this gun is thinking it's not legal. If you call Knight and talk to them they will sell you the breech plug to make it legal in WA. It's called the western ignition system. I think you can get it for any Knight rifle. they will even trade it at no cost if you don't use the other first. I can't say enough about Knight rifles. they are the best!! I got a great deal on mine from Gunbroker.com. shiped to my door. for what allot of shops wanted for a T/C Black Diamond XR. that was my second choice. but it has to many moving parts. I don't like that big moving action when you pull the trigger. My knight bolt holds the back of my Musket cap and won't let it get flipped off. Knight allso has a great double safety.

As for the .52 cal. I think you will regret that one. Buy the .50 first. you can get bullets everywhere. Just do a search locally and on the web for the bullets and make sure they are legall in Wa. You will change yer mind fast!! I did. LOL

Kris

I think I might have run into you in the dickey during elk season. If not I ran into another guy with a dsc extreme converted. For use in the NW. I shoot a Bighorn and can't believe how accurate it is. 348 powerbelt and 100 grains pellets

tunaklr

It wasn't me. I don't hunt that erea.

I shoot the 300 grn/.50 cal, sabot ,QT by Precision Rifle's. I like them and am going to to do a little more testing with more powder. right now I shoot 120 grns of 777 FFg. Oh and I allso shoot the musket caps.the #11 don't compare.

Kris

dcFitter,

I shoot the exact same load as you accept #11 mag caps out of a T/C black diamond 22". Did lots of testing before I got the right load. Shoots same hole groups every time at 50 yd and sub 1" at 100yd from a bench rest. Killed an elk at 110 yds off hand and a deer at 80 yd off hand this year. Elk went 5 ft and the deer went 40 yd. both were lung shots with lots of blood on the ground. DEADLY is all I can say!!!!!!!!!!