duck in the fog, I just started from one of the first experiances I had with this kind of abuse by the indians. follow behind them sometime after they are done shellfishing a beach....not a rock unturned, follow you nose to a huge pile of rotting chum salmon stripped of their eggs. rape is rape even if you raise the women yourself.

Mr.T yes there are abuses by the indians . I'm sure glad the whites never abuse the resource. Ha

duck in the fog, I am not saying that whites don't abuse, it's just a lot harder to do serious damage with 2oz. of lead and a treble hook then a gill net. at least they can fine a snagger.

my lord

fellas, i am amazed, in my opinion most of the people responding to the tribal treaty rights post are psuedo-humans, in fact it appears that you are racists!!! there seems to be a couple of fellas who understand that the problems in america only began once the white man arrived. read a book called "ecological imperialism" boy, this message is to those of you slandering the indian tribes, the foundation of racism is the hatred for oneself, you must really loathe yourselves. and your leader bob ball supports this, i saw his little video, bob looks like he could loose a few pounds, probably because he never gets out of the boat, do you walk bob? ever? dont worry guys you have no shot at touching tribal netting, first of all, the tribes do more work to protect habitat and study the fish than dfw, dnr, usfs, or private timber industry. why don't you guys bite the legs of agriculture or the timber industry. shoot, by now i would think that all intelligent fisherman knew hatchery fish are damaging to wild fish, however, i have read several posts that support hatcheries, i don't, where is my payback? hatcheries kill wild fish. what is a nate? or a steelie? i think you guys should go back to school, educate yourselves (if possible), learn how to spell (you guys don't spelle veri welll), quit referring to a noble fish with white trash trailor park slang, get out of your boats and walk for once. the exercise will loosen your anger towards other races and allow you to see how foolish and ignorant you all sound. reading this site is like reading ann landers for the ignorant. could care less what you post back to me. grow up and look forward to the next century, a time full of racial diversity, let us celebrate life and the differences among us. bye bye guys

dhlawerence, far from being ignorant or prejudiced (a prejudice is an opinion formed without fair examination of facts). I find stating things that I have seen happen fair examination. as far as us(whities)not getting out of our boats(I don't even own one) go watch the tribal gill netters sometime.

dhlawerence, I like the way you think. It is getting out of hand. About my spelling I guess I ain't got no learning I'll work on it. Fishing from the bank {i.e.Me) or boat shouldn't make a difference. I get a little bored sometimes. This is what happens.

Thanks goodness, a post from an educated person!

First of all, DH, I'm so very grateful that you pointed out that many of us do not always use proper grammar and spelling in our posts. Since this seems to be a pet peeve of yours, I would suggest that you learn how to spell "trailer", as well as the proper use of punctuation in your posts. I would hate to see you suffer over this. Oh, lest I forget your excellent use of capitalization!

I'll be happy to pass along your insights as to my educational background to the University of Washington. I would venture to guess that you feel that we are uneducated because many of us fail to comply with your standards of political correctness.

Thank you for your vote in support of my leadership of a group of concerned anglers with enough guts to stand up for the fish without succumbing to the pressure of not saying anything that might possibly offend someone.

I suppose you're right in your thought that we must all hate ourselves and the foundation of racism is based upon the hatred of oneself. I didn't think so at first, but then my part native girlfriend mentioned that she doesn't approve of the fishing and hunting activities of the tribal members either.

You see DH (is that a nickname, just like 'steelie' or 'nate'?), it is the actions that we dislike, not necessarily the people. If you were a regular reader of the board, as an educated man, you would surely see that as our comments regarding the decline of the fisheries are directed in many directions: the tribes, the state, the commercial anglers, the loggers, and low and behold, even ourselves once in a while.
Again, if you were a regular reader of the board you might have also seen the numerous discussions of hatcheries and perhaps would have known that many of us feel that as a whole, hatcheries are not the answer, yet they likely have their place in the grand scheme of things.

If you're such an educated outdoorsman, then I'm sure you know that in-river gillnetting as it is currently practiced is one of the most harmful influences there is on a steelhead run. Not only from the harvest, but in respect to the discriminate killing of larger fish, as well as the fact that the heartiest of our stocks, the repeat spawners, are forced to run the gauntlet of nets a minimum of three times before their second spawning.

Ignorance? Whites and the state of Washington had the common sense to decommercialize the harvest of steelhead almost 70 years ago.

Thanks for advising me of my dietary and exercise needs, I'm sure that you put in at least six or seven hours a day on your rowing machine as I do.

And just to slander some more, here's a nice article from the Tacoma News Tribune from a couple of months ago. If you like, substitute the word "Specially privileged white hunters" in place of the word "Indian hunters" and this article reads just as bad ... as usual, the cry "racist" comes out when we question a hunting or fishing practice. DH, wake up, label us racist if you want, but please explain to me how this action is justified regardless of who is doing it:

Elk viewing area closed at Mt. St. Helens

By Bob Mottram

The State Department of Fish and Wildlife temporarily has closed a 2,800 acre wildlife-viewing area near Mount St. Helens to protect wintering elk.
The Department said more than 500 elk have been pushed into the area by heavy snows at higher elevations. They are trying to conserve energy during this seasonal period of food shortages, the department said, and become stressed if they have to move to avoid people.
The wildlife area is located just off the Spirit Lake Memorial Highway, Washington 504, about 30 miles east of Castle Rock. It may remain closed to the public through May, the department said.
Fred Dobler, the department's wildlife program manager for the region encompassing the viewing area, said the highway does not penetrate the area, and unpaved roads into the area are gated and locked. However, some people park on the highway and walk in or ride in on horses, he said, and that is now prohibited.
Indian hunting in the viewing area is not a stress factor for the animals, Dobler said.
"This is part of the Loo-Wit (Game Management Unit)" Dobler said. "Some of the local tribal regulations have the Loo-Wit as being a closed area, some of them do not, and some of them I don't know about. But most of the tribal seasons are closed now anyway."
Traffic on the highway is not expected to disturb the animals.
Most of the elk feed on the valley floor, he said, and the highway is on the hillside.
"They're separated by forested slopes," Dobler said. "In some places you can see the elk with binoculars from the highway, but it's at a distance where there's really not any disturbance."

The days of double standards and special rights will end. Maybe not tomorrow, but I'll guarantee you one thing: until everyone in this country lives under the same set of rules, things will never improve for "people of color", despite the best efforts of the NAACP.

Nice reply Bob,very well said. Keep up the good work. I hope you have a great summer up north, keep us posted.

Howdy all !! If this topic doesn't get a sportsmans blood boiling nothing will. I am personally offended when someone else gets more "rights" than I do. The "natives" are no different than us. We are all descendants from someone, but WHO CARES! Just because you have X blood and I have Y blood doesn't mean that one of us gets different rules to live by. Now I wouldn't trade places with most people in the "villages", just by the outward appearance of the dwellings it doesn't appear to be a happy place. I do have several questions about the reservations (on the O.P. for example,) maybe some folks can educate me on this topic. Who pays to build the "track" housing as seen in some villages? Who pays for all the biologists that DH says the tribes have? Who builds the roads on the reservations and who supplies the "company" cars? Are the natives able to receive welfare, foodstamps, medical coupons, social security? Do natives have to pay income tax and sales tax as well as s.s. and medicare witholding? Are the utilities subsidized? These are all rumors that I have heard for years, and I am hoping someone can set the record straight if only for a specific tribe. If some of these questions are true then why do we (US citizens) allow this to happen? It is not right that someone gets the best of both worlds. Either you are an American and you get gov. assistance if you qualify, or you are a foreign nation and you are self supporting. I don't care who was here first, it was 200+ years ago. The history of the world has evolved by wars, you either won or lost, and if you lost you changed or you were killed. I don't support war, but it happens and life (sometimes) goes on. Sorry for the rambling, let the flaming begin

Nice response snit. My heritage is half German and half Irish. I can't recall getting a discount on brats or potatoes-beer or whiskey. I should right, my forefathers brought them to this great country of ours. We could all carry Ethnic Discount cards that show our heritage, and you recieve discounts or special rights based on your background.

Your right, we are not the ones who should be paying for the inhumanity of the past, if that were true then those who are of Jewish faith should have their way with all of German decent.

The slate made clean makes all benefit equally. Lets face it if your born in this country your heritage is American.


[This message has been edited by Coho (edited 05-07-99).]

Hey everyone.

Hope we're all having a nice day today.
It's raining here. Still caught a nice native today on the Kalama.

ALL netting of steelhead and salmon makes my head hurt. What a horrible way to define a fish: dollars.

I will never agree that it's a good idea, nor will I ever agree that WDFW's "management" is worth a damn.

This is my, I hope, informed opinion about treaty fishing rights. The courts say they have them, and have defined what they are. That's 50/50. We can argue about the models that set escapement, but we still get back to 50/50.

Arguing with that, whether you like it or not, which I surely do not, is like complaining about the weather. Do it all you want, but it sure as Hell isn't gonna change. Whattaya gonna do, sue Mother Nature?

Political solutions working with the tribes is the only way to do it. Also, as Bob noted above, passing B.A.N. will put the bad politics on the tribes, rather than the other way around, which is where it has been for a while.

Support B.A.N., sign those petitions (just once, please!), and do what you can in your own backyard and driveway to protect steelhead and salmon habitat.

Have a nice day. Looking forward to summer runs in a few weeks (where they still are!).

Fish on...
Todd.

good point coho, I think I would get a discount on just about everything<hinz 57>
todd: 50% of nothing is what? you are right that arguing about it does no good, it is law<still sucks though>
maybe we could sneak a rider on some other bill and make all nets have to be water soluble<hmmm>

that Hi tooten comnunist needs to get out from behind his computer screen ounce in a while. o.k. I don't have the big degree and sometimes spell a little diferent. I happen to be a little Indian myself but big deal I'm just living like aeverybody els. you would never tell that I am. Like the other guy said wars come and go and there are winers and loooozers. it's people like that communist that keap the pot stired up and not let things settle down.we are sapose to be united in this land. ALL created equally.I really liked the deal about Mt st. Helens. I hunt and fish and camp in that era often and know exactly what goes on around there. th resone the elk are dying of this starvation disiese isn't all they make it to be. there is plenty food around for them. they just get pressured to much. the Inians start hunting them June 1 and don't stop until the end of Febuary with the added tention of non-tribal seasons. if I had to run from hunters 9 months a year including calving times I would starv in short time. the cards are on the table and people like those OVER educated idiots can't realize that sometimes the simple things are best saw by the simple man.


dcrzfitter

I can say this with alot of conviction. The Indians don't give a rats ass about politics good or bad. If this was brought up to any of them they would laugh.

i dont want a war of words and was just voicing my opinion. congratulations bob for referring to the diversity of races as "people of color" , double standards are unfair, but the white people get 50% and the tribes get 50%, where is the inequity. white anglo-europeans have been the cause of extinction throughout the world, this is what education produces, i know bob has an education, but to drzdrift and mrt, you seem angry and upset and im sorry for that. just remember, white people have caused more environmental destruction than any other race, do you eat macdonalds? they cut down rainforests in s. america to raise their cattle, do you eat beef in the supermarket? if you do, then you are supporting the use of steriods,destruction of stream habitat, and on top of it, you are eating meat that will kill you with cancer. we need to create new standards, not rely on war or racism, i didnt say prejudice, white people have taken, not through war-but through lying to people or killing people who are innocent of anything but not wanting to support american industry. i wish everyone luck and hopefully, you can focus energy on damn removal, bad timber practices, and agriculture, these are your enemies, they destroy fish and produce food that rots in cilos while poor people in america starve, or harvest timber that is sold to japan and then resold back to our mills at jacked up prices. equality is right, for all of us.

good luck, and i hope this post is reasonable
dh

dh, I read more anger in your first post than in any other post I have seen on this sight so far, go back and review your intentions before accusing others.
as far as extinctions go, there is new evidence that native americans were responsible for the extinction of many species long before white man ever even thought about coming across the water.( mastedon, giant sloth etc.)
the only reason there was any game at all left was because of the no-mans land between waring tribes, where to hunt was to be in danger of being ambushed.
so you see your ancestors may not have been as enviromentally concious as you think.
p.s. your spelling sucks.

Mr.T I,m hedging on your response about native americans were the eradicators of mastadons and giant sloths. Please where can I read this material.

Fingers are pointing, but the reality of it is that we are all in this together. Working together is the only way we to solve this thing. Every group has there little problems but nothing will ever get done by arguing, obviously it hasn't worked until this point has it??? Every one needs to do there part. Whether it's being careful with the nates or with Indian nets. It's pretty sad that it comes down to dollars but reality sets in. Just do your part!!! I have to say that I agree with a little bit of every ones posts and that makes it hard. On one hand the Indians dick got [Bleeeeep!] in the beginning on the other thats just the way the world was. I think BAN is a great idea, you bet my white voting ass wants those nets out. Wants more fish, etc. etc. Who Doesn't! I release all my nates and abide by every rule, fish friggin barbless even when not required to. It's just my little part. I can't blame anyone when I see it on both ends. How many of you have seen white guys poaching, dragging nates on the beach, running to the car. i've been in near fist fights screaming at these wankers. They have the same mentality, (there not gettin' my fish). Oh ya, that helps. It's not just one group any more. Maybe we can point fingers until all the fish are gone!!! People better start to wise up with a quickness. use your vote, your voice to get this job done.

had to take a break and see if there was any fish still out there. happy to report there is, got three nice hatchery fish out of the kalama today. kept two crome bucks around ten lbs. let the hen swim.
duck in the fog: there was an article in the tacoma news tribune about a month ago on this subject, you can also read Lewis and Clarks journal and there is a lot mentioned on the subject of over hunting by native americans. the info is out there, I could tell you some of it but you would not believe it unless you read it yourself, good luck.

dh,yes you made me a little upset! I don't take to kindly to being refered to as trailer trash. Call me RED NECK that's o.k. and allso another story. I'm a law abiding citizen that believes what I see and when sobody tries to sell me another story and calles me names for believing like I do I'm going to get a little hot. Like I've said before there are good Indians I relize that but what ticks me off is that they get special rights. Everybody is screaming for equality but then they take more. all I want to see is everybody going by the same laws. why should Indian or anybody else get different laws? yes we have all done our part in bringing the salmon to where they are. and we won't solve anything by arguing. wrong is wrong no matter who is the one doing it. I get really ticked when I see white guys poaching and get even ticked more when they get busted really get the book thrown at them and then if an Inian does the same or worse nothing happens or they get a hand slapped. No I 'm not saying the white guys should get a brake. they should have stiffer penaltys but should allso enforce them evenly to everybody no matter who they are. I'm curious about one thing DH. do you saport BAN or are you agianst it. I would think some one like yerself,being concernd about the enviroment would be an avid saporter. am I right? I agree with you about the damns needing to be changed but I don't think they should remove ALL of them. I think they should be required to have GOOD fishladders like they were originally. I allso don't like the timber being cut and sold overseas and then sold back at a higher price. I think that itself has in a large way hurt our salmon indirectly. No I don't eat at macdonalds. YUCK!!! we actually grow our own pork and beaf, it taste much better and is a lot more healthy.as a matter of fact I'm having home grown pork tonight and need to go eat it. see yall around


dcrzfitter