Todd,

If tough restrictions worked why does Chitcago, NY, DC, Detroit, etc have the highest gun crime/violence? They are the MOST restrictive yet they are always jostling for the dubious title of "murder capital of the U.S. Places with the highest (legal) gun ownership have some of the lowest rates of gun violence.

Help me understand (with facts) how tough restrictions and less firearm ownership in the U.S equals less gun crimes. The evidence doesn't support your assertion.

My assertion is this, and I can't repeat it enough...

Things are going to change. The American people are clamoring for it and they have a sympathetic ear in the White House.

Not wanting things to change, or just saying "more guns is the answer" will do nothing other than disqualify you from participating in whatever the change will be.

That's my assertion. That's also part of the reason why the NRA is marginalizing itself...it can't even agree to a nominal change in gun laws.

There's no way to know what additional background check provisions or a AWB would have done in any of those cases, or if they'd have done anything at all...but that's almost irrelevant compared to the truth that something is going to change, and that change is coming down the tracks as we speak.

If you're not on the train you will either be left at the station (by choosing to not participate at all) or be run over on the tracks like the NRA (by trying to stand in front of the train).

Fish on...

Todd

Todd,

Saying nothing of substance over and over doesn't make it more substantive.

Saying things will change is a cop out, we all know change is inevitable. You'd be more intellectually honest to say you haven't a fu.cking clue what to do and whatever pelosi can pass is what you want also.

Answer the question I asked.

lol.....

Tilting at windmills...

Here's the thing...you guys may have brainwashed by the NRA into believing that anyone who doesn't feel exactly as the NRA does wants to ban all guns, including bb guns, and then react accordingly.

We're not talking about banning any guns here at all...at least I am not.

I am talking about closing the gunshow loophole, and closing it entirely, not in the way the FP is proposing...that exception would just eat up the rule.

Here's the last time...and I'll say it as clearly as possible:

Change is going to come.

Participate in the change and try to make both the change meaningful and the protection of your rights meaningful, too.

Stand in front of the that train and you get exactly what you deserve.

That's what the NRA would have you do...do not sacrifice your rights as a gun owner at the altar of the NRA's puppet masters. If they want to commit suicide, let 'em.

Fish on...

Todd

HOW WOULD CHANGING THE "GUNSHOW LOOPHOLE" HAVE DONE ANYTHING TO PREVENT WHAT HAS HAPPENED?????

That's what I don't understand by your insistence to do something...anything....even if it isn't meaningful, doesn't work and is completely irrelevant.

Todd...your hatred of the NRA is fine but it doesn't mean that doing something, anything or everything is well thought out or effective. It lumps you into the "I don't have a clue" crowd.

Shouldn't we address the issues that might be useful?

The NRA isn't perfect for some and it doesn't do enough for others. They are far more sane than the Brady nuts or cease fire. None of which (except the NRA) have anything meaningful to add to the 'debate'.

Solutions and suggestions are more worthwhile at this point than predictions of inevitable change.

So while I may or may not be behind universal backround checks how does that change ANYTHING?

i liked the idea of a gun offender registry, just like with sex offenders.... wouldnt make it impossible, but its a very good start...

I'm against a "sex offender" registry.

Execution for real sex offenders is the only solution. GUARANTEED!

+ a couple

a liberal wouldn't stand for this.

makes to much sense.

Close the gun show loophole? Does that mean no private gun sales at gun shows or no private gun sales anywhere?

RvW, yes, we should do something that will work.

Short of that, or in service of that, something is going to be done, and soon.

Offering up "more guns!" will not work.

I'm not telling gunowners what they should do, other than tell them that sitting behind the NRA while they say "what we really need to do is relax gun laws!" will get you ignored.

If you have a useful suggestion, now is the time to get it out there...decisions are being made, and fast, and without our input.

Fish on...

Todd

I suspect that the ex cop, shooter isn't crazy. He does seem to have a hell of grudge, perceived or
actual.

I am beginning to understand your problems with the Bar. Just who do you whore for Todd?
I support the NRA. Like all organizations, there are humans in the mix and humans can usually be depended to
have a bit of rot in their organizations.

Define Crazy.
Btw most of the "not guilty by reason of insanity" perps are just listening to their defense lawyer's input.

Legislating generality laws will not fix those idividuals that are damaged and have a grudge or death wish.
Too bad our mental health systems can't adress the problem.

Assimov had an idea. "I Robot"

Illy, as usual you are understanding little about the world, and nothing about me.

I do, however, agree that mental health diagnosis and treatment would go a long way towards improving a ton of things in this country, not just crazy people shooting people.

Fish on...

Todd

Absolutely agree, but maybe they could use a little help in vehicle identification, because that truck doesn't look like a gray Nissan Titan. Close enough though, and why not just light up a truck, in a residential neighborhood. What's the worst that could happen? That house probably made a fine backstop.

I am so Fawking appauled that Police shot up two unidentified subjects in that truck, with obvious excessive force. Looking at the number of holes, they had to have each emptied 1-2 clips of 9 into that truck...
Absolutely Irresponsible
Totally Ridiculous
They should be off the force for good as a threat to the Public, and forced to pay all costs coming to the Taxpayers when these ladies sue the ass off the County.

Looks a little like a spray and pray too... is there a point to shooting the tailgate?

They should be in jail, not just off the force.

Fish on...

Todd

Sorry I joined the conversation a little late, as I was either sleeping, or throwing up yesterday. I much preferred the sleeping.

As to my thoughts on criminals and mental deffectives with guns, you pretty much already know. They shouldn't have them. Finding a way to not trample on an innocent person's right to bear arms, while protecting the public is tricky. It is the way that the process is applied that will determine if it is successful or not. Sadly, .GOV isn't too good at that.

As far as someone wanting to take my firearms without cause, MOLON LABE.

<wiki>The phrase molon labe (Ancient Greek &#956;&#959;&#955;&#8060;&#957; &#955;&#945;&#946;&#941; mol&#333;&#768;n labé; reconstructed Ancient Greek pronunciation [mol&#596;&#720;n labé]; Modern Greek pronunciation [mo&#712;lon la&#712;ve]) means "Come and take". It is a classical expression of defiance reportedly spoken by King Leonidas I in response to the Persian army's demand that the Spartans surrender their weapons at the Battle of Thermopylae. It is an exemplary use of a laconic phrase.

My Bronco is blue. and kind of looks like a pickup. I think I will be walking today . Yeah, I know, they found the truck so no worries. I just walk because I can!

Dogfish, what do you think of the statement regarding AW in this guys manifesto?