http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/07/us/lapd-attacks/index.html?eref=igoogledmn_topstories

If the cops are right and this suspect is the perp, then what could have been done? These questions pertain just as well to the ex-SEAL who was killed by a fellow vet suffering from PTSD last week.

In retrospect it's easy to see...these dudes were crazy and should not have been carrying guns. But they were, and legally.

We all agree (well, all of us except for the NRA) that background checks should be mandatory for all handgun sales, that's an easy one.

How does a background check get used to keep a crazy dude from getting a gun?

And second, and perhaps even more important after this incident and the one last week...how does someone who's legally carrying get his guns taken away when he's clearly become unstable and not a responsible carrier any more?

Everyone agrees that crazy people shouldn't have guns, but who would support checking to see if people are crazy before giving them guns, or even harder, who would support checking in on folks to see if they've become crazy?

And...in spite of saying "guns don't kill people, people kill people!" for decades, who thinks that the NRA would do anything other than scream bloody murder if any proposals addressing either of these possibilities were drawn up?

We can ignore them for a while, as we all know that the answer to crazy people with guns is more guns when we're talking the NRA...let's talk actual possibilities.

Fish on...

Todd

I have friends with PTSD and despite the over hyping of people faking it for the disability, I believe its legit in some people.

Todd the issue is with the people not really the system. When we get back from a deployment, we are required to complete several surveys and questionaires and talk to people about your mental health. The surveys are constructed to bring up red flags that will point to PTSD.

The issue is, people aren't being truthful on these. Those are the people that you see walking aroudn just fine until they do something idiotic. LIke that 'tard that shot up that village and is touting PTSD. Trust me if he was honest on that survey he would not be placed in that situtation again.

Yeah, but what gunowner is going to say "you know, I think I'm a little whacked out here and you should take my guns away"...?

Of course the problem is with the people...crazy people shouldn't have guns.

That's the question, though...how do we prevent crazy people from getting guns, and how do we get guns back from crazy people who already have them?

The answer is not to have more guns so we can all play shoot-em-up with crazy people because too many innocent people die from crazy people with guns.

Everyone agrees (even the NRA, which is kind of amazing) that crazy people shouldn't be armed...what we need is a solution other than "more guns!" to stop crazy people from having guns.

If every gunowner were a responsible gunowner then we wouldn't have nearly the problems we have now, but clearly every gunowner is not responsible.

Fish on...

Todd

How about internet users???? To much stimulation you know.......Dark side would be a lot less fun though.

Todd,

Crazies don't admit they are Crazy until they need an alliby.

And judging by the last several replies, even though everyone agrees that crazy people shouldn't have guns, since "guns don't kill people, people kill people", there's clearly no interest in actually stopping crazy people from having guns.

I almost feel like the President should present it to gunowners and the NRA this way, like the NCAA does with violators, and how many parents do it with their kids...

Come up with a solution that works, or we will...and "the answer is always more guns!" is not a solution.

The NRA and the gun/ammo industry they whore for have no interest in crazy people not being armed...they have interest in crazy people buying tons of guns and ammo, and then everyone else having to buy tons of guns and ammo to defend themselves from all the crazy people.

That world sucks, and that's the one the NRA is whoring out for the guns and ammo industry.

Fish on...

Todd

It is impossible to prevent every tragedy and creating laws and procedures to hopefully prevent the very few is a farce. This cop would have had every opportunity to be subjected to multiple psychological evaluations, more than any application that would be practical or affordable for a civilian and they still failed to identify him as a threat until he was fired.

It is just like vehicle safety equipment, speeding laws, warning signs etc... no matter how good it is, there will still be injuries and fatalities. The fact is, in that respect, the government can't even keep old people off the road when the family KNOWS that a relative shouldn't be driving. These would be a high risk group of drivers... just ask an insurance company, but we do nothing to keep them off the road.

Listening to the news last night I heard three shooting stories in a row (because those are the only newsworthy stories of course) and all three of the shooters were previously convicted- the Munchbar suspect was one of them... why is this guy on the street? How did HE access guns as a known felon?

I think we would be working in a positive direction if we focused more on enforcing the laws we have and investing in more in mental health evaluations of the population with the highest risk for PTSD or whatever illness creates these issues and focus less on the tools used in the crime. The tool is a constant between good and evil- it would be more productive to try and identify the evil doers before the crime than start removing weapons or access from the populace.

Here is the shooter's manifesto. Quite the entertaining read.

http://marker.to/79aCYM

Wow.

JTD, that argument would apply to getting rid of speed limits, and any other law, for that matter, since they don't always stop the activity they seek to stop or prevent deaths.

Too many drunk drivers? Clearly the penalties and laws aren't good enough to stop them, so we may as well just get rid of them.

Laws against robbing banks clearly haven't stopped bank robberies...may as well get them off the books, too.

This is the exact opposite of the "straw man" argument.

A Straw Man argument makes up a problem that doesn't actually exist and argues against that one, instead of a real one.

This is the Iron Man argument...it claims that the problem has no perfect solution, so we need not do anything at all about it. Check how everyone in the scientific world feels about man's effect on global climate change, and how politicians choose to deal with it for an example of how this one works.

The fact is that the NRA is blaming the problem on people, and then saying it's an unsolvable problem, so what we really need are more guns and more shooters.

Fish on...

Todd

Here's some reality:

The American people want something to change.

The Administration will do the peoples' bidding on this.

That change will not be "more guns".

Here's the job of gun owners...not the NRA, they don't support any of us who own guns, they support the gun industry, and only the gun industry...our job as gun owners is to come up with something other than "No!".

The American people see us as part of the problem, not part of the solution, and we've given them no reason to think otherwise...and, in fact, every penny we send to the NRA, every time LaPierre opens his mouth, and every time Ted Nugent opens his mouth, we prove that we are part of the problem to them.

What's it gonna be?

Fish on...

Todd

this situation with this guy has great potential to get way ugly. this guy has sniper training.

How do you think this will end?

Good guy with a gun.

Or the bad guy will blow his brains out.

The sooner the better.

Sarcasm at it's finest!

this will end in a major gun fight/shootout. i don't think he die by his own bullet. he'll be taken out by a drone.

(Todd)

No... you assert a leap of logic that wasn't suggested or intended.

I am saying there is an acceptable number or instances of tragedy whether it is gun related, driving related or otherwise. If we are focused on preventing more deaths, why wouldn't we then focus on practical and affordable areas like getting old people off the road, repeat offenders put away and identifying people in other high risk categories rather than beating up the general population of law abiding citizens?

It isn't the tool used. It is the people and more than half the time we know who these people are but don't do anything about it.

I suggest mental heath screenings are a joke with this ex cop's story used as an example.

As for your Iron Man argument and the NRA's "No" statement, how about a license just like your driver's license or a CWP that can be revoked and needs to be presented in order to purchase a firearm? Same background check, no registration or restriction of freedom or limit imposed... either I am in good standing as a citizen or not.

This guy was anti-gun, anti-NRA and an obama supporter. That might the common thread with all these mass shootings.

BTW...since he was an ex-cop and in the Navy don't you think he'd been vetted pretty thoroughly?

Yeah, I'd say he was pretty well vetted at a few points in his career...but he clearly shouldn't have been carrying at time this incident happened. That's the question...how do we stop the people end of "guns don't kill people, people kill people"?

If we're not going to stop guns, then we need to stop the crazy people from having them...or the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" statement goes from philosophical to ludicrous.

Fish on...

Todd

I know what you're saying Todd and agree but I don't think it's remotely possible to stop all crazy people from doing crazy, heinous crimes.

With or without guns.

What makes a gun crime worse than a DUI killing folks? If it was all about "saving just 1 life" why do we still allow folks to drive? Driving isn't a Constitutionally protected right yet more are killed on the roads each year.

I don't get the hyper panic that's gripping some folks...

We're not talking about DUI's, or plane crashes, or misdiagnoses from doctors...we're talking about gun violence, and saying "it's not as bad as other things, so if we 're not going to stop the other things we shouldn't stop this, either" makes just as much sense as saying "it's not guns, it's people" and then ignoring both guns and people in the equation.

Fish on...

Todd

Is the issue guns or the needless deaths of innocents?

PS....I know the anti-gun crowd wants nothing to obscure the emotional argument about guns but if you aren't willing to look at all innocent deaths then it just makes the gun argument seem trivial.

If you join the NRA in the "stick your head in the sand" crowd you'll have it there while laws are being passed involving guns.

DUI laws were created when it was apparent that drunk driving was killing people...and when they needed to, they made the penalties far stricter. Cars are vital to the entire economy, comparing them to guns is stupid.

If the NRA were testifying on DUI laws they'd contend that if we all drank more when we drove then we'd all be equally drunk and it wouldn't be a problem any more.

If Drunk Driving were outlawed, then only outlaws would drive drunk! Can't have that now, why let the outlaws have all the fun?

Fish on...

Todd

Pfffttt...

DUI laws, irregardless of how strict they are, don't stop the thousand upon thousands of deaths anymore than MORE gun laws will stop criminals from shooting people.

To think otherwise is beyond stupid.

True! And no matter how vetted this guy was the gov't figured that issuing him a weapon/s was a good idea. They even gave him top notch training and paid him.

Can anyone explain why people with DUI's are still legally able to buy liquior? Seems not allowing it would same hundreds if not thousands more than banning assualt rifles. Like its being asked, is it about the guns or about saving innocentlives?

im listening to CNN right now, and read some of what he said...

to me, it sounds as like he is extremely pissed off at the LAPD, he stated that the department hasnt changed since the Rampart and King beating days, they are worse than they were before (corruption wise)... and he is fed up with it...

im all for changing the way corrupt police officers work ect... but this isnt the way to accomplish that....

this is like a modern day, real life Rambo situation...

RvW, something is going to change, whether you like it or not.

The form of that change will depend on a lot of things, but one thing is for certain, 100% for certain;

If your contribution, like the NRA's, is to compare guns to spoons, airplanes, and DUI's, then your contribution will be ignored.

The gun and ammo industry has long, long, long bullied everyone into going with their position, and Americans aren't going to let them this time. This isn't an opinion, this is a fact...too much has happened in a short time for business as usual to go on.

Just a few short years ago Wayne LaPierre raised his hand and testified to Congress that he and the NRA fully support closing the gunshow loophole, that every sale of a handgun should only be made through the lens of a background check.

Now everyone, including the great majority of the members of the group he represents, is on board with that...and not surprisingly he and the NRA are officially against NOT onboard with anymore. They're going to get ignored now, too, and it's their own fault...they are farther and farther outside the mainstream every day.

I guess the options are to ignore the problem, and then be ignored, or embrace the fact that something is going to change and participate in the change.

Fish on...

Todd

It's about saving innocent lives from gun violence...which, not surprisingly, has nothing to do with cars, planes, trains, or spoons.

Thousands of people die every day...and if the choice is to stop all deaths or we're not going to talk about guns at all, then that's a wrong choice, besides being nonsensical.

You guys are arguing over whether there should be a change or not...that train has left the station. There's going to be a change...either get on board and shape the change, or get left at the station...that's the reality of what is happening right now.

Fish on...

Todd

Not to make light of this whole situation but -

Would you use assault weapons to get rid of them or find some other way?

This guy nails my thinking about assault weapons in his manifeso. Why does anybody need them?

The other one somewhat similiar to this is the nut case (who happened to be a Muslim) who shot up Fort Hood. Where did he get his gun?

The problem with the NRA and those who drink their Kool-Aid is that they don't see being "right with the 2nd Amendment" as having anything reasonable done at all...anything that they don't like is defacto "violating the righ to bear arms"...

The NRA has appointed themselves judge, jury, and executioner on any issue involving the 2nd Amendment, and the truth is that they are none of the above.

Fish on...

Todd

PS If you own a Blue Pickup park that MF'r!!

I expect that the o/u on innocent people killed by LAPD should be 4 1/2.

I got a fiver on the under

Todd, Change is inevitable but change just for the sake of change is stupid. Have you seen the size of the book of ATF laws on firearms?

What would YOU do, if you were King, that would have prevented Newtown, Aurora, Columbine or VA tech? Assuming the 2A is in force (inow.. saying.. I'd have all guns confiscated won't work).

How would you, with 100% certainty, prevented those tragic shootings within the framework of the 2A?

This is a good discussion and I think the exchange of ideas is what's needed.

I don't disagree with any of that, Hank...that's how legislation is supposed to be written.

When a background check requirement is put in, though, everyone who votes for it will get an "F" from the NRA...and everyone should give the NRA a big "F-U" back.

Fish on...

Todd

I don't know any silver bullet that would solve all gun violence overnight, RvW, and I don't think anyone does.

That, however, should not stop people from making changes anyway.

Since we can't 100% stop all traffic fatalities should we get rid of all traffic regulations?

A mandatory background check for any handgun sale is a no brainer...no one should be against that. It's only a start, but it's moving in the right direction.

The NRA would tell you that it is a quick few steps from there to banning all guns...that's where they have left reality behind...the only slippery slope they should be worried about is the one they stepped on the first time they compared spoons to guns, and have been sliding down headfirst ever since.

Fish on...

Todd

All that's true, so long as when you say "most states" you mean "in less than half the states".

Fish on...

Todd

Dealers are required to do it everywhere...that's not "the loophole". The loophole refers to private sales of handguns, and 33 states do not require background checks (including Washington State).

It's referred to as the "gunshow loophole" because in most states you can go to a gun show and buy a gun from a dealer, fill out the forms, pass the background check, and then get your gun...or go to the table next to the dealer's where a private gun owner is selling his guns, hand him some cash and walk out with the gun.

Fish on...

Todd

Maybe this guy and his manifesto is the domino that knocks so many people over that something has to/will be done.

I know the genie (or perhaps djinn in this discussion) is out of the bottle, but clearly stop selling these weapons to the general public. Stop selling high capacity magazines. Start a buy back and offer market. Do not sell ammo or reloading equipment for these weapons.

What would it take for Dogfish to give up his AR?

Perhaps it wouldn't matter. Some F with a couple of hand guns, and a bunch of clips, a bit of practice could take out as many or not more 3rd graders.

F'it , I am going to get a CWP so I can shoot back. What would you recommend?

People kill People, people will continue to kill people, been that way for thousands of years.

Todd, I understand your feelings about universal backround checks and won't argue that point, BUT how would that have prevented ANY of the recent killings?

and you got it FP.

Todd,

If tough restrictions worked why does Chitcago, NY, DC, Detroit, etc have the highest gun crime/violence? They are the MOST restrictive yet they are always jostling for the dubious title of "murder capital of the U.S. Places with the highest (legal) gun ownership have some of the lowest rates of gun violence.

Help me understand (with facts) how tough restrictions and less firearm ownership in the U.S equals less gun crimes. The evidence doesn't support your assertion.

My assertion is this, and I can't repeat it enough...

Things are going to change. The American people are clamoring for it and they have a sympathetic ear in the White House.

Not wanting things to change, or just saying "more guns is the answer" will do nothing other than disqualify you from participating in whatever the change will be.

That's my assertion. That's also part of the reason why the NRA is marginalizing itself...it can't even agree to a nominal change in gun laws.

There's no way to know what additional background check provisions or a AWB would have done in any of those cases, or if they'd have done anything at all...but that's almost irrelevant compared to the truth that something is going to change, and that change is coming down the tracks as we speak.

If you're not on the train you will either be left at the station (by choosing to not participate at all) or be run over on the tracks like the NRA (by trying to stand in front of the train).

Fish on...

Todd

Todd,

Saying nothing of substance over and over doesn't make it more substantive.

Saying things will change is a cop out, we all know change is inevitable. You'd be more intellectually honest to say you haven't a fu.cking clue what to do and whatever pelosi can pass is what you want also.

Answer the question I asked.

lol.....

Tilting at windmills...

Here's the thing...you guys may have brainwashed by the NRA into believing that anyone who doesn't feel exactly as the NRA does wants to ban all guns, including bb guns, and then react accordingly.

We're not talking about banning any guns here at all...at least I am not.

I am talking about closing the gunshow loophole, and closing it entirely, not in the way the FP is proposing...that exception would just eat up the rule.

Here's the last time...and I'll say it as clearly as possible:

Change is going to come.

Participate in the change and try to make both the change meaningful and the protection of your rights meaningful, too.

Stand in front of the that train and you get exactly what you deserve.

That's what the NRA would have you do...do not sacrifice your rights as a gun owner at the altar of the NRA's puppet masters. If they want to commit suicide, let 'em.

Fish on...

Todd

HOW WOULD CHANGING THE "GUNSHOW LOOPHOLE" HAVE DONE ANYTHING TO PREVENT WHAT HAS HAPPENED?????

That's what I don't understand by your insistence to do something...anything....even if it isn't meaningful, doesn't work and is completely irrelevant.

Todd...your hatred of the NRA is fine but it doesn't mean that doing something, anything or everything is well thought out or effective. It lumps you into the "I don't have a clue" crowd.

Shouldn't we address the issues that might be useful?

The NRA isn't perfect for some and it doesn't do enough for others. They are far more sane than the Brady nuts or cease fire. None of which (except the NRA) have anything meaningful to add to the 'debate'.

Solutions and suggestions are more worthwhile at this point than predictions of inevitable change.

So while I may or may not be behind universal backround checks how does that change ANYTHING?

i liked the idea of a gun offender registry, just like with sex offenders.... wouldnt make it impossible, but its a very good start...

I'm against a "sex offender" registry.

Execution for real sex offenders is the only solution. GUARANTEED!

+ a couple

a liberal wouldn't stand for this.

makes to much sense.

Close the gun show loophole? Does that mean no private gun sales at gun shows or no private gun sales anywhere?

RvW, yes, we should do something that will work.

Short of that, or in service of that, something is going to be done, and soon.

Offering up "more guns!" will not work.

I'm not telling gunowners what they should do, other than tell them that sitting behind the NRA while they say "what we really need to do is relax gun laws!" will get you ignored.

If you have a useful suggestion, now is the time to get it out there...decisions are being made, and fast, and without our input.

Fish on...

Todd

I suspect that the ex cop, shooter isn't crazy. He does seem to have a hell of grudge, perceived or
actual.

I am beginning to understand your problems with the Bar. Just who do you whore for Todd?
I support the NRA. Like all organizations, there are humans in the mix and humans can usually be depended to
have a bit of rot in their organizations.

Define Crazy.
Btw most of the "not guilty by reason of insanity" perps are just listening to their defense lawyer's input.

Legislating generality laws will not fix those idividuals that are damaged and have a grudge or death wish.
Too bad our mental health systems can't adress the problem.

Assimov had an idea. "I Robot"

Illy, as usual you are understanding little about the world, and nothing about me.

I do, however, agree that mental health diagnosis and treatment would go a long way towards improving a ton of things in this country, not just crazy people shooting people.

Fish on...

Todd

Absolutely agree, but maybe they could use a little help in vehicle identification, because that truck doesn't look like a gray Nissan Titan. Close enough though, and why not just light up a truck, in a residential neighborhood. What's the worst that could happen? That house probably made a fine backstop.

I am so Fawking appauled that Police shot up two unidentified subjects in that truck, with obvious excessive force. Looking at the number of holes, they had to have each emptied 1-2 clips of 9 into that truck...
Absolutely Irresponsible
Totally Ridiculous
They should be off the force for good as a threat to the Public, and forced to pay all costs coming to the Taxpayers when these ladies sue the ass off the County.

Looks a little like a spray and pray too... is there a point to shooting the tailgate?

They should be in jail, not just off the force.

Fish on...

Todd

Sorry I joined the conversation a little late, as I was either sleeping, or throwing up yesterday. I much preferred the sleeping.

As to my thoughts on criminals and mental deffectives with guns, you pretty much already know. They shouldn't have them. Finding a way to not trample on an innocent person's right to bear arms, while protecting the public is tricky. It is the way that the process is applied that will determine if it is successful or not. Sadly, .GOV isn't too good at that.

As far as someone wanting to take my firearms without cause, MOLON LABE.

<wiki>The phrase molon labe (Ancient Greek &#956;&#959;&#955;&#8060;&#957; &#955;&#945;&#946;&#941; mol&#333;&#768;n labé; reconstructed Ancient Greek pronunciation [mol&#596;&#720;n labé]; Modern Greek pronunciation [mo&#712;lon la&#712;ve]) means "Come and take". It is a classical expression of defiance reportedly spoken by King Leonidas I in response to the Persian army's demand that the Spartans surrender their weapons at the Battle of Thermopylae. It is an exemplary use of a laconic phrase.

My Bronco is blue. and kind of looks like a pickup. I think I will be walking today . Yeah, I know, they found the truck so no worries. I just walk because I can!

Dogfish, what do you think of the statement regarding AW in this guys manifesto?

A quick reminder about the Vast Left Wing Obama Socialist Kenyan Marxist Conspiracy To Steal Your Guns...

So far, despite the teeth gnashing, and bitchy whining, not to mention self-serving fear mongering from the guns and ammo industry, so far the President has championed one change to gun rights.

That one change?

Expanding gun rights to allow concealed carry in National Parks.

Just a quick reminder to the whiners and fear mongers.

Fish on...

Todd

I'm not going to read this asshole's manifesto. I've seen excerpts of it, and that is enough for me. The guy is a loon. I wish him a slow and particularly violent and painful death. Sorry if he felt wronged, but this is not the way you deal with it. Go out in your back yard, suck start your pistol, and see what happens.

Okay, because I like you, I went back and read the portion of his rant that you posted. Also, I was inviting him to suck start his pistol, not you. Just wanted to be clear on that.

When you purchase an NFA item through a trust there is a background check. It happens during the 6 month process, and then when it comes time to pick up your stamp and NFA item, a 4473 is completed for an "other" item, NICS data is pulled, and you either get a "proceed", or do not. He is misinformed.

As to the creation of an SBR, or SBS, all one really needs is a hacksaw, a vice, and a few minutes and you have a shortbarreled shotgun. To make an SBR, all you need to do is to take an AR-15 pistol upper, toss it on a rifle lower, and voilla', you have an SBR. Give me the parts and I can build a fully functioning semi auto AR-15 SBR in about an hour. Illegal as all get out, but easily done.

I could make just about any rifle into an effective SBR with a hack saw, as long as I left the gas system intact. Doing this will get you 10 years in federal prison, and up to a $250,000 fine.

The instances of legally obtained NFA items being used in a crime are few and far between. One suppressor incident, and one SBR incident, that we came up with in the past 20 years in our research before we proposed legislation covering suppressors and SBR's. You know why? Because good guys will go through the process. Bad guys, well, they are called criminals for a reason.

This is a mentally unstable criminal. I hope they shoot to wound, a lot.

I read the manifesto and concluded that corruption of LAPD is just as likely as this guy being loony. But the ex-cop is way, way out-numbered and probably a bit over the edge mentally.

RVW,

I think Todd knows that the Congressional gun control action is emotion, rather than logic based (in terms of probably reduction in gun murders), but that the momentum has reached critical mass and in now unstoppable. If that premise is correct, it behooves firearm owners and 2nd Amendment supporters to participate in crafting the best possible firearm legislation. That could be described as "damage control" particiipation, because it looks like the "no action" alternative is not on the menu.

Sg

Welcome to the conspiracy, Sg...and I'll note that the opposition to that emotional action is a very emotional reaction...and the writing is on the wall as to which emotional reaction is going to win this round.

Fish on...

Todd

The fact that I am friends with many people here shows that I have poor judgement. Just par for the course. Whats worse is people here like me. Well, some people.

Cool.

There is no loophole on NFA items. A form 5 is completed and they become the next registered owner, or they do through their trust. There is no way to get around the registraion of NFA items. I am merely doing what I can to allow them to use them now, and trying to guarantee their rights to own them in the future.

One can hope they shoot to wound, and that it takes him 5 hours to bleed out. Maybe he'll get hit, and then hole up somewhere and die. Sorry for my lack of compassion, but there are time when none is due.

As to MOLON LABE, the literal translation is "Come and take them."

one article is saying that he may have a .50 cal and a "shoulder fired missile launcher" they suspect...

what i find interesting about this situation, is the recent leak/release of the info about drone strikes on terrorist suspects on American soil...

right now, Dorner isnt a suspect, well, he is, but he is labeled now a terrorist... curious to see if they will use a drone to take him out vs get a bunch of their guys whacked from a mile out....

I'm pretty sure there the leak was about taking members of Al Qaeda, who happen to be Americans, on foreign soil...not drug dealers or psychos here in America.

Fish on...

Todd

true Todd, but they/we have never dealt with something like this that im aware of... yeah, nutcases killing cops, Clemmons, Monfort both were cop killers... but none of them had police training as Dorner has... Dorner also likely has a sh!t ton of weapons, as he stated as well... he knows exactly what the LAPD is going to do, what they are going to use to accomplish to get him, the processes ect... plus, they dont even know where hes at... why send a bunch of your officers into somewhere you dont know, with a guy that could take them out at several hundreds even thousands of yards with that .50, when they could just fly in and hit him if hes in say a cave holed up or something?

this is like a really crazy chess match... whos gonna get stuck in check mate?

That still doesn't turn him into an Al Qaeda member operating on foreign soil, so there will not be any



...because he's not a terrorist, he's not a member of Al Qaeda, and he's not on foreign soil...the three things talked about in the leaked memo.

If you're suggesting that the US Government will go after him based on the information in that leaked memo, then you're wrong.

If you're suggesting that the State of California will go after him with a drone, then that has nothing at all to do with the leaked memo.

Fish on...

Todd

Hopefully he's already frozen to death in an icy stream like that douch who killed the ranger last year.

This reminds me of...

Two trucks killed so far by the LAPD. Both of Asian descent. A third died due to self immolation.

Me thinks the LAPD is racist. Or there is a war on foreign trucks.

Given the evidence to date, there will likely be far more collateral damage in this war of LAPD v Titans, or Tacomas, or whatever Dorner may be driving now. Fear makes the inept just as dangerous as the insane.....

There is Nothing more dangerous than someone or someones who think they have nothing to lose. Whether true or not that they have something to lose, if they THINK they have nothing to lose........look out.

shootout in Big Bear happening now... they arent saying much, even if it was him or not, but they suspect it... i guess he may have been trying to steal a car...

Another truck may die today. Maybe two.

Dory Monson on 97.3 has been playing live feed from it... SH!ts CRAZY..

Think some good thoughts for the officers involved. Hope everybody gets to go home tonight.

Monson just got pranked...

they are saying tho that he is holed up in one of the cabins that they are focusing on..... there is also a "military like presence" around it... they dont know for sure, but they are also saying he may have more than 1 .50 Barrett...

I take exception to that!

i was just saying that he probably did this on purpose, he probably has his stash in or near that cabin that they have surrounded, and he ditched the car there to lure the police to the area....

CNN just reported LAPD said he broke into that cabin 2 days ago....

LAPD/SBSO news conference is starting right this second...

Fish on...

Todd

what was the deal with the one bald guy talking that had the black stripe through his badge, then the guy next to him having a black stipe through his, with a thin blue line in the middle of it?

this is what Dorner was pissed about "the thin blue line" that he "broke" by reporting that another officer kicked that guy, which was the reason he was fired...

the LAPD said there is "no such thing" as the thin blue line... so what did that represent then?

Black stripes on badges are signs of respect and fellowship for downed officers...

Fish on...

Todd

i know that Todd, but whats the deal with the thin blue line in the middle, hang on, ill get a pic...

Is that a moonshot AP?

look at the guys badge on the left... i got a glimpse of the guy on the right earlier, and it looke like his might have been the same...



that blue line means something, and i think its the "thin blue line" that Dorner and alot of people have complained about... its the code of cops that you dont rat out other cops, period... which is corruption at its finest...

Where is Big Bear, Ca? Tried googling

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bear_Lake,_California

one of the wounded officers has died at the hospital...

34.11'12.14" N 116.54'22.91"

the cabin is on fire now and is completely engulfed in flames, ammo is going off, and they still dont know if hes there, or left....

this is crazy stuff....

Left? Like dead? Thats the only way he is getting out of there.

Big Bear, A ski area near Lake Alpine. The Scout Troop I was associated
with used to sno camp there. 8 feet of snow makes it easy to teach
sno-cave construction and igloo building.

this doesnt make sense...

they have said he tried to steal that boat in San Diego, and found his ID near the border crossing there... why on EARTH would he return back to an area thats probably a couple hundredish miles away, that he was already in, that he knows they are looking for him in?

they keep saying sh!t like "we believe its him" "we dont know for sure if hes inside" "he resembles the suspect"

then this one

"we have had no visual contact with him"....

hes not stupid obviously, why would he return, and not actually GO to Mexico, lay low, and come back in say a year and start wackin more cops?

they have been saying for a day or 2 now that they have been "closely monitoring one of his family members by the name of "J.Y."... what were they monitoring? is it HIM they have in the cabin and not Dorner? they cant be 100% sure without visual contact....

also, with the truck burning thing up there, there was guns and night vision inside, only people that dont need it would leave it there...

something isnt right here...

The cabin the pd is talking about is in the San Bernadino Mountains, apparently. The Big Bear/Lake Alpine area is quite a few miles North of
that area.

btw Salmosalacious I read your post. I know you need your strokes. Get
well soon.

guess a body has been pulled from the cabin, and they are saying its him... but not 100% sure...

ill say it again...

no, i dont condone his actions...

but the LAPD created this...

Chuck,

this dude went and fought for our country, came back, and wanted to fight for the community... for the MOST CORRUPT police departement in the god damn country... then they fired him because he said that another cop kicked a suspect... the panel that listened to him, was 1 civillian and 2 cops... 2 LAPD cops... the guy that was kicked, his father said the same sh!t, and that Dorner was telling the truth...

they took what he wanted to do from him, they stole his life from him... even after he went to the ME and fought for them...

a person can only take so much sh!t before they snap, especially if its something they hold dear that was taken from them... or being bullied, or robbed, ect ect ect....

constant pressure will cause you to go nuts, it will consume you, and you will crack...

when they say he took the truck today, a friend of the guy came on, and said that Dorner came out in full camo, heavily armed, and told the guy to "get out of your truck, i do not want to harm you", and took the truck....


wow, that sounds like some hell bent pshyco killer thats killing everyone in his path.... oh yeah, theres also the 2 people he tied up that the one escaped and called that started the gunfight today... why not just shoot them if you are some nutcase murderer killer crazy guy...


the dude was pissed off because his life was taken away, because he was trying to be honest, then, tried to change the way of the LAPD, which aint happening... especially when your a black guy...

you dont think some woman cop would kick a supsect to show that she is a cop and can do what she wants and that she has more power than you do? why would a dude that just got back from fighting for his country, lie about someone fighting for the community?

because he got fvcked, she lied, and the LAPD doesnt want to be a good unit... they never will be...

i was only a matter of time before something like this happened with them, and honestly, im suprised it didnt happen sooner, and more than just this one..

fix it for your mom

your not even paying attention to anything im saying...

i know you cant regulate insanity, or mental illness, if it happens, it happens, and there is nothing you can do to stop it...

everyone that knew him, that has said anything, said he was a cool guy, very submissive and kind.. gentle and respectfull... those are their words, not the news, i heard them on the news but it was them on the phones... everyone said the same thing...

second, im not justifying his actions, i already stated that... i said the LAPD created this horseshit with their corruption and fuvcked up operations... if YOU are condoning them, or stating that they dont exist, well, thats not very smart....


btw, LAPD has now said that the cabin hasnt been entered, and that they have not body.... this is after they said "its over, hes done".... LAPDs finest....

fvck off Jake...

they took his DIGNITY from him... they called him a liar, and fired him...

how many police departments will hire a cop that was fired for lying? especially from the LAPD, the so called "elite" of the police?

3 people including him said that she kicked the dude, she said she didnt...

if she lied, and he was fired because of it... the LAPD created this... stop being so fvckin corrupt and sh!tty to the people in your community that arent of the white race, maybe you will have a better department... stop the drug dealing... stop the "unsolved" murders... stop the lying...

they did this... and frankly, fvck the LAPD, my friends brother was shot by them in crossfire in the 90s.... probably a good idea they moved here....

Mr Dorner seemed to be having a lot of problems with his training officer. It certainly seems plausble that he fabricated the story about the kick to the head. That was the finding the first time around. LAPD is going to reexamin their finding. Lets hope that the citizens don't go nuts, like after the King Verdict. (and what seemed likely if OJ was found Guilty)

Just keep it on account for me FP. I am sure we will be able to find something else to wager on. Something else that we have no control over , perhaps the death toll in the next big earthquake or something?

where am i going Hank?


they all killed everyone that they could in thier paths...

Dorner didnt...

you should spend more time paying attention to what you are sayin


JFC

anybody remember that angel Ted Bundy

Chuck, i dont support him, i already said that, i said i dont condone what he is doing... why would i support killing people?

im saying the LAPD is fvcked up, and they created this mess with their corruption... im suprised it didnt happen sooner...

you arent him Chuck, and he isnt you, we all would have dealt with this differently if we were in his shoes, but we werent... then mental illness comes into play as well... you also arent black, that i know of atleast

none of this would have happened if the LAPD had enough common sense to look into it further when 3-1 said it happened... thats what REAL police departments do... the LAPD could learn a thing or 10 from the SPD, they have their expierience in corruption as well.... and in officer assaults if you havent seen....

if the LAPD wasnt the way they are, this likely never would have happened...

again, im not for his actions, but in this situation im against the LAPD's actions that led to this... i wouldnt even believe a word they said if they said Obama is going to be president for 4 more years...

part of my point Chuck...

you say you would just update and move on...

i will try my best here...

you really enjoy flippin burgers at your local Mc D's, and you witness another worker giving away free food... so you tell your supervisor that you saw it... 1 person said he recieved the food from the person you saw, another person says the same thing...

they fire you for lying... now, when you do resumes, you either leave out an important part in your career, which means you start over, or tell the other companies what you were fired for, in this case, lying about other employees... this doesnt apply in this situation however, because police departments would do checks on him and find out exactly why he was fired, see it was from the LAPD and say, NOPE....

career gone...

so, after going to the ME, and getting shot at, and possibly killing people, and devoting your life to this country, you come back, try to get a job, get called a liar, and your career taken from you...

you might do one thing, i might do another, but the fact is, we arent him, we never fought for this country, have never been shot at by people that really wanted to kill you, and never had what we say "dreamed" of doing taken away from us....


but anyways, yeah, im pretty much done explaining myself... i wont comment on this thread any longer either...

I saw this the other day and laughed my as$ off...


somehow I find it suprisingly appropriate for this thread

I have no trouble believing there is rampant corruption in law enforcement, I have no trouble believing this guy tried to stand up for what he thought was right.........in the face of insurmountable odds. Obviously his actions are not justified, but there is an angle of "give me liberty or give me death". It is obvious that investigations will conclude the LAPD is outstanding in their field. (grain of salt required).

I think RH's restrictor plate fell off somewhere between page 15 and 16.....

a glimpse..............


[size:20pt][/size]

Yup...

Just so you know according to news outlets military record indicates his tour in the ME was a non-combat tour mainly doing underwater work, which I would suspect would be working on the oil platforms since he was based out of Bahrain mostly. Not really a combat zone but has nice per diem.

I see a movie coming.

I agree.



Before the fall season starts, I bet.

Fish on...

Todd

Yer a bit of a prick.

Let R.H, have his opinion.

luvs,
erik

I cant believe it has taken me 9 pages to start reading this drivel ..

you should be ashamed of yourself Capt. Hook..

5 stars! almost to good for a jfc...almost..luckily Chuck saves the day

You, my sir, are a bore also...

thanks for the prompt reply there edikj...

and I aint your sir, buddy. go back to your hole, hook's 'member' is gettin awfully dry...

still a bore

Gawd I love the internet. Thank you Al Gore!

RH means well (I guess) and his theories on this topic, while misguided & semi-psychopathic, have a small, small, small grain of plausibility.

However, victims are gonna be victims. The powers that be are gonna be the powers that be. Two wrongs don't make a right. The only right thing to do is accept that life in unfair; pick yourself up; better yourself in whatever way possible and MOVE ON (which I think Chuck hinted at five pages ago . You beat the system by being better than the system and if that requires a great lawyer - then go that route if you wish. The legal, ethical way. If not, wipe up the milk and MOVE ON! Dorner was too small of a man to grasp this simple concept and now innocent people are dead. Asshats like Dorner are why we can't have nice things.

And that's all I have to say about that. Fight the POWER!

Right on, the movie by fall.
Question is will Dorner be a hero or a victim or just a homocidal nut?

This thread is kinda like a Butthead and Beavis debate. Hilarious.

Redhook, you and the others are all entitled to your opinions. That's
what this country is supposed to be about.

Civil disagreement, what's that?

Sad for the victims. All the victims.

I suspect it will be more along the lines of how a corrupt system tipped over a homicidal nut...bad combination of characters, that.

Fish on...

Todd

since it looks like it's his corpse and this nightmare seems over.

lets get back to the officers who rittled that toyota titan. the cops did a supeb job! would have made yosimity sam proud!

here we have paid profesionals shooting up a truck with 2 womens deliveing newspapers. anyone know whats come of this part of the story?

probably hispanic or black...


...move along (tic)

4 victims lost their lives.

4 dead trucks. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and a Dodge. One demolished house.

My guess is that they wanted him dead, and had no intention on having him survive. "The burners are deployed and we have a fire."

The two ladies in the Toyota are hispanic.

Unless they mean something different than the obvious by "burners" it sure doesn't sound like they had any intention other than turning him into hot wings.

Fish on...

Todd

I believe the 2 newspaper women are "fine". One got struck twice but is recovering and the other was just hit with broken glass. The crazy part is looking at the photo and realizing that only 2 (of the 30?) hit the intended targets. The LAPD has already promised to buy them a new truck (I'm not joking). I suspect these ladies will never delivery another newspaper in their lives and will be getting a healthy check for their troubles. It will be well-deserved IMO. Just look at the photo of the WRONG TRUCK with the WRONG PEOPLE in it that were attacked by the very people sworn to protect them. Disgusting.

Really ? Contradict much ? You would have been a big hit in 1775 colonial America..........with the Brits.

Oregonian - I see the point you are trying to make, but its a BIG stretch to compare a lone wolf killer to our founding fathers. A single idiot does not a movement make. My post was about a normal brained, singular personal responsibility response in our judicial modern era. The brits did not hold sway on a court system anywhere near what we've created since (jury of peers and all that). Hyperbole much? C'mon man...

I'm not about to jump on board "the cops did all they could" ship.
The fkrs shot up [Bleeeeep!] they didn't need to and people in the process. That is unforgivable!! No two ways around it........Stupid fkn thugs is what they proved themselves to be.

Not condoning the perp.......has nothing to do with this bitch. If you can't act responsibly as a cop, you should be in jail. period.

We agree that what this guy did was wrong, I just don't really believe he could have simply appealled or "lawyered up" and got anywhere. I think he would have had to get public opinion on his side first.....and how is one man going to do that on a non-level playing field ?

Understood - but that's why we have a Jury of Peers...to get people on your side should one have an actual case (facts). Killing people, especially cops, may (or may not) make you a cult hero for a short time, but it really kinda hurts your case in court later on (if you can live to get your day in court). Every past injustice flies out the window when you kill a cop and it turns said cops into the "judge, jury and executioner" (which in and of itself is not right). For this particular case, that is why I said two wrongs don't make a right in my first post. No good, on any level nor from any side, can come from how he choose to go about this. There are other ways to be certain. In the end, all I know is that this one is complex and sad for all involved.

Thinking about this one some more...

I'm probably going to get slaughtered on here for saying this and I'm not really sure I'm 100% percent with it (rather just thinking about it)...but...

If Dorner was really innocent and a victim of corruption, maybe he would have been better served to take a cop hostage, fortify and hole up and call the media. He wouldn't have killed anyone (which just kills your case) and could have used the bully pulpit to his advantage to make certain he got his day in court.

Thoughts?

90% of law enforcement cant shoot worth a dam. Ive seen countless times cops at training classes that either couldn't hit there intended target or couldn't operate there weapon(s).
In a Magpul Dynamics Pistol class i took there where 5 cops. 3 out of the 5 where horrible shots and where there just because there department paid for them/made them go. One of the guys consistently had trouble with simple malfunction drills. The other 2 cops couldn't keep a group/consistently hit there target to save there lives. It was BAD!
At shooting ranges around here aswell I've had the privilege of seeing some god awful shooting from LEO.
I got pulled over by Redmond PD a few months back. The guy asked me if i had any guns and i told him yes sir as i handed him my DL and CCW.
The gun was in the center console and he went to the other side to take it out/disarm it. I told him that there wasn't a round chambered and he goes "Ok". Next thing i know as i am watching him clear it he proceeds to pull the slide back to check and chambers a freaking round. He forgot to drop the dam magazine. You could tell just by his demeanor that he was nervous the whole time while handling the gun. He acted like it was some foreign object he's never seen before. I was in amazement. A M&P Compact no less.

That car was riddled with bullet holes. Theres rounds down near the license plate. They riddled other cars down the street and hit the garage. Holy chit, they need more quals/training.
On the other hand I've seen some truly remarkable shooters and fellow friends that are LEO who could take out a fly at 20 yards. They take there training seriously and are constantly taking classes/shooting on there own dime to keep proficient. In this time of budget cuts/ammo shortages cops are going to have to train on there own dime. Its only going to get worse as Departments across the country are suffering from severe ammo shortages where they don't have enough for practice/quals. They need to ask DHS for some of there 4.5 billion Hollow Points that they bought...

Yikes! I just thought it was an internal review dealio (I admit I haven't followed it too closely). I didn't know it made it to court and that he later sued for an appeal and still lost. Nevermind!

I think we could leave race/sex out of the equasion, and presume there is a possibility of corruption...even in the media.

But, I guess he could have just called Jesse Jackson or the like, so I must agree with your point.

Ha ! Maybe someone advised him to "get the big gun", and he took it the wrong way.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess somewhere more than "zero", and "less than two".

At least they didn't torpedo the boat while he was on it, killing him in a fiery explosion, and then kill him again by burning down the cabin he was holed up in with his other ID.

Fish on...

Todd

that would've been cool... then they could just re-release "the Negotiator"

Great movie if you haven't seen it...

I'm sure we could find a few people.

Troll on!

They should have called in a missile strike.

Fish on...

Todd

Sheeeet...it ain't like any of our missile strikes haven't killed folks that weren't on any lists before.

Fish on...

Todd

Should have taken the cops that killed all the wrong people and wrong trucks and strapped 'em w/ IED's and sent them in to get Dorner Paradise-Style.

Fish on...

Todd

Dropping a Hellfire missile from a Predator or Reaper Drone would have worked wonders on Dorner. They also work wonders killing civilians when the Government decides to launch at a "target" in a crowded market/street...

Might be a Ford, not Dodge.