Did anyone see the big pile of dead fish in the Tribal hole on the Elwha? They had not spawned, and there must have been over 20 of them. A guy in a drift boat said the Indians bleached the hole, Anyone know whats up with that?

Tell me its not true!!!

bleached the hole?

I don't think "bleaching" rivers was part of the treaty....?

Diseased fish? I will be looking into this one!!!!!!! The Elwha tribe is governed by the point no point treaty I believe.

[This message has been edited by smilesforu (edited 01-16-2000).]

Can anyone explain bleaching the hole to me. I've never heard of this, but tribal or not sounds ilke it should be treated like a toxic chemical spill.

OK... If they were Chum or old Silvers, then they were probably fish that got caught in the nets that were pretty much dead/not in good shape, and they piled them up on the bank, to die... I've seen this MANY times, although sometimes even with fresh chums, and it's really a hard sight to see, a pile of bright chums just thrown on the beach, cause they don't want to catch them again... Who knows... I did notice a bunch of half dead silvers up in the hatchery creek though, so I know there are some still alive... I think it would be DEFINITELY worth looking into!

Tom

Don't want to sound like a doe head but what is Bleaching???

Please someone more enlightened than many of us tell us what bleaching is...never heard the term.??



------------------
Jim Bain
Always have Fun while Fishing!!!

yes could somone please tell us what bleaching is,never heard of that term,thanks for any info.

FISH ON!!!

I looked at the thread about bleaching. It sounds like there is some confusion about what bleaching is. When I was a kid growing up in UT vandals (for lack of a better word) would pour bleach in small creeks. The bleach basicly removes all of the oxygen from the water so the fish have no way of breathing. The bleach does not ruin the fish, in other words you can still eat them. I can't believe the tribes are using this method on Salmon. One other note about bleaching, the bleach dosn't care if your a Salmon a Trout or a bullhead it kills everything in the water. Unbelievable!
-Bruce Pearson- www.gamefishin.com

Bruce is right. While growing up in the Islands I heard about the bleach horror stories, where divers open up bottles of Clorox into fish-filled caves in the coral reef. The main problem is that the bleach destroys the habitat, i.e. kills the living coral. Likewise, bleach in a river would destroy everything living, including the algae on the rocks. There are unique subsistence fisheries that exist where fish are poisoned in the river and are collected downstream. But the poison only affects fish, not other organisms or living things in their respective ecosystem. I'd be surprised and saddened if Elwha tribal members did this to their own river. Anyone with a stake the Elwha's anadromous resources should realize the short-sightedness of this harvesting method. Dynamiting rates higher.

I found this on another bb and I want to call this guy out.


Let's talk fishin!

Bleaching B.S.

Posted By: Ski
Date: Wednesday, 19 January 2000, at 4:19 p.m.

If I remember right, the guy says that some drift boater on the river told him about bleaching. Drift
boater on the Elwa? I thought there were no boats allowed? That was my clue that the whole story is a
lie. Can you imagine how many 50 gallon drums of bleach it would take to do the job? TOO MANY.


I was only passing on what I heard and wondered if anyone else knew anything.
I dont appreicate being called a lier, and this guy, who goes by SKI, didnt have the guts to post this on this page. So Im callin you out Ski

Don't be to hard on him Joe. Some would like to believe things like that don't happen..It's criminal they do !!! Sure aren't the stewards of our resources any more are they ???

Ok.. You can take a drift boat down the elwah, you are just not allowed to fish from it, or any other floating device... I seriously have a HARD time believing that someone bleached the Elwah, trust me people, This kind of thing happens a lot with the nets down there... They will pull salmon out of the river, and leave them there as to not want to catch them again.. Mainly happens with chums though...

Tom

Hey guys. Remember to keep this all in context. Don't go off half cocked thinking that this bleaching story is in any way truthful. Step back a moment and realize that the whole idea that bleaching occurred was someone's wild guess, on this bulletin board. No one saw or smelled or in any way observed bleaching on the Elwha. This is exactly how lynch mobs started. Someone dreams up a wild story and before you know it, the mobs out looking for the first dark skin they can find to punish as the guilty party.

I moved up here from Oregon a couple of years back and have been amazed at the blatant racism exibited by Washinton state fishermen towards the local tribes.

We and our forebearers kill off most of the fish and wildlife, cut down the forests and destroy enormous tracts of habitat and then we want to blame the lousy fishing on the Indian tribes. Get a grip. And you wonder why we couldn't get more support for the ban on nets. This whole discussion is disgusting.

[This message has been edited by Buddy Page (edited 01-20-2000).]

Buddddy... Buddddy..... Buddddy

I second that...........My God

I agree with you fully Buddy, and I started this topic. My only intrest is the fish, whatever the intrest group, the limited recource must be watched carefully. I own a flyshop and am faced with ignorance and racial BS every day. everyone wants to point a finger at one intrest group, not seeing that all involved are to blame equally. Be it sportfishing, logging, devolopment, native and non-native commercial fishing, face it everytime we flush the toilet we are doing damage. When I see nets, trees cut to the river edge, dead wild fish, poor release practices, or any other activity that hurts the recource it pisses me off, and if there is a question of its legality Im going to speak up. I had no intention of making this a racist issue, I just saw a lot of dead fish, some of them wild, that had no chance to spawn. I got a little mad about sky's posting, I should have cooled off before I started typing.
Joe

Buddy, I don't agree. Most that chimed into this topic were asking what the act of bleaching is. Also, the majority of the others expressed some skepticism over this rumor. Please don't blow this post out of proportion and start using the "R"-word. I will concede, though, that lately anything to do with the Elwhas has produced less-than-charming responses. Hillbilly Redneck please beat on this one too.

gee guys, I had never really heard of bleaching either, but I don`t think I would
want to eat a fish that`s been in bleach,, period..

It's Ok to disagree.

I'll also agree that some of the thread were guys simply curious about what bleaching was. The part that bothered me was the direction the thread was heading, from simply a statement that dead fish were observed to an unsupported leap that bleachig had occurred and that the Elwha tribe was engaged in bleaching and that something should be done about it. And regarding the "R" word, I have to stick by my guns on this one. Just follow this bulletin board and many of its discussions and tell me its not true. Its an ongoing theme here. Sad but true. It's downright embarrassing and it's wrong.

On another note, just think about the absurdity of the whole bleaching discussion. It would take an enormous amount of chemical to bleach a river section and the bleach would carry down the whole river to the ocean. There would be dead fish for miles, not just on the bank in one spot. And why bother bleaching when you can get perfectly good fish in your nets.

Buddy,

I'll admit that in the past a few racist posts have been put up. But you can't identify the whole group, by the actions of few. To prevent people from what they are saying is to prevent free speech. There is no disclaimer that says everyone on this board agrees with everything that is said. And to prevent a discussion, because "you" think it might turn racist! Who are you?? I feel the people should be able to view their opinions. And just because certain topics are of actions that are done(or not done) by members of a ethnic group, these topics shouldn't be avoided, because they might be "racist". Does that mean we shouldn't talk about anything anyone does, except if they are white people? come on

Buddy, picture this scenario: it's mid-November, the peninsula's rivers are low and clear, and the fall kings are just stacked in the deeper holes. Set gillnets are relatively ineffective because of the lack of upriver movement. Also, sweeping the holes would be hard on the gear and laborious. Under these conditions half a dozen bottles of Clorox, at $0.79 per bottle, would be cheap and deadly effective for harvesting these kings. Or how about bleaching a smaller tributary river that hosts a hatchery, like the Wallace or Soos Creek perhaps? Those big kings are already competing for oxygen under those low summer flows. This time it'll take less than six, maybe just three bottles of bleach.

Whew, writing this stuff left a nasty taste in my mouth. Yet, the way I see it is that many steelheaders and salmon fishers have become both stewards and "watchdogs" over our natural resources. By explaining what bleaching is to anglers that were previously ignorant, Bruce and I have capacitated fellow anglers to be able to recognized this illegal activity in the future. The truth of the matter is that bleaching does occur in Washington State's rivers and streams. Thus, writing off bleaching as an "absurdity" is absurd.

"Knowledge is king." - Kool Moe Dee

Good points KORE.

I whole-heartedly agree that topics should not be off limits. No where did I suggest that. I think we just need to be a little more careful about how we frame them and not jump to unfounded conclusions, so readily. That's my belief (opinion).

Once again, Hohwaain, nobody observed or documented bleaching, in this particular instance. Just because its a possiblity or that its easy to do, or that somebody else might have done it, or that it might have happened somewhere else, doesn't mean it occurred here. Why go to such lengths to build up and then defend such a story out of thin air?

It would be easy for any of us to toss an M-80 or bleach into a hole, that doesn't mean that we would actually do it, though.

I admit that this whole bleaching idea is a new one to me too. This discussion has been educational, if nothing else. I just don't believe it happened here. The facts don't support it and I challenge anyone to prove me wrong. Where are the other dead fish?

BUDDY'
I just went through the posts in this topic and the only "unfounded conclusions" I found were posted by you:

1. That this topic was headed towards racist remarks

2. If you don't agree with #1, then your statement that there are unfounded conclusions is an unfounded conclusion.

If you think I'm wrong about #1 because you've seen it happen before and therefore there is some foundation to your conclusion-FINE- then get off of the guys' backs that have also seen what the Indians have done before and therefore have a legitimate reason to suspect them. That is NOT racism.

Another example of an unfounded conclusion is if I were to say I'm sure you'll reply because you seem to be the type that is obssessed with having the last word even if you have to twist around what others have said to suit you. Now that would be an unfounded conclusion.



[This message has been edited by AkBill (edited 01-21-2000).]

So, its OK to generalize that the "Indians have done this before" but not to challenge that the conclusion that it happened here is probably wrong. Hmmm...

By the way, fun little icons we have now...

Buddy, re-read my post, please, especially the part about twisting what people say. Goodbye

Well, this has been fun but I doubt everyone will ever agree on this one. There are just too many entrenched opinions/positions here that aren't going to change and I'm not going to waste any more time bantering with everyone that wants to disagree. Perhaps we can just agree to disagree and get on with fishing discussions. We've all put in our two cents (or 4 or 6 or 8) and this thread has outlived its usefulness.

Besides, I've got to start gearing up for tomorrow. Good luck tomorrow...

Here is the phone # for the Elwha Fisheries Department. 360 457-4012 DIAL AWAY!!!!!

------------------
Marty
www.steelheader.net
marty@steelheader.net

Buddy,

You,ve misconstrued my earlier posts. I did not say, nor did I insinuate that bleaching occurred on the day in question. Also, I'm not defending Joe's story. The aforemention "build up"/example I provided was mainly for your edification, because you expressed disbelief that this act actually occurs.

The ease of using bleach or an M-80 is THE reason poachers use these methods. Why would they care about other creatures suffocating or blowing up, when they don't care about the resources to begin with.

The facts of the case are:
1)Big pile of fish in Tribal Hole on Elwha.
2)Fish had not spawned.
3)Over 20 of them.
4)A guy in a drift boat said the Indians bleached the hole.

If I had nothing else to go on other than the above, then I'd probably surmise that bleaching did occur. Besides, how can you "challenge" anyone, when you didn't even know what bleaching was to begin with?

Hint: the reason why there isn't "dead fish for miles" is because of this cool thing called - diffusion.

i do mean to possibly challenge the apples, and you know who you are red on the outside white on the inside. if you want to go to a smoke house with me , i'm game for it . your are not fishing like you used to and you dont have your salmon medicine seer dreaming about the fish that will allow your tribe to harvest succesfully, so i have no sympathy for whats happening to your way at this time because we were all sold an idea of wanting to own what we can see and everyone fell into it, even your ancestors, my red friends lets deal with what we have to go with now and get real. I very much understand your medicines and chilaquita/smokehouse i understand the nature of things. dont forget it is all round. creator made everything round to show us by example that balance has to be there and always will with or without our human intervention.
primeprawns@hotmail.com

Please disregard my last post. Started it before you (Buddy) agreed to end it. No parting shot intended.

Peace Out....