gee guys, I had never really heard of bleaching either, but I don`t think I would
want to eat a fish that`s been in bleach,, period..

It's Ok to disagree.

I'll also agree that some of the thread were guys simply curious about what bleaching was. The part that bothered me was the direction the thread was heading, from simply a statement that dead fish were observed to an unsupported leap that bleachig had occurred and that the Elwha tribe was engaged in bleaching and that something should be done about it. And regarding the "R" word, I have to stick by my guns on this one. Just follow this bulletin board and many of its discussions and tell me its not true. Its an ongoing theme here. Sad but true. It's downright embarrassing and it's wrong.

On another note, just think about the absurdity of the whole bleaching discussion. It would take an enormous amount of chemical to bleach a river section and the bleach would carry down the whole river to the ocean. There would be dead fish for miles, not just on the bank in one spot. And why bother bleaching when you can get perfectly good fish in your nets.

Buddy,

I'll admit that in the past a few racist posts have been put up. But you can't identify the whole group, by the actions of few. To prevent people from what they are saying is to prevent free speech. There is no disclaimer that says everyone on this board agrees with everything that is said. And to prevent a discussion, because "you" think it might turn racist! Who are you?? I feel the people should be able to view their opinions. And just because certain topics are of actions that are done(or not done) by members of a ethnic group, these topics shouldn't be avoided, because they might be "racist". Does that mean we shouldn't talk about anything anyone does, except if they are white people? come on

Buddy, picture this scenario: it's mid-November, the peninsula's rivers are low and clear, and the fall kings are just stacked in the deeper holes. Set gillnets are relatively ineffective because of the lack of upriver movement. Also, sweeping the holes would be hard on the gear and laborious. Under these conditions half a dozen bottles of Clorox, at $0.79 per bottle, would be cheap and deadly effective for harvesting these kings. Or how about bleaching a smaller tributary river that hosts a hatchery, like the Wallace or Soos Creek perhaps? Those big kings are already competing for oxygen under those low summer flows. This time it'll take less than six, maybe just three bottles of bleach.

Whew, writing this stuff left a nasty taste in my mouth. Yet, the way I see it is that many steelheaders and salmon fishers have become both stewards and "watchdogs" over our natural resources. By explaining what bleaching is to anglers that were previously ignorant, Bruce and I have capacitated fellow anglers to be able to recognized this illegal activity in the future. The truth of the matter is that bleaching does occur in Washington State's rivers and streams. Thus, writing off bleaching as an "absurdity" is absurd.

"Knowledge is king." - Kool Moe Dee

Good points KORE.

I whole-heartedly agree that topics should not be off limits. No where did I suggest that. I think we just need to be a little more careful about how we frame them and not jump to unfounded conclusions, so readily. That's my belief (opinion).

Once again, Hohwaain, nobody observed or documented bleaching, in this particular instance. Just because its a possiblity or that its easy to do, or that somebody else might have done it, or that it might have happened somewhere else, doesn't mean it occurred here. Why go to such lengths to build up and then defend such a story out of thin air?

It would be easy for any of us to toss an M-80 or bleach into a hole, that doesn't mean that we would actually do it, though.

I admit that this whole bleaching idea is a new one to me too. This discussion has been educational, if nothing else. I just don't believe it happened here. The facts don't support it and I challenge anyone to prove me wrong. Where are the other dead fish?

BUDDY'
I just went through the posts in this topic and the only "unfounded conclusions" I found were posted by you:

1. That this topic was headed towards racist remarks

2. If you don't agree with #1, then your statement that there are unfounded conclusions is an unfounded conclusion.

If you think I'm wrong about #1 because you've seen it happen before and therefore there is some foundation to your conclusion-FINE- then get off of the guys' backs that have also seen what the Indians have done before and therefore have a legitimate reason to suspect them. That is NOT racism.

Another example of an unfounded conclusion is if I were to say I'm sure you'll reply because you seem to be the type that is obssessed with having the last word even if you have to twist around what others have said to suit you. Now that would be an unfounded conclusion.



[This message has been edited by AkBill (edited 01-21-2000).]

So, its OK to generalize that the "Indians have done this before" but not to challenge that the conclusion that it happened here is probably wrong. Hmmm...

By the way, fun little icons we have now...

Buddy, re-read my post, please, especially the part about twisting what people say. Goodbye

Well, this has been fun but I doubt everyone will ever agree on this one. There are just too many entrenched opinions/positions here that aren't going to change and I'm not going to waste any more time bantering with everyone that wants to disagree. Perhaps we can just agree to disagree and get on with fishing discussions. We've all put in our two cents (or 4 or 6 or 8) and this thread has outlived its usefulness.

Besides, I've got to start gearing up for tomorrow. Good luck tomorrow...

Here is the phone # for the Elwha Fisheries Department. 360 457-4012 DIAL AWAY!!!!!

------------------
Marty
www.steelheader.net
marty@steelheader.net

Buddy,

You,ve misconstrued my earlier posts. I did not say, nor did I insinuate that bleaching occurred on the day in question. Also, I'm not defending Joe's story. The aforemention "build up"/example I provided was mainly for your edification, because you expressed disbelief that this act actually occurs.

The ease of using bleach or an M-80 is THE reason poachers use these methods. Why would they care about other creatures suffocating or blowing up, when they don't care about the resources to begin with.

The facts of the case are:
1)Big pile of fish in Tribal Hole on Elwha.
2)Fish had not spawned.
3)Over 20 of them.
4)A guy in a drift boat said the Indians bleached the hole.

If I had nothing else to go on other than the above, then I'd probably surmise that bleaching did occur. Besides, how can you "challenge" anyone, when you didn't even know what bleaching was to begin with?

Hint: the reason why there isn't "dead fish for miles" is because of this cool thing called - diffusion.

i do mean to possibly challenge the apples, and you know who you are red on the outside white on the inside. if you want to go to a smoke house with me , i'm game for it . your are not fishing like you used to and you dont have your salmon medicine seer dreaming about the fish that will allow your tribe to harvest succesfully, so i have no sympathy for whats happening to your way at this time because we were all sold an idea of wanting to own what we can see and everyone fell into it, even your ancestors, my red friends lets deal with what we have to go with now and get real. I very much understand your medicines and chilaquita/smokehouse i understand the nature of things. dont forget it is all round. creator made everything round to show us by example that balance has to be there and always will with or without our human intervention.
primeprawns@hotmail.com

Please disregard my last post. Started it before you (Buddy) agreed to end it. No parting shot intended.

Peace Out....