I am wondering about perspective here. Do people believe that the abuses of Tribal fishing rights are to blame for declining fisheries? There certainly are abuses, under reporting, etc., but I'm not convinced that this is the reason our runs are declining on all or even most rivers.

One poster cited nets across the Columbia R. The dams are the primary reason for the monumental declines on the Columbia basin. Period.

Another cited large runs on the Skokomish R. I do not believe large runs of steelhead will consistently occur on a river that floods year after year after year like the Skoke. I also do not believe that all those people who get flooded out every November would have built there in the first place if historically, the river didn't maintain a reasonable floodplain. Logging and agriculture has filled this river in such that nothing can spawn there and there's no place for the water to go but over the banks.

Several noted wastage. This is a shame and a PR problem, but not a direct cause of declining runs. I think its the Indians business if they want to sell only the row. Commercial herring fisheries do this all of the time. I do wish the Indians would make more of an effort to donate edible carcasses to food banks and sell the rest to fish meal plants. Or if this isn't feasible, at least throw the carcasses back in the river where their nutrients can benefit young salmon.

As far as being an American goes, unless people want to weaken the Constitution, we can't go around dropping laws just because we don't like them. Bottom line is that the Indians were here, the rest of us immigrated, and non-Indians made legally binding agreements for the land. I'm afraid it does make a difference. As far as being a conquered nation, again, take this argument to the Feds. There are lots of ways to conquer people (just look at the news), the way things turned out was the decision of the Federal Government and we just can't say...oops this isn't working so we're going to unilaterally change this.

I do agree with some of the arguments that greater scrutiny is needed to monitor both catch and wastage. Human nature dictates that if we can get away with something, we'll continue to do it. No different with Tribal fisheries. In the long run I think greater monitoring will benefit both the Tribes, who are contantly bombarded by groups who oppose them, and of course the fisheries, which would benefit by greater escapement.

This piss, moan, and bash session is truly futile and unproductive. Tribes and non-Indians have to work around the Treaties because they're not going anywhere. Treaty rights have to be treated like a commodity; the Indians have this commodity, how can it be used to the benefit of all parties and the resource. And before anyone says the Indians won't have anything to do with this, look at the Quinault--a trophy steelhead stream where the Indians make more guiding than fishing, and anglers have the best chance at catching true trophies.

Myst, if you knew this B.B. you would know riverside logging, chemical fertilizers, ect. were major bitches. Yes we had opportunities like the "indians", but we are smart enough to give up some rights when there were obvious problems.
Obsessed, as far as dropping laws because we don't like them, i'm glad it's no longer legal to walk around with two six shooters on your belt.

I have been a timber faller for 20 yrs and I know we take all the percations to avoid slides in streams.I havent cut a tree within 1000 ft of any stream in 15 yrs.and never even remotely close to any large rivers.Things are handled totaly different then in the past. If logging was the problem there wouldnt be a fish left on the oly. pen. That country has been hammered by the timber industry for years.I know it might have some affect but everyone still lives in wood houses even the people that bitch about timber harvesting. That is my opinion

Obsessed--

You write"Dams are the reason for the destruction of the Columbia Basin salmon runs.Period" Well, this may be an indian bitch session, but commercial overharvest, and indian overharvest are the reason for the decline.PERIOD.

If history repeats itself no one will be "catching" salmon at some point in the future. Just look to the plight of the NW sea otter (extinct) or the grey whale ( no longer commerically harvested). As much as I am obsessed with fishing I think everyone should stop fishing for 5 to 10 years for two reasons: 1. To let the fish populations recover and 2. To come up with some sort of semi-equitable way to divide up the resource.

Fish populations have declined for the last 150 years with that in mind can we really say that any of the "protective" measures we have taken as a society or individually have or will make a difference. I am not pessimistic by nature, but am starting to wonder if we have reached or passed "the point of no return" concerning native salmon and steelhead extinction. I don't think so, but it might be getting close. Just a thought

Boy.... sure ruffled some feathers here.

hey LoomisMan, check this out. http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000850.html I hope you don't think this is a one of a kind situation.

Corky

So am I. The fact that 2 guns on your belt is illegal for ordinary citizens is an example of how laws change with the cultural landscape. The Constitution is full of ammendments that changed law when it was time. Time being defined as the public majority thinking something needed to be changed. It will take a public majority followed by a Federal action to change Tribal Treaty rights. Not that it can't happen; it just isn't likely.

Loomisman

Just like netting, logging has caused affects to some streams and not to others. Given the health of the coastal streams, I guess I'd agree with you--but different story on Deer Creek, a tributary of the North Fork Stillaguamish River. The Deer Creek summer-run steelhead is one of the only wild summer-runs in Puget Sound streams with populations large enough to fish. Greats like George McCloude and Zane Grey fished these legendary fish. This run was decimated by logging practices such that the lower river is fishable less than 50 percent of the time due to slides and runnoff creating visibilities of less than a foot. The causes of decline has been well documented on this stream.

What bothers me about topics like this one is that people don't seem to realize or care that nets aren't the only problem. Even when people acknowledge other activities contribute to declines, the subsequent rants on treaties and nets makes it all too clear who people think is responsible. This gets us nowhere.

Corky: I speak for myself and what my timber company does.....I dont agree with all Company's and there practices, there is plenty of timber out there they dont have to cut whats on a stream or river...The thing that gets me is everyone on this BB lives in a WOOD house yet they bitch!!!!!Go figure

loomisman, I think everyone on this B.B. is only bitching about poor logging practices close to rivers and streams. I know there are companies like yours that comply with the law. Too bad all of them can't.

corky:I totaly agree with that .Even being part of the timber industry.I've watched all of my family except myself go unemployed and have to find a job to support there family's I'm not bitter about that that is just part of change.

Come on fellas, We do have a choice. Your glass can either be half full or half empty. I choose the former. Enjoy what opportunities we do have while we still have them. I vote for the STOPLIGHT Bob.

Hey guys, Yahoo here. Well it looks like i have created a monster on this indian thing Hmmmmm. I have been reading all the replies and do agree with most(the obvious ones) and others are just the problem liberal attitudes that have ruined our great fisherie we used to have BEFORE THE BOLDT DECISION. Get a clue you liberal ones, our fishing in this state was doing just fine in the late 60s and early 70s with all the hatcheries and such. Now all i have seen since is every four years it just keeps getting worse and worse. Now i am sure that the floods and such are not helping, but i cant do anything about floods and for that matter i cant do much about our so called native americans either. But I will tell you one thing i can sure bitch about it or if the sun ever shines again i can VOTE ON IT!!!!

Yes logging is happening allover the peninsula, but one thing we need to look at is the fish have a nice cozy ecosystem that hasn't and will not change. This place is called Olympic National Park, A great place to pass on thier genes.
People blame tribal nets for the decline on the Humptulips,that is far from the truth.The last that I talked to someone thier was only person fishing this river.
Take a drive up Donkey Creek Road or The Promised Land. I think this will give everyone a clue to why the Humptulips sister rivers to the north are doing so much better,they have the Park to spawn in. It is kind of hard to spawn in the light brown muck caused by corporate greed. Logging companies have known for years before any of us were born what they were doing to the fish. Shake mills would fill in the tributaries with cedar waste. A person could go on and on about the things our fathers and grandfathers did to help the cause and yes my relatives were part of this. I have lived on the peninsula all my life and I talk to the oldtimers and they feel very guilty. Historically the natives got to fish very little,look up some history that is why we have a thing called the Bolt decision. So I dont think tribal netting is an issue here just another excuse in the long list. Yes our grandfathers also built a pyramid to the gods called a DAM. But we must remenmber that dams are not a pyramid and they can and will be torn down. The baby boomers are not going to be running the show in WASH D.C. forever,and Slade Gorton will be gone soon, and we will say that Slade guy he saved the Mariners but he couldent save the salmon.
Thank You

Sniveks.

You won't last long on this B.B. posting like that.

It seems to me that Oregon bought the fishing rights from the Indians. The way things look they are happy making money at there casinos. Can not anyone think of a fair trade that will make us all happy. set them up with fish farms and buy the fish from them. This may work

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dank

Please Sniveks refrain from using your 3 word vocabulary, and stop being offensive. I agree with Duck in Fog, you will get wasted. Please stick to the subject, and if you veer off, please don't be offensive.

[This message has been edited by Gutt'n Fish (edited 03-09-2000).]

I've read some good books lately.The author is Roderick Haig-Brown. He was an avid fisherman/conservationalist. Some of the books were published in the 1940's.He wrote about the declining salmon runs back then.

Hillbilly Redneck,
Glad to hear that folks are still discovering Haig-Brown. There were people in his day, and even before (Aldo Leopold for instance), who were aware of the damage being done to our environment in the name of profit. I read an article by Lois Crisler, (the wife of Herb Crisler who spent years wandering the Olympics and shot most of the footage for Disney's "The Olympic Elk")published in 1955, detailing the damage that was being done to watersheds all over the Olympics even then. Jim Lichatowich's book "Salmon Without Rivers" has, deservedly, received a lot of attention lately but I haven't heard anyone mention Bruce Brown's "Mountain in the Clouds" which covered a lot of the same ground almost twenty years ago. And guess what? The situation has gotten one hell of a lot worse. Enough venting, I hope you will enjoy Haig-Brown's work as much as I have over many years.

I think I have learned more about fishing from Haig-Brown than any other fishing related books I've read.Recommended reading for anyone who enjoys fishing.