Hey guys, Yahoo here. Well I am noticing a little indian bulletin board activity going on lately, I just love telling the truth about our indians, so here goes. The state keeps on restricting the sportsmans fishing while the indians keep on netting, now I know its their right, but cmon, give me a brake. I know how they work, their are indians i know that will tell you right to your face how bad their cheating. They NEVER report their TRUE CATCH nor do they report their incidental catch accurately. One example is the hood canal shrimp, it used to be a long season with big limits for the billions of shrimp that are in the canal, well that has all changed now because the indians a few years ago went hey, we get 50% of all harvestable shellfish, so in turn the state nails the rest of the population and restricts us to two weekends with restrictions up the ASS. Now, these same indians will tell you how bad they cheat on their shrimp numbers, its even worse than the salmon thing. Now the indians are going after the crab and have put a serious dent in the hood canal population, enough that the state is now thinking of a crab punchcard, give me a break. Now dont forget the clams, oysters, sea cucumbers, and anything else they can get their hands on!!!! Man am I venting. The other thing that drives me crazy is the state says hey, lets close the crap out of everything but dont disturb those nets in the river. That has got to be the most stupid thing that I have ever heard, It doesnt even take any skill to gill net big king salmon all day long, the least you could do is give em spears and canoes, now thats TRADITIONAL. So just remember one thing ITS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE!!!!!!!

I agree I live on the Hood Canal and it is rediculous!!!They have ruined this body of water.The Skok use to be full of steelhead all gone now but a few.They come in and stretch there nets all over for the salmon it looks like a maze at an amusment park.But it isnt amusing to me them@#%$%#$$@$%@%@$#$#%@%@%@%@%@$###@@$$!%%#I have had enough!!!!!They act like they own the place(well the gov.makes them think they do)It will never change until all the fish,crabs,whales,clams ext.are all gone!!!!!I get so pissed it is hard to control myself!

How about callin' in the National Guard?

I have only been involved in this page for a few months. I have noticed most of the posts are bitch sessions. I have a question for you all...How many of you really know and/or understand the tribal positions? How many of you know really know and understand their legal rights concerning fish and shellfish?

I have experienced gross examples of wasted salmon by tribal gillnetters. I have also experienced gross examples of illegal snagging on the Cowlitz, egg stripped coho carcases on the Satsop, and wild coho and wild chinook being illegally retained out of Illwaco, not to mention undersized sturgeon being filleted on the Columbia. How can we bitch when this is going on in our own user group? Mabey it is just a small percentage of sportfishers that don't follow the rules and mabey it is a small percent of the tribal fishers that are wasteful.

If we are going to bitch and moan about the tribal fishery we had better make sure that we are not hypocritical. I commit to you that I will never kill a non-clipped steelhead, illegally snag a salmon, or waste a single fish that I catch.

I am involved in a broodstock program and intend to get more involved by giving of myself by getting involved in restoration. I intend to get my hands dirty, not just get a blister on my hunt and peck finger!

paranoid1-So I guess you are trying to say you think all of us are poachers but you huh!!Get a grip you arent the only one that knows what goes on!

[This message has been edited by LoomisMan (edited 03-07-2000).]

Come on Loomis, it's no new idea that you'll get a hell of a lot more done by getting in and helping then you will by standing on the sidelines bitching. It's the american ideal, get in and do something instead of sitting around complaining.

And what instead of bitching about indian overharvest, can we do? Nothing. I am sorry, but when it comes to gillnets, the treaties, there is nothing that can be done to remove them. Bitching is the only thing left. The federal government upholds treaties. If there is any thing legal I can do that can help get the gillnets out of the rivers....someone tell me. Or I guess I'll keep bitching also. And comparing poachers to indians..come-on, I don't agree with poachers, but they don't takes nets and nets worth of fish in a day.--mike

There is nothing that can be done about the nets.Other then a bail of straw!

fill in the blanck

COWBOYS and _______, we won't make the same mistake 2x Go ahead and continue slaughtering the game and fish. it is getting close to getting out of control. the wrong dude with his gun is going to cap one of them when his fish gets tangled in their nets and he can't get it back. it's just a matter of time.


dcrzfitter

All treaties with nat-americans are bull____.
nat-americans,afro-americans,mex-americans its all bull____. How about AMERICANS... PERIOD... Its time we all got equal rights, PERIOD...Indian's say its to keep there history and traditions alive... BULL____.Everybody (all races)have history and tradition, you dont see me running around in laterhossen do you? NO! Do you see black fokes living in grass huts... NO! Why... because thats not the way things are done any more PERIOD... Indian treaties got to go!!! things are not done that way anymore PERIOD... WE are all one, WE are all AMERICANS (for the last time) PERIOD.

Hmm... let me think about this..The indians have been catching salmon here for at least 7000years..when the white guys got here you could walk across the river on the salmon(lots of them)...150 years latter the salmon are going extinct... and the white guys are pissed at the indians for catching salmon...hmmm...

NETTING FISH!!!!!What a joke I dont give a s--- how long they have been here they are a conquered nation.Why should they be able to do something I cant do. What happened to equal rights.What a bunch of crap!When all the fish and game are gone all the bone heads that thinks it was there RIGHT will be asking themselvesI can't understand what happened? Dan M quit walkin around with your eyes closed!

[This message has been edited by LoomisMan (edited 03-07-2000).]

It sounds like what bothers some of you "sports"men is seeing over-fishing by "Indians" using gillnets. The fish are dwindling, then the government imposes shorter amounts of time and higher cost for nonIndian fishing. This treaty allows the "Indians" to over fish, they won't stop and they waste a lot. Because of this treaty, there is no solution so "sports"men get even by throwing straw bales into the nets, bitch about them together, and one psycho even wants to play cowboys and indians and is threatening bodily harm!

When are you going to take responsibility for your own actions or lack of them?

Why are you not bitching about creek and riverside logging and clear-cutting that creates flooding just in time for spawning? How come you don't threaten farmer Jones who lets his cows poop in the river and uses chemical fertilizer that kills the fish. Why is it okay for your neighbor to let his car graveyard "fluids" and septic system leak into the river. Why don't you bitch at and turn in the guy you see snagging on the river every day (because he is on disability and doesn't have to work), isn't he the same guy that brags about taking undersized and illegal fish? Why did it take so long to notice how many fish commercial fishermen take out (and of course, how they all report their catch count so honestly)and how many dams do we have now?

We nonIndians have had the same opportunities as the treaty affords the "Indians" and have done the same things we are accusing "Indians" of doing and unfortunately, if given the same opportunity today, there would be a lot of us doing the same thing the "Indians" are doing! Could it be that the concern is not for the dwindling supply of fish but who gets to catch them before they are all gone?

Myst has a good point. Netting is tough to watch in these times of reduced returns. But, we non-native americans should shoulder the blame for the many urban, agriculture, forestry, hydrology (dams, irrigation) and commercial harvest effects that we imposed on the fish. We do more than our share of damage to the resource. So, it seems a bit hypocritical for us to be laying this issue soley at the indian netting program when our landuse activities impose widespread detriment. I guess it is just easier to point to others as the problem... but, it is really a chicken &^$#@! way to approach the issue. Unfortuantely, that is the Northwest way of handling salmon restoration... pass the buck. What a bunch of wimps.

I agree with most of us ,we are all to blame....Why do we single out the tribes?The blatent waste.... all the chum carcsess all over our banks and beaches just for eggs the males left to rot so the lazy bastard doesn't have to catch it again.they do over fish ,talk about tradition build your net out of cedar bark and use a dugout canoe,I call that tradition,drive threw the local res. and tell about all the cars and trucks on blocks.....PLEASE!!!! call that tradition I call it WASTE.All this bitching and moaning is a waste too ....Go Fish

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Tight Lines
FISH ON ------<*)>><
Men are like fish we get into trouble when we open our mouths to much!!

[This message has been edited by Steelheader boy (edited 03-08-2000).]

I agree with Jim Marquis, sorry Loomis
I did some History on DCRZFITTER and read some of your posts back when you first started, in April, The posts I read where in May and they were disturbing, you sounded like a skinhead bred with a militia man.
You have a point, but, It is up to you to come across like you care about the issue instead of talking about lynch mobs and community hangings. Please learn to spell
and how to get your point across without offending half these people in one day.

please don't clog up the BB with nasty replies, I'm just stating the facts. Please stick to the issue.

[This message has been edited by Gutt'n Fish (edited 03-08-2000).]

Gutt'n fish:1- I never made a racial comment 2- You made the comment how would you now if I drink or not you dont even know me..So if you are gonna come on here and make statements about people make sure you know them first!!!If not put a sock in it..

[This message has been edited by LoomisMan (edited 03-08-2000).]

Dan M--

The indians have been catching salmon for a REALLY long time, true. But up until the last 50 years they did it with spears, canoes made of hollowed out trees, dip nets, and yes, nets(made out of woven bark) that they put out fairly close to shore. Now, indians have boats made by Alumaweld, nets made of monofilament, and cases upon cases of beer. Their nets are hundreds of yards long, and placed in the river just hundreds of feet apart for miles(at least on the lower Columbia). Tradition? MY ASS!! Subsistence? WHAT A JOKE!! If indians want to continue to rape the resource in this manner, fine. But, call a spade a spade. The excuses they use for what they do are a joke. At least hold a press conference for all the media to see, and admit the real reasons they do what they do. Indians use to catch lots of fish and smoke it to feed their families thru the winter. Now, they catch thousands of fish(salmon and steelhead), gut them for their eggs(because they get a great price for them), and leave the carcasses in huge piles along the river. They sell them for 2 bucks a pound along every major highway, for what? Give me a break! Indians should have the right to do what they have done for thousands of years, I agree. What indians do now is not what they did for thousands of years. I'm sure many a tribal elder from hundreds of years ago have rolled over and over in their sacred burial ground watching what today's indians do. So don't defend today's indian by saying it is their right from the past.

I believe most of the people that are posting are very bright but for some reason they can't comprehend that pointing fingers will NEVER< NEVER< NEVER be the answer. As soon as they figure out it DOESN'T MATTER WHO THE BLAME IS. That working together is the only correct answer. If it's broken than try to fix it. Not try to figure out who broke it. Jim Marquis

Part of repairing something is to understand what happened. And part of understanding what happened is in who did what to cause our salmon crisis. To focus on what type of gear is being used by the indians and ignore the many other much larger negative factors working against salmon is absurd. I don't like egg stripping, but that's the free market and is done by non idians on a much large scale. I don't hear the shouting about that. Look at it this way ,when there were 15 million kings coming back to the Columbia were the white people griping about indian fish traps. I don't think so.

I am wondering about perspective here. Do people believe that the abuses of Tribal fishing rights are to blame for declining fisheries? There certainly are abuses, under reporting, etc., but I'm not convinced that this is the reason our runs are declining on all or even most rivers.

One poster cited nets across the Columbia R. The dams are the primary reason for the monumental declines on the Columbia basin. Period.

Another cited large runs on the Skokomish R. I do not believe large runs of steelhead will consistently occur on a river that floods year after year after year like the Skoke. I also do not believe that all those people who get flooded out every November would have built there in the first place if historically, the river didn't maintain a reasonable floodplain. Logging and agriculture has filled this river in such that nothing can spawn there and there's no place for the water to go but over the banks.

Several noted wastage. This is a shame and a PR problem, but not a direct cause of declining runs. I think its the Indians business if they want to sell only the row. Commercial herring fisheries do this all of the time. I do wish the Indians would make more of an effort to donate edible carcasses to food banks and sell the rest to fish meal plants. Or if this isn't feasible, at least throw the carcasses back in the river where their nutrients can benefit young salmon.

As far as being an American goes, unless people want to weaken the Constitution, we can't go around dropping laws just because we don't like them. Bottom line is that the Indians were here, the rest of us immigrated, and non-Indians made legally binding agreements for the land. I'm afraid it does make a difference. As far as being a conquered nation, again, take this argument to the Feds. There are lots of ways to conquer people (just look at the news), the way things turned out was the decision of the Federal Government and we just can't say...oops this isn't working so we're going to unilaterally change this.

I do agree with some of the arguments that greater scrutiny is needed to monitor both catch and wastage. Human nature dictates that if we can get away with something, we'll continue to do it. No different with Tribal fisheries. In the long run I think greater monitoring will benefit both the Tribes, who are contantly bombarded by groups who oppose them, and of course the fisheries, which would benefit by greater escapement.

This piss, moan, and bash session is truly futile and unproductive. Tribes and non-Indians have to work around the Treaties because they're not going anywhere. Treaty rights have to be treated like a commodity; the Indians have this commodity, how can it be used to the benefit of all parties and the resource. And before anyone says the Indians won't have anything to do with this, look at the Quinault--a trophy steelhead stream where the Indians make more guiding than fishing, and anglers have the best chance at catching true trophies.

Myst, if you knew this B.B. you would know riverside logging, chemical fertilizers, ect. were major bitches. Yes we had opportunities like the "indians", but we are smart enough to give up some rights when there were obvious problems.
Obsessed, as far as dropping laws because we don't like them, i'm glad it's no longer legal to walk around with two six shooters on your belt.

I have been a timber faller for 20 yrs and I know we take all the percations to avoid slides in streams.I havent cut a tree within 1000 ft of any stream in 15 yrs.and never even remotely close to any large rivers.Things are handled totaly different then in the past. If logging was the problem there wouldnt be a fish left on the oly. pen. That country has been hammered by the timber industry for years.I know it might have some affect but everyone still lives in wood houses even the people that bitch about timber harvesting. That is my opinion

Obsessed--

You write"Dams are the reason for the destruction of the Columbia Basin salmon runs.Period" Well, this may be an indian bitch session, but commercial overharvest, and indian overharvest are the reason for the decline.PERIOD.

If history repeats itself no one will be "catching" salmon at some point in the future. Just look to the plight of the NW sea otter (extinct) or the grey whale ( no longer commerically harvested). As much as I am obsessed with fishing I think everyone should stop fishing for 5 to 10 years for two reasons: 1. To let the fish populations recover and 2. To come up with some sort of semi-equitable way to divide up the resource.

Fish populations have declined for the last 150 years with that in mind can we really say that any of the "protective" measures we have taken as a society or individually have or will make a difference. I am not pessimistic by nature, but am starting to wonder if we have reached or passed "the point of no return" concerning native salmon and steelhead extinction. I don't think so, but it might be getting close. Just a thought

Boy.... sure ruffled some feathers here.

hey LoomisMan, check this out. http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000850.html I hope you don't think this is a one of a kind situation.

Corky

So am I. The fact that 2 guns on your belt is illegal for ordinary citizens is an example of how laws change with the cultural landscape. The Constitution is full of ammendments that changed law when it was time. Time being defined as the public majority thinking something needed to be changed. It will take a public majority followed by a Federal action to change Tribal Treaty rights. Not that it can't happen; it just isn't likely.

Loomisman

Just like netting, logging has caused affects to some streams and not to others. Given the health of the coastal streams, I guess I'd agree with you--but different story on Deer Creek, a tributary of the North Fork Stillaguamish River. The Deer Creek summer-run steelhead is one of the only wild summer-runs in Puget Sound streams with populations large enough to fish. Greats like George McCloude and Zane Grey fished these legendary fish. This run was decimated by logging practices such that the lower river is fishable less than 50 percent of the time due to slides and runnoff creating visibilities of less than a foot. The causes of decline has been well documented on this stream.

What bothers me about topics like this one is that people don't seem to realize or care that nets aren't the only problem. Even when people acknowledge other activities contribute to declines, the subsequent rants on treaties and nets makes it all too clear who people think is responsible. This gets us nowhere.

Corky: I speak for myself and what my timber company does.....I dont agree with all Company's and there practices, there is plenty of timber out there they dont have to cut whats on a stream or river...The thing that gets me is everyone on this BB lives in a WOOD house yet they bitch!!!!!Go figure

loomisman, I think everyone on this B.B. is only bitching about poor logging practices close to rivers and streams. I know there are companies like yours that comply with the law. Too bad all of them can't.

corky:I totaly agree with that .Even being part of the timber industry.I've watched all of my family except myself go unemployed and have to find a job to support there family's I'm not bitter about that that is just part of change.

Come on fellas, We do have a choice. Your glass can either be half full or half empty. I choose the former. Enjoy what opportunities we do have while we still have them. I vote for the STOPLIGHT Bob.

Hey guys, Yahoo here. Well it looks like i have created a monster on this indian thing Hmmmmm. I have been reading all the replies and do agree with most(the obvious ones) and others are just the problem liberal attitudes that have ruined our great fisherie we used to have BEFORE THE BOLDT DECISION. Get a clue you liberal ones, our fishing in this state was doing just fine in the late 60s and early 70s with all the hatcheries and such. Now all i have seen since is every four years it just keeps getting worse and worse. Now i am sure that the floods and such are not helping, but i cant do anything about floods and for that matter i cant do much about our so called native americans either. But I will tell you one thing i can sure bitch about it or if the sun ever shines again i can VOTE ON IT!!!!

Yes logging is happening allover the peninsula, but one thing we need to look at is the fish have a nice cozy ecosystem that hasn't and will not change. This place is called Olympic National Park, A great place to pass on thier genes.
People blame tribal nets for the decline on the Humptulips,that is far from the truth.The last that I talked to someone thier was only person fishing this river.
Take a drive up Donkey Creek Road or The Promised Land. I think this will give everyone a clue to why the Humptulips sister rivers to the north are doing so much better,they have the Park to spawn in. It is kind of hard to spawn in the light brown muck caused by corporate greed. Logging companies have known for years before any of us were born what they were doing to the fish. Shake mills would fill in the tributaries with cedar waste. A person could go on and on about the things our fathers and grandfathers did to help the cause and yes my relatives were part of this. I have lived on the peninsula all my life and I talk to the oldtimers and they feel very guilty. Historically the natives got to fish very little,look up some history that is why we have a thing called the Bolt decision. So I dont think tribal netting is an issue here just another excuse in the long list. Yes our grandfathers also built a pyramid to the gods called a DAM. But we must remenmber that dams are not a pyramid and they can and will be torn down. The baby boomers are not going to be running the show in WASH D.C. forever,and Slade Gorton will be gone soon, and we will say that Slade guy he saved the Mariners but he couldent save the salmon.
Thank You

Sniveks.

You won't last long on this B.B. posting like that.

It seems to me that Oregon bought the fishing rights from the Indians. The way things look they are happy making money at there casinos. Can not anyone think of a fair trade that will make us all happy. set them up with fish farms and buy the fish from them. This may work

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dank

Please Sniveks refrain from using your 3 word vocabulary, and stop being offensive. I agree with Duck in Fog, you will get wasted. Please stick to the subject, and if you veer off, please don't be offensive.

[This message has been edited by Gutt'n Fish (edited 03-09-2000).]

I've read some good books lately.The author is Roderick Haig-Brown. He was an avid fisherman/conservationalist. Some of the books were published in the 1940's.He wrote about the declining salmon runs back then.

Hillbilly Redneck,
Glad to hear that folks are still discovering Haig-Brown. There were people in his day, and even before (Aldo Leopold for instance), who were aware of the damage being done to our environment in the name of profit. I read an article by Lois Crisler, (the wife of Herb Crisler who spent years wandering the Olympics and shot most of the footage for Disney's "The Olympic Elk")published in 1955, detailing the damage that was being done to watersheds all over the Olympics even then. Jim Lichatowich's book "Salmon Without Rivers" has, deservedly, received a lot of attention lately but I haven't heard anyone mention Bruce Brown's "Mountain in the Clouds" which covered a lot of the same ground almost twenty years ago. And guess what? The situation has gotten one hell of a lot worse. Enough venting, I hope you will enjoy Haig-Brown's work as much as I have over many years.

I think I have learned more about fishing from Haig-Brown than any other fishing related books I've read.Recommended reading for anyone who enjoys fishing.

A couple of the posts have been removed here ... opposing viewpoints are certainly welcome, but please keep it clean ... remember, there are youngsters that frequent this board!

What happened to my posts???????I guess expressing your views on here is inapropriate if it doesnt fit the board HUH!or is it that I said ASS!!!!!!!

[This message has been edited by sniveks (edited 03-09-2000).]

[This message has been edited by sniveks (edited 03-09-2000).]