Defending native whackers and dissing those who practice C&R? Are you serious?

And your 50% kill figure for C&R is pure crap. Do some lunkheads mishandle every native they land? Sure. So now let's end all C&R seasons? Please......

Sorry, but if you're siding with Plunker, then I'm afraid I'm through with you.....

I dissed bad C&R fishermen, I also dissed spawning bed rapers who hide under the term C&R. I also supported a guide who did nothing unethical.
Of course 50% is not a accurate figure. To say catch and release has no impact on our fishery is wrong. I have seen some absolutely ridiculous fish handling practices and was using that as a comparison to a ethical plunker...not the plunker

1. Handling fish with no glove. You ever handle a fish with no glove....turns into a circus unless the fish is nearly dead or soon to be. Fish can survive seal attacks but not a glove to the tail...BS use the dam glove.
2.Bringing the fish to be released into the boat while it squirms in the net cutting its gill rakers. One deep hook in the gills can kill fish before they can even be beached. Any damage prevention to the gill rakers must be foremost on a catch and release.
3. Dragging a fish onto the beach allowing it to roll around in the gravel before letting it go. Pulling fish into water that is full of damaging silt and fine gravel.
4. Taking the fish from the water to take its picture....ego!!! Run a marathon then hold your breath for a minute so I can take a picture.
5. Most of the catch and release areas on the peninsula rivers are the spawning areas. There are guides and fishermen who target the same stretch of river day after day because they can catch fish there. You hook the same fish repeatedly its going to be weak and less prone to survive, but because you let it go its ok in your mind. If the run needs protection.......Shut it Down or at the very least stay the hell off the Spawning BEDS!!!
6. Using line so light that it takes forever to get the fish to the shore causing lactic acid build up in the fish.....DEAD FISH

Every fishermen has a impact on the system they are fishing, including myself and so does C&R. To hide on the holy side is BS.

I also think it is hypocritcal to stand up for complete C&R of steelhead and Then bash salmon on the head out of the same river.

Calls them like I sees them.....If that offends you ....look again




------------------
Marty
www.steelheader.net
marty@steelheader.net

Bravo Marty,
I could not have put it better!!!!! I agree with you 100%!!!

------------------
Tight Lines!!

Marty ... I'll have to disagree with you on several points, and add several that you forgot:

1) The glove ... a glove is probably alright IF it is non-absorbant. That means get whatever you have sopping wet before you ever touch a fish with it, and no cotton or wool. Personally, I don't use a glove ... never seen a reason to, I don't have any trouble most fish. The fish is always held over the water and if it squirms and gets free, it's in the water and no big deal.

2)The gill rakers ... don't touch period! Do not use a net that has large enough mesh to allow it to entangle in a gill.

Do not use bait divers!!! Spawners will gargle them and die, as will a number of the fresh fish!!!! Marty, the guide you defend uses these nearly exclusively! I discontinued 99% of my use of these during wild steelhead season years ago. Tactics must be changed in order to protect the fish.

3) Well said ... more technically, you're going to lose slime in the dry rocks and sand, causing infection.

4) If done properly, shouldn't be a problem. That means: have all cameras ready before EVER taking the fish out of the water; don't keep out of the water for 10 seconds MAX (find an old copy of STS for study reports on this one). Never bring the fish into the boat or hold above dry ground that the fish could fall onto if dropped. Again, always hold the fish over the water.

5) Huh??? Marty, the whole river is spawning ground! Did you know that lots of fish spawn in the Quillayute itself?? That's many miles from the C&R water on these systems! Ever had those little white glass boats float down over the water you're fishing in the lower end of the river?? There're counting redds. Instead, anglers need to recognize what is spawning water and what isn't. From top to bottom in a river system, you have both all the way through. If it's spawning grounds, don't fish it PERIOD, whether you're keeping a fish or letting it go, let the fish be on their beds!

6) Sounds good to me.

Marty,

I think you've made some valid points, but wandered astray on others. While I agree handling fish with bare hands can be a bit of a challenge, I think the lesson is, hold the fish over the water and if you drop it before you click the photo, oh well. And the phot taking point you made is crap. Fumbling to find, turn on, and point/focus the camera is only stupid if you start doing it only after the fish has been tailed. I know damn well I could hold my breath for a couple seconds after even the most strenuous exercise, and if you get ready first, that's all a photo takes.

Secondly, let's say you have two guides fishing the Duc. One fishes the upper, one the lower. The guide on the upper is strictly C&R, doesn't run divers, and passes over 40-50% more redds than the guide on the lower. The guide on the lower river runs divers, doesn't have a strict C&R policy, and still passes over a significant number of redds in the lower section. Is one guide "better" or "more ethical" than the other? No, but if I'm a 25 pound Sol Duc fish, I know who I'd rather have floating over me. Opinion? Sure, but that's the way I see it.

Fish on........

I guess I have ruffled some feathers....Dick thanks for the support.

Bob in response to your reply. I must add some more to mine and your post.

1) I enjoy your pictures and realise that most of the people in those pictures are not you holding the fish. I also know how difficult it is to hold one by the tail when they flop if your not use to handling fish.

2)I agree on the first part about gill rakers. Now on the second part concerning the bait divers. Bait divers can be hell on down river fish so I must agree in part. Now if the bait diver is used where it is legal to use it....change the rules or so the practice is stopped. The guide did nothing wrong in his use of it!!! But if I recall correctly I read you say you used the pink worm behind a bait diver. Also if I am not mistaken you fish primarily in areas where it would be illegal to use bait in the first place let alone on a diver.

3).....agreed

4)Possible when all goes right.

5)Yes I know fish spawn in the Quillayute!! Bob did you know the majority of the fish that spawn are in the upper reaches of the river?? So where do you feel fish lay that would be considered spawner water. Tailouts and soft water would be my answer. Now which method is used exclusively in such types of water?.....Plugs and Bait Divers. Would you include plugs in your ban or just divers?

All types of tackle have a impact on fish even the dry fly!!! If you fish you have a impact, it just can't be avoided. Sure it can be minimized by using different tackle, fishing different water, fishing different styles.

It is impossible to not fish some spawning ground if you include the entire river. So lets minimize the effect on the majority of spawning water. Using that logic the spawning fish that need to be protected are in the lower river, since there are fewer spawners down low. Lets rotate the closure areas every year on the river, so all portions get a chance to revitalize.

On the hoh the majority of the fish spawn above oxbow.....shut down the upper river

On the soleduc the majority spawn above Witcomb Dimmel.....shut it down

Clawah shut it down above 101
Bogey shut it down above the hatchery

6)agreed

Dan
I am not buying your fitness answer.
Go outside and run "panic" wind sprints until you can't run anymore. Then let me know how you do holding your breath.

Secondly...I take it your not a guide. We have had this argument before over whos fish these are. I am with you saying the guide usually catches the fish. The guides look at it differently....clients fish. So from a guides point of view its the client who would be using bait divers.

Well I have fishing to do tomorrow in Forks....maybe I will see Bob at P&S.



------------------
Marty
www.steelheader.net
marty@steelheader.net

Marty,

No, I'm not a guide. And yes, I CAN hold my breath for 3 seconds after panic wind sprints. I don't think you want to wager money on that point. Have you emailed STS, Vedder, Herzog, and all the rest of the fishing pubs to let them know that they're egomaniacs for taking/printing photos of RELEASED natives?

You've placed C&R fishers who take photos on a lower moral/ethical ground than those that whack nates because the law allows them to. Nice. I'm sure the fish are glad to have you as a proponent.

Sure we all have an impact on the fish. But at least the fish won't have the impact of my fish beater on their heads to deal with, but they WILL have to endure the torture of two seconds out of water for a photo.

Have a nice day.


Fish on......................

You have it down to two seconds now? Very impressive!!

I did not put anybody on higher moral ground .....YOU DID. If a fish suffers injury it doesn't matter who/what did the damage its done. I pointing out impacts that you have selectively ignored.

If you think that STS and other major publications don't read these pages you have bumped your head.
I can obviously see your impact is ok and anybody else is not allowed any.....Keep Dreaming

Marty,

OK, now you're playing games, and stupid ones, at that. 2 seconds, OK 3 seconds........maybe 5 seconds. Is that the difference between life and death? I think maybe the fish whacker club is the REAL difference. Let's say "a matter of seconds", will that stop your confusion?

You've made it clear to me that you're just more intersted in playing word games than trying to see my point of view. Fine.

What I'm not sure of is this.......who exactly are the "smiles" for, Marty? 'Cause after reading your comments, I'm sure not smiling.

Marty,
I'm not a guide either and I damn sure couldn't hold my breath for 3 or 5 seconds following a wind sprint. Hell the wind sprint would probably kill me!!!
I do agree with you on one point and that is if a run is threatend or endangered then close the river. What good does it do for us (all of us) to be fishing water and impacting an endangered run under the premiss of targeting another species when we all know exactly what we are doing.I like to have pictures to share my experience with my family and friends, I don't get to go very often but when I do, it's nice to have some fishing photos to look back on.
As for the position that it is the client who is fishing with divers, shame on you!!
You sir, are a professional fishing guide and as such it is your RESPONSIBILITY to instruct your clients in the techniques that have the least adverse impact upon the resource.
I have fished with Dan S. on numerous occasions and fully intend to do so again. At no time has he mistreated a fish or caused a fish harm unless it was leagle to knock the sucker.We have some very good fishing pictures to look back on.
Any way, this is just a look from the other end of the bar....
\grumpyr

Marty,

After I looked back at my last response to you, I thought about how I had let myself get all worked up about a simple difference of opinion. I'd like to take this opportunity to apologize for the confrontational attitude I displayed after you said photos were for egos. I simply disagree, and nothing more.

I'm sure if we met on the river, we'd be able to act in a civil manner, and this Board shouldn't be any different. We don't want to become just another forum for exchanging insults, as there are already plenty of them out there.

Good luck on the water.......

Fish on......

Marty ...

Yes, I run worms behind a diver from time to time and plugs too .. but these ARE NOT bait divers. There is a big difference in how fish are most often hooked on the different riggings. Illegal?? No, I never said so. But as I have learned over the years, if you're going to let a wild fish go, it is by far in the best interest of the fish not to run a BAIT diver (eggs / shrimp / etc.). It's a matter of ethics, respect of the fish, and a responsibility to the entire fishery. It's taken some effort to find a way to hook as many fish in certain water conditions as I could on a well-presented bait diver, but I have found methods that work equally as well .. with LESS damage to the fish. None of us have ever said zero ... but less. That's the bottom line.

In an average rainfall wild steelie season, maybe 1/2 of my fishing takes place in selective fishery waters .. the rest in std. regulation waters. Not really sure what was meant by your mention of this, but I thought I'd clarify this for you.

As to your markers on the rivers, I give you you another huh?? Of course most of the fish in the 'Duc spawn above Whitcomb-Dimmel ... that's because the VAST majority of the 'Duc watershed is above this line!!! In fact, the VAST majority of the watershed is ALREADY closed to ALL fishing. Ever been up to the Salmon Cascades this time of year?? If not ... go watch how many fish are dozens of miles above the fishing deadline! The same can be said for all the lines you've come up with.

Spawning water is not always clearly defined as fish spawn in different water levels and what is shallow one day, might be deep the next. It is the responsibility of an ethical angler to know where fish spawn in a given river and leave those areas alone. Anglers that don't know, need to go out and look! Looking for something to do when the rivers that you fish close?? Go take a float and learn these areas! You just can't say tailouts as many tails don't have the bottom structure favored for spawning ... and rarely do you find beds in soft water as flowing water is essential for proper oxygenation of the eggs.

As I've said many times in the past ... if we don't do our best to protect the fish (appropriate tactics) and continue to club fish, then we're going to face either total closures, or restrictions such as putting all anglers on a river in a couple of miles(boy, doesn't that sound like fun!). It's time to start managing with the first priority the welfare of the fish, the second priority opportunity and economics and lastly, harvest. There WILL be a day when this will happen, maybe not in my lifetime, but I cetainly hope it's before the fish have to disappear!

Hey guys,
I`m not trying to sound ingnorant here, but I just started really steelhead fishing this year, I had done it once or twice before in the past, but it wasn`t until I hooked one that I really started fishing for them, but after reading your guys` "bashings" I have a couple of questions, is a bait diver like a plug?
I want to know because the least harm I can cause the fish before releasing it,the better, so help me out here guys, reading the stuff in this topic is confusing the (excuse the language), hell out of me. It seems years ago I seen where a person should "not" get the oils from their hands on the fish, so I carry a pair of those gloves with the vinyl or rubber spots like gardening gloves to handle the fish with, if that`s wrong, let me know, please. Or anything else I should do to help protect the fish,(besides stop fishing of course),*L*
Common sense things I know, techniques,... well, I`m learning. Tony


[This message has been edited by rainycity (edited 03-29-2000).]

[This message has been edited by rainycity (edited 03-29-2000).]

CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG!!!

Rainycity, a popular baitdiver and the one they may be refering to is a mag Hot-n-Tot with the hooks removed and then painted black. To the belly eyelet attach a five foot leader. The bait is usually an egg cluster or sandshrimp topped off with a tiny spin-n-glo or birdie. Back it down like a plug, but wait until the rod wiggles, snaps down a few times and is buried before striking. This is where the problem lies, usually when the rod gets buried the fish has already swallowed the bait. But if you try and set earlier, you miss it many times. This method is deadly for both steelies and just about all the salmon species. Nate spawners love swallowing these presentations. Bob is just one of the many steelhead fishers, a few other guides included, that choose not to use baitdivers during the late-winter and early-spring when the native winter-runs are the predominant specie in the river.




[This message has been edited by Hohwaiian (edited 03-29-2000).]

Hoh,
Thank you,

grumpr
I AM NOT A GUIDE. To understand the statement that "client is using the diver" you must understand previous arguments I have had on this board. My contention is guides are really commercial fishermen to a degree. They say that it is the client who punches the fish, so they (guides) have no impact on the fishery. I would like the guides to be accountable for all fish caught from their boats, not just their clients.
Pictures can be taken responsibly of fish and they can be abused. Why not take the picture of the fish in the water?

Dan
I didn't start this fight but am willing shake hands and move on.

Bob
My markers are from my personal observations of the Forks rivers from my Sight Seeing Floats....I float in my puma just to look at the Big Spawners in the Systems!!! Have lived here my whole live and want nothing more than to have things improve for the future.

On Ethics.. The situation you talk about for steelhead we presently have for salmon. While you Fish in Alaska during the summer for salmon we watch our salmon boats grow moss. We are well aware of what closures mean to our fishing opportunities. On previous posts you have stated you fish with Kwikfish in the upper hoh during closed salmon fishing seasons. It may be legal to fish with Kwik fish at that time, but it sure as hell isn't ethical.

Marty ... isn't the Upper Hoh wide open for fall salmon?? Wasn't it for a number of years before the closure for a couple?? We've gone rounds on this one before.

Why are there no C&R seasons / areas on salmon?? Granted I kill some of the salmon we catch (as I recently mentioned in previous posts, we also let many go too), but why is it that the state feels that salmon fisheries must be catch and kill?? Lots of other areas don't ... the Kenai Peninsula, with the Kenai River itself perhaps the best example (with studies done on it).

The same concerns for the fish (rigging, where you fish) would be just as important in such a fishery.

The point here is pretty plain and simple ... a released fish has at least a 90% better chance of making it to spawn that a whacked one .. period!

Marty,
sorry about that. I guess I got the impresion that you were a guide from one of your responses to DAN S. The sentiment remains the same however, even if the target of the comment is shifted somewhat. Guides, as professionals, have a responsibility to thier clients and to other users to minimize thier impact upon the resource.
How about it BOB?
Am I way off base here or what?
grumpyr

[This message has been edited by grumpyr (edited 03-29-2000).]

Bob I agree a released fish at least has a chance. I just want to make sure that chance is maximized when releasing them. But I also think if it needs protecting we need to shut it down and those regulations should be obeyed in spirit.

Grumpyr
I would love to see the guides keep accurate records of their fishing. Those records would include the section of river fished, numbers of fish hooked landed. Presently those numbers aren't kept pertaining individual guides.

On the lighter side of things....I will be meeting with a tribe very shortly to discuss the switch of fishing techniques to a more selective method.