A portion of top fish bio. Jim Martin's studies will follow my comments.- In Oregon our fishermen generally accept C&R reg.'s on native Steelhead stocks. The heated debate that occured on our Ifish.net BB back in Feb. wasn't whether or not to kill nates, but rather whether or not to ban the use of bait from Feb. 15 thru April to help the survival rate of the released nates at the times they were most numerous in the rivers. Many, including myself, contended a significant mortality rate with the use of bait; particularly using diver & bait combos. It's not as high as I thought. I have noticed that many of the kill & eat proponents, such as Plunker & Riverdrifter in the "Introduction" thread, use the arguement that most of the C&R'd fish die anyway to justify their native harvest position/desire. They are WRONG! With widespread angler education, which has occured in Oregon & Washington, on the proper release tech for native C&R Steelhead fishing (i.e.- play the fish reasonably quickly, keep it in the water for gentle removal of barbed & hopefully barbless hooks, cut leader on deeply swallowed hooks, gently revive fish when needed) the mortality rate is less than 10%. It is not much higher on fish C&R'd more than once. Given scientific study results in combo with documented decline of valuable, & irreplaceable if fished to extinction, wild native Steehead stocks, there is simply no justifiable argument to kill nates to eat. Especially considering the availability of hatchery caught fish to eat & market available farmed salmon/steelhead to eat!!! It is not legal to keep any native Steelhead in Oregon. All hatchery fish are now adipose fin clipped for indentification.-- Retired former head of Ore. Dept. of Fish & Wildlife Jim Martin, is widely considered the foremost salmon/steelhead expert biologist in the NW. He continues to study means to revive fish runs as a consultant. - Here is an excerp from a letter he sent to me for our BB debate on the use of bait for wild winter Steelhead: "Now that we are releasing wild steelhead, I see little value in further restrictions on bait use. The exception would be on low populations of wild summer steelhead (not winter steelhead) in warmer water (where hard fishing pressure with bait would have a bit higher mortality).-para- To start with, very few winter steelhead fisheries can put even a 30% interception rate on a steelhead run. A 10% hooking mortality, which is high end for cold water winter steelheading, would cause at most (but probably much less than) a 3% impact on the run. This will make essentially no difference to the basic run productivity. But it does cause lots of discussion by anglers, each eager to be more extreme in their protectionism than the other. Finally, late season fishing in Mar./April is a low pressure situation in Oregon, and I'd figure in Washington too. Most people go home after Jan. and the hatchery fish dwindle.-para- Recent studies conducted in Oregon showed a very low mortality rate of less than 7% for spring chinook even when they took bait very deep because most fishermen just cut the leader and let them go (where regulated- such as the McKenzie R.). The only significant problem occured when fish took plugs and spinners deep and fishermen would pry out the trebbles to save their expensive gear (more damaging than a properly leader cut bait hooked fish release).-para- All in all, fishermen need to realize they have done their duty with catch and release reg.'s, and go enjoy fishing. If there are more protective reg.'s needed, it is with warmwater summer steelhead fisheries and with trout fisheries which kill lots of juvenile smolts. This is where the focus should be from a practical sense." You can e-mail questions to Jim Martin at jtmartin@purefishing.com . - I suggest from these studies that we use barbless single siwash hooks on plugs and spinners when significant numbers of nates are present. I also would suggest, based on my own and other guide's experiences, to avoid using diver and bait combos during that time. Driftfishing bait usually hooks the fish around the jaw and not deep. - Steve Hanson - Important P.S.- The ODWF has published reports of the hooking mortality studies Jim Martin refered to in his letter, on hatchery Spring Chinook stocks in the Willamette R. The last few years these have been the most extensive such studies that I am aware of. The studies are significant for steelhead nates in that the concesus of opinion is that wild native Steelhead are at least as hardy as hatchery Springers and take less time to land. Several of the top Ore. City full time guides have partaken in the studies where they fish boatloads of anglers to C&R with a variety of bait/lure and release techniques on thousands of stacked up Springers above the angling deadline below Willamette Falls. All fish are tagged according to method of hookup and release. These fish then arrive at hatcheries after having to climb difficult fish ladders and traveling many scores of miles to the Santiam, McKenzie, and Middle Fork hatchery ponds. The studies are VALID! So when Jim Martin mentioned that the studies indicate only a 7% mortality rate, even on deep bait hooked Springers, and thus highly likely similar survival for released Steelhead nates, this IS what's actually going on. All the rest of what I hear on this site is people's non-science backed opinions. Usually self-interest opinions.- Steve

[This message has been edited by Reel Truth (edited 04-04-2000).]

Very interesting results!

Being a science teacher, I am always striving for an argument to be merited by facts. If I recall correctly, BC did a similar study with similar results.

This is definitely a hot topic and the study well-founded. Kudos to ODFW. I hope they will share their findings with other states/regions that support anadromous fish runs.

I find the news encouraging for myself as I prefer to drift fish bait(not bait divers). Now I can do it with a clearer conscience. Besides, My own fishing confirms the "corner of the mouth" theory with drifted bait....Probably 90-95% of my fish, winter and summer, are hooked somewhere on the edge of the mouth. This is due in part also to my technique for setting the hook.

Steve, thanks for this important info. Keep us posted on any further developments.

Thanks, Steve. That's the second piece of encouraging -- if counter-intuitive -- news on C&R mortality that I've read lately.

STS's Feb-Mar edition mentions a study done fish mortality using barbed vs. barbless hooks. This study compared the results of 11 other studies (on trout, not steelhead or salmon) and concluded that barbed flies and lures combined killed 4.5% of the fish hooked vs. 4.2% for barbless hooks. The authors concluded that this difference was so slight as to be meaningless for practical purposes (mentioning a natural mortality rate of 30-65% p.a. in trout streams in any event). Their conclusion was that barbless vs. barbed hook usage was more a social than a practical issue -- a nice way of saying that the fish preservationists should find another issue to worry about.

Is anyone aware of rigorous studies done on fish handling (dry vs. wet hands/ gloves and slime removal) and survival? I've recently heard from a fishing buddy (w/o details) of a study that purported to show no difference in mortality in trout when they were handled w/ dry vs. wet hands provided that they weren't out of the water for more than 10-15 seconds before going back. I'd be interested in reading more about this topic, esp. as it applies to steelhead/ salmon.

Dear Mr. Truth - Thank you, thank you, thank you for posting some factual material! Reading some researched facts on Catch and Release was like a long, cool drink of water after coming out of a desert. I get so frustrated with these C&R debates. I have great respect for people's beliefs, but I don't think anyone should be beyond a cool-headed, dispassionate review of well-conducted tests and well-researched conclusions.

I suppose anglers, the best of whom develop their skills through years and years of largely solitary experimentation, would naturally hold strong, deeply seated opinions about what they've come to believe to be true. But these vitriolic debates display an intolerance that is the very hallmark of why we anglers have no political voice. We would rather believe what we believe and to Hell with those that believe differently than respect fellow anglers' equally deep-seated beliefs and admit some compromise, even for the greater good of the resource. That is the biggest weakness that we have.

Sorry to wax so sappy, but this sentiment just overwhelms me when I see so much energy wasted in hostility between persons who should have so much in common. Thanks again for a small oasis of fact!

The saddest part of the whole debate is the fact our state feels that there are "enough" wild fish in some rivers to allow harvest to take place. Enough, already! Do we have to destroy everything? The state simply needs to ban all wild fish harvest. Even though hatchery numbers are declining as well, there ARE "enough" brats to club(if you so choose).

Reel
Thanks for sharing the report.
Backlash the sad part of the debate is that the state doesn't recognize the time of year when a fish comes into the system as being a separate subspecies needing rules for those fish.
If you read "Salmon without rivers" you realize the timing of runs and how the canadian government took that into consideration to bring back the sockeye of the Fraser system.

I know from my own personal experiences when to fish different rivers to match run timing.

Please excuse the oversight Plunker. But I have read in a number of posts the utterly lame excuse of C&R mortality to justify bonking nates. Even they don't need a scientific study to know that approximately 100% of bonked, cooked, & eaten nates die; compare that to 7%. - I also have read in many posts here the general discust with the performance of both politicians & the WDFW fisheries decisions concerning continued harvest of some native steelhead stocks. I consider myself a Northwest native rather than an Oregonian (with the possible exception of Beavs vs Dawgs). So please don't take the following as a state comparison; only a fisheries management comparison. The ODWF made a late but correct decision in recent years to no longer allow any harvest of wild steelhead statewide. At the same time all hatchery steelhead smolts (I call them hats- you call them brats?) are fin-clipped for managed harvest. The same program is now going into effect for Spring Chinooks. Along with that Governor Kitzhaber, an avid angler, has instituted unpresidented statewide broad spectrum co-operation between anglers, landowners, and industry to improve spawning habitat. He calls it the Oregon Salmon Plan, which has kept the Feds at bay concerning implimentation of the Fed. Endangered Species Act from further curtailing fishing opportunity. And most importantly, this combo will give the nates a good chance to recover given time! So, what the hell is going on in the Washington fisheries decision rooms?? How could they not have learned by years of mistakes that ALL nates need long term protection for vital recovery? I certainly hope that a strong & powerful voice emerges in such form as the Wash. Anglers Alliance to get right in the faces of the powers in control of the future of state fish resource health! Hey, they must have learned what is right for these causes in recent years. They have Oregon managers as an appropriate example to follow. Who has got these guys by the balls?? And why? I'd like to know and hear suggestions of what can be done about it. You have heard the WAA suggestion. If you lack optimism to change the status quo of Indian netting (which I understand better since joining this site, but am still not convinced to be hopeless), DON'T lack optimism and effort to change the status quo of state mismanagement. Their wrongs aren't protected by outdated treaties and Judge Boldt mis-decision. Get in their faces for proper change. We've wittnessed it happen here. - Steve

Plunker.... I read your introduction post and I'm having a real hard time thinking your anything but a total ass... It would seem that you have good ideas and think things though but I go back and read that post and it really is stupid. I think maybe you wish you could take that one back??? You seem to smart to have written something that stupid.

No wild fish may be kept in Idaho or Oregon... Its hard to belive with all the data thats out there that wa state still lets them get bonked.

The fact that Gov. Kitzhaber is an angler may be part of the answer. Washington's Gov. Locke may know which end of a fish goes upstream first but I wouldn't bet on it. Who did he put in charge of his salmon recovery bureaucracy? Why, Curt Smitch of course, the very person who so aptly managed the decline of our salmon and steelhead resources just a few years ago. Locke's adamant opposition to breaching of the Snake River dams and the kind of sweetheart deals he wants to cut with the timber companies lead me to expect lots of puffery and little or no substance where salmon recovery is concerned. You've got it right; we have to stay in their faces and on their asses and speak with a unified voice if we expect to get anything at all accomplished.

The future of our fishing is found in today’s actions – Plunker

todays actions are? kill it eat it ? boy that makes a lot of sence. make up you're mind Kerplunker In one post you have almost a conservation tone to it then you open you're mouth with you're backwards mentallity again...Maybe you should change you're name to Cybil

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Tight Lines
FISH ON ------<*)>><
Men are like fish we get into trouble when we open our mouths to much!!

I guess this topic is the big kahunah and is here to stay,oh well. It's all about impact on the fish. The line that 100% of bonked fish don't spawn is true, but doesn't mean much. Example 1, One guy fishes all the time and cnr's 100 fish in a season. Another guy fishes a few weekends and keeps 2 fish for the whole season.Who is making the bigger impact? Example 2' One guy fishes a few weekends and cnr's 5 fish all season. Another guy fills a whole punch card, puts them in his freezer and uses them for crab bait next summer becuase they all got freezer burned. Who is making the bigger impact? Why not just have a low season limit of retained fish and a limit on how many can be caught and released? And, if possable, have WDFW identify major spawning areas and close them to all fishing.
Now what we realy need to do is get those dams off the Elwah and elect some politicians that will actually do something to recover all our fish.

Sniveks-
Well for your information in case you have been living in a hole you entire life (which considering your attitude is highly possible), the timber company's do have a lot to do with it. I don't hear anybody saying that we have to do away with logging, it's just that some of there practices need to be changed. Instead of raping whole mountain sides, they could do cut smaller strips or patches. I know this would cost consumers more because the loggers would have to move around more, but I think that most people would be willing to pay this extra little bit. And where did you come up with 25% die after C & R. Maybe if drag them through the mud and hold them up by the gills for a picture. With proper handling techniques...ie keep them fish in the water, quick picture ect., the mortality rate is at most 5-7%. Check your numbers next time when you get diaria of the mouth and constipation of the brain!!!

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"Walk softly, but carry a big steelhead"

Here is a hypothetical question for you all. If you owned a river and needed some agency to manage it for you, would you pick our boys at the Fish and Widlife Department to manage your river? NO. Not unless you wanted all the fish in your river to be extinct in 10 years. Lets get rid of these guys if they do not want to see our wild fish protected. All the talk in the world about c&r is just talk. Our fish and game people have to want to protect what we have. Besides they have known about c&r and all the numbers and outcomes for years.

Maybe you have been in a hole your whole life if you didnt know the size of a clearcut has been droped from 350acres to 150.And buffers are 300ft instead of 15ft...

So Oregon, Idaho, British Columbia have restricted the harvesting of wild steelhead to recreational sportfishers. Alaska offers a 1 fish kill on wild steelhead over 36 inches. But here in Washington, our fish harvest managers have concluded that we have much better habitat and better ocean conditions than the other 4. The thing that really gets me is how harvest managers, both fish and timber, utilize a public resource that is owned by all and give it away so a few can make a buck. What do the timber companies have to do with it? Study up on the Deer Creek situation then ask yourself if that was the best use of a public good.

I personaly hate treble hooks. I use barbless hooks regardless of what the studies say, because I know that it is much easier on me to make a quick release, which has to benefit the fish. I only know my results and they are a very high majority of the fish I catch while driftfishing is right in the corner of the mouth. With a quick turn of the pliers the fish is on his way without ever touching it.


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sniveks- that 300ft buffer looks goog on paper, but I have yet to see it aplied. Besides that it's the small creeks that feed the main rivers that come in muddy. But thats just from my expereance.
Also whats with all of this "do you have your head up your a**" and all, just bring up the facts. Theirs a lot of good knowledge out their, just don't put the fellow fisherman down becouse their the ones thats going to support you if your beliefs are justifyed.
For those that that have jumped on me, I never said I keep wild's ,just the brat's and I only have 1/4 of one in the freezer now. I eat what I catch and no I don't us it for crab bait either(A person should be shot for that) ops.. I didnt't mean that literaly.
Good luck fishing on the upcoming weekend all!

sniveks,

Your rational and well thought out posts have added much to this discussion. Oh, wait a minute. No, they weren't rational or well thought out. Never mind.........

Fish on......

Maybe some of this discussion should be forwarded to the Washington Fish and Wildlife Commision.

Here's the address: commission@dfw.wa.gov



[This message has been edited by salmontackler (edited 04-06-2000).]

Salmontackler,
Now there's a good idea!!! Bob Ball; you as influential moderator on here, can you send the posts by Steve Hanson, Reel Truth on this thread, and many other's good posts to the suggested e-mail? You are a big proponent of what's been discussed on this thread! We can't expect out of staters to have to do this for us, come on! A whole bunch of us should send in posts. Jim Bain, how about you and the WAA send a few of these posts (mentioning strong membership probabilities from among the state's voters)? It certainly can't hurt and is quite likely to do some good. ..shtick

Snivecks, timber companies buy politicians, sticking up for them is akin to berating democracy itself. I, for one, question your allegience. Also where does the human life come in? Or did you mean human lifes having clean butts? C

Well all you earth first folks can buzz off.I support my family with timber dollars.Maybe you folks should focus your attention on tribal nets and all the folks right off our coast fishing that are from other counties.You folks make me sick

hey here is my .02, just because just raise your family on forest money you should know first hand that not all but a large portion of lumber companies do not abide by the rules, as true with some fisherman/woman.
if it can be seen then it is ok to do, i have many friends whom have lived of our forest resources and most of them are out there just like everyone else, to make a living and well, to hell with the little [Bleeeeep!]. if they got to close or even had a spill down hill into a small creek, they would bring in a bunch of brush and try to cover up the opps. hide it it will be ok, does not work. now i do not know you snivek's personally nor do i wish to become your friend. i will not attack you here or anywhere else. it is very forgetable that you come on here and berate others for their comments.

if you don't like, don't read it.

thanks elmtree

[This message has been edited by elmtree (edited 04-05-2000).]

Sniveks, timber dollars support all our families in the form of schools. Nobody is trying to say ban all logging. Just do it responsibly and follow the rules. Nobody called you a gap-toothed, inbred redneck because of your posts so stop tossing around silly stereotypes about folks interested in preserving natural resources for future generations. It's in your best interest, especially if you make your living in the woods.

Now if we all could just put in the same energy towards wrting to, or sending posts from here, to commision@dwf.wa.gov , that many on here put the energy into snibbling back & forth at each other, things can be accomplished! Thanks for that idea Salmonwhacker. And Fishtick, while I reside in Oregon I consider myself a Northwesterner rather than an out-of -stater. I also have purchased my annual Wash. fresh water angling license to fish SW Wash. for C&R'd steelhead & keep an occasional hatchery springer. So I am just as interested in the wellfare of Wash. fish runs as in Oregon. That's why I became a contributing member of this BB. And I will forward the message of better fisheries management, particularly concerning steelhead nates, to the commision address as suggested. I hope many of you all will also! - Steve

Reel Truth: To get back to the original subject of this thread, I was wondering if you had any idea how the anglers were chosen for the studies Jim Martin cited. They were likely an educated group in terms of C&R, and they were probably very contientious in how they handled the fish, especially since there were researchers looking over their shoulders. Does this represent the norm?

An example: two weeks ago I was fishing the Mlfjghdfh River in Oregon. I was swinging a fly through a run and on the run below me were a spinner fisher and another fly guy. They hooked up within a few minutes of each other, both 5-6 lb wild fish. Both guys yarded the fish onto the rocks. The spinner guy showed it to his girlfriend for about 90 seconds, then let it go. It swam vigorously into the channel, probably to soon die. The fly guy landed it near the tailout so he had to carry it partly across the tailout and up the bank fifty yards in order to impress his woman. He probably had it out of the water five minutes. Then he walked back dowm to the tailout to let it go.

Anyway, the point is two wild fish, two dead fish. I know this is too small of a sample to make conclusions but I also know most of us have probably seen similar things many times. So what happens to that 7% when you factor in people who don't know what they are doing or don't give a crap?

I'm not sure where I'm going here, I'm mostly just venting - still pissed about what I saw. Is angler education the answer? Angler education is just rhetoric -- bureaucratic spew unless it is backed up somehow.

C&R is without a doubt the best management technique these days but it has problems. While Plunkers theory that catching a fish is justifiable if you make a turd out of it but not if you just enjoy catching it is ridiculous, he has a valid point regarding closing all fishing for depleted stocks, especially when considering situations like what I saw.

Stinkfoot: About those 2 manly macho men giving the "air time" to the steelhead for their women- I read about a study a couple years ago, published in Psychology Today mag., about fishermen. Two findings stand out in my memory. 1- The longer a fisherman holds his catch out of the water, the shorter his penis is likely to be. 2- The longer a fisherman's jetsled is, the shorter his penis is likely to be. Well, I definitely buy #1. But I think they made a mistake with conclusion #2. I used to own a 20+ ft. Alumaweld Super Vee. After I read that article I went & sold my boat and bought an older shorter 18 ft. flatbottom Alumaweld sled. Hey, let me warn any of you guys that read the article- it didn't help a bit! Nothing. Nadda. Same ol' crank. Keep the longer boats. . -- Unlike that little farce, the C&R studies in Oregon are real. It was & will be conducted by the ODWF. They use a few very good fulltime jetsled guides fishing 5 rods each on springers stacked thick above the Will. Falls deadline. Well to do members of the Oregon Wildlife Heritage Foundation pay about a double guide fee each for the privilage to C&R & tag double numbers of springers under carefully test recorded guidelines (call ODWF for details if interested in helping out with that study- although I don't think they're hurtin' for anglers). They not only use several different hooking methods (bait, lures, trebles, singles, barbed/barbless), they also tested many release methods (including the idiot "air time" & drop on the boat floor method- call ODWF for verification). The overall mortality rate on these C&R'd springers was less than 7% (2 years of testing so far). These tests are being conducted for input on 2001/2002 spring chinook reg.'s when all hatchery springers will return fin-clipped so that native springers can be released (as has been the case for steelhead fishing for some time now in Oregon). The test results will be used for both angler education for best release methods & for documentaion to the Fed.s that C&R will protect the dwindling stocks of native fish, so fishing seasons can remain open. And yes I do think angler education is effective. - Steve

HEY BOB. The really big somthinorother. How come you're sittin' this one out. No comments on one of your favorite causes? No support for Salmon & Reel's writein efforts?? What happend to you? Did you stop reading your own moderated site? you couldn't have stopped caring. And by the way, who is the good lookin' babe in the oval givin air time to the big nate hen?

B-Gray You are wrong there only exported timber!!!

Fishtick ... No, not sitting this one out. My days already run close to 18 hours this time of year, and although I usually read every night, I don't post too much during Feb through mid-April or so. Days would be longer yet without the help of "Fishgal", pictured above.

I've alluded to this very study before in posts ... a friend of a friend was one of the guides involved in it ... simply backs up what many of us have been saying for a long time - done correctly, C&R has a minimal impact.

I support and applaud their efforts for the forwarding of opinions and info to the commision ... we all need to become involved and sacrifice something for the fish.

And Sniveks:
1) I thought state timberland sales went to schoools ... not just exported.
2) 300 foot buffer?? Yeah, explain the giant spruce trees less than 10 ft. from the banks of the Pysht that were cut two or three weeks back.
3) Please keep your posts clean, or your stay here will be short-lived. Thank you.

BOB There is less then 3million ft of state sale timber in a year..And as for keepin it clean I see lots of posts with alot worse swearing then what I have done.You just dont like it because you dont agree with me.I wont be here long this is my last post I dont associate with TREE HUGGERS!!!As for the spruce I dont know nor do I care!!!

[This message has been edited by sniveks (edited 04-06-2000).]

Sniveks, the key words in you last post "nor do I care" summarize a lot of the problems with the timber industry. Maybe you should care a little, chances are your children won't earn living from natural resources like you do. Look to the future once in a while.

[This message has been edited by salmontackler (edited 04-06-2000).]

this whole c&r thing has gone whacko! i personally don't keep wild steelies. but i will never rag on a person that does when it is legal to do so. c&r is also a personal thing. don't rag on a person because they choose to not engage in c&r. buffers along streams are not not always enforced in timber country. barbless hooks have their own problems as they tend to hook deeper than barbed. again personal choice. don't waste your time sending anything to the wdfw commission as they will never respond to you. to effect change you need to put pressure on your legislator. how do you think we were able to somewhat save reiter ponds. push the elimination of keeping unclipped steelhead at anytime with your legislator. the whole demeanor on this as well as other sites is exactly why us sportpersons do not and will not have a voice in olympia. we come across asa bunch of self rightous redneck thugs with a complete inability to listen too, understand, or respect the opinions of others. when a person makes a mistatement of fact and you respond give the facts to set them straight but do it in a constructive way. you get more flys with honey than you do with vinegar and my jaw hurts from all the sourpusses on this site right now. i have come to the realization that as long as we continue to act in this fashion instead of working together to make the politicos change OUR fish are screwed! you may not agree with the WAA but the idea is what is important. remember you can't please everyone all the time. just not realistic. food for thought!

Oscar, the commsission will listen and they do respond. They have responded to several of my emails, even called me on the phone on one occasion.
Nice Try, Oscar

[This message has been edited by salmontackler (edited 04-06-2000).]

I would just like to take a few moments and thank sniveks for his insightful input, and the brilliant analysis he provided the board during his shortlived stay here......ahh, nevermind

well salmontackler you surely must be the exception to the rule. i have emailed the commission on at least a half dozem times during the reiter issue and never received a response. same for a lot of others that have been involved in that issue and others. what is your trick? are you an ex wdfw employee, ex legislator?

Oscar, notice the caps key? We are consulting the commision on two seperate issues.You are asking for $$$'s, while I am asking the commision to look at current regulations regarding C-n-R. You are asking the commision to spend money they don't have. While I am asking them to review the current policy of retaining Wild Steelhead.

Leave a phone # that they can reach you at, or maybe direct your comments to a current commissioner, re=Lisa Pelly. Maybe you will have better results