Well all you earth first folks can buzz off.I support my family with timber dollars.Maybe you folks should focus your attention on tribal nets and all the folks right off our coast fishing that are from other counties.You folks make me sick

hey here is my .02, just because just raise your family on forest money you should know first hand that not all but a large portion of lumber companies do not abide by the rules, as true with some fisherman/woman.
if it can be seen then it is ok to do, i have many friends whom have lived of our forest resources and most of them are out there just like everyone else, to make a living and well, to hell with the little [Bleeeeep!]. if they got to close or even had a spill down hill into a small creek, they would bring in a bunch of brush and try to cover up the opps. hide it it will be ok, does not work. now i do not know you snivek's personally nor do i wish to become your friend. i will not attack you here or anywhere else. it is very forgetable that you come on here and berate others for their comments.

if you don't like, don't read it.

thanks elmtree

[This message has been edited by elmtree (edited 04-05-2000).]

Sniveks, timber dollars support all our families in the form of schools. Nobody is trying to say ban all logging. Just do it responsibly and follow the rules. Nobody called you a gap-toothed, inbred redneck because of your posts so stop tossing around silly stereotypes about folks interested in preserving natural resources for future generations. It's in your best interest, especially if you make your living in the woods.

Now if we all could just put in the same energy towards wrting to, or sending posts from here, to commision@dwf.wa.gov , that many on here put the energy into snibbling back & forth at each other, things can be accomplished! Thanks for that idea Salmonwhacker. And Fishtick, while I reside in Oregon I consider myself a Northwesterner rather than an out-of -stater. I also have purchased my annual Wash. fresh water angling license to fish SW Wash. for C&R'd steelhead & keep an occasional hatchery springer. So I am just as interested in the wellfare of Wash. fish runs as in Oregon. That's why I became a contributing member of this BB. And I will forward the message of better fisheries management, particularly concerning steelhead nates, to the commision address as suggested. I hope many of you all will also! - Steve

Reel Truth: To get back to the original subject of this thread, I was wondering if you had any idea how the anglers were chosen for the studies Jim Martin cited. They were likely an educated group in terms of C&R, and they were probably very contientious in how they handled the fish, especially since there were researchers looking over their shoulders. Does this represent the norm?

An example: two weeks ago I was fishing the Mlfjghdfh River in Oregon. I was swinging a fly through a run and on the run below me were a spinner fisher and another fly guy. They hooked up within a few minutes of each other, both 5-6 lb wild fish. Both guys yarded the fish onto the rocks. The spinner guy showed it to his girlfriend for about 90 seconds, then let it go. It swam vigorously into the channel, probably to soon die. The fly guy landed it near the tailout so he had to carry it partly across the tailout and up the bank fifty yards in order to impress his woman. He probably had it out of the water five minutes. Then he walked back dowm to the tailout to let it go.

Anyway, the point is two wild fish, two dead fish. I know this is too small of a sample to make conclusions but I also know most of us have probably seen similar things many times. So what happens to that 7% when you factor in people who don't know what they are doing or don't give a crap?

I'm not sure where I'm going here, I'm mostly just venting - still pissed about what I saw. Is angler education the answer? Angler education is just rhetoric -- bureaucratic spew unless it is backed up somehow.

C&R is without a doubt the best management technique these days but it has problems. While Plunkers theory that catching a fish is justifiable if you make a turd out of it but not if you just enjoy catching it is ridiculous, he has a valid point regarding closing all fishing for depleted stocks, especially when considering situations like what I saw.

Stinkfoot: About those 2 manly macho men giving the "air time" to the steelhead for their women- I read about a study a couple years ago, published in Psychology Today mag., about fishermen. Two findings stand out in my memory. 1- The longer a fisherman holds his catch out of the water, the shorter his penis is likely to be. 2- The longer a fisherman's jetsled is, the shorter his penis is likely to be. Well, I definitely buy #1. But I think they made a mistake with conclusion #2. I used to own a 20+ ft. Alumaweld Super Vee. After I read that article I went & sold my boat and bought an older shorter 18 ft. flatbottom Alumaweld sled. Hey, let me warn any of you guys that read the article- it didn't help a bit! Nothing. Nadda. Same ol' crank. Keep the longer boats. . -- Unlike that little farce, the C&R studies in Oregon are real. It was & will be conducted by the ODWF. They use a few very good fulltime jetsled guides fishing 5 rods each on springers stacked thick above the Will. Falls deadline. Well to do members of the Oregon Wildlife Heritage Foundation pay about a double guide fee each for the privilage to C&R & tag double numbers of springers under carefully test recorded guidelines (call ODWF for details if interested in helping out with that study- although I don't think they're hurtin' for anglers). They not only use several different hooking methods (bait, lures, trebles, singles, barbed/barbless), they also tested many release methods (including the idiot "air time" & drop on the boat floor method- call ODWF for verification). The overall mortality rate on these C&R'd springers was less than 7% (2 years of testing so far). These tests are being conducted for input on 2001/2002 spring chinook reg.'s when all hatchery springers will return fin-clipped so that native springers can be released (as has been the case for steelhead fishing for some time now in Oregon). The test results will be used for both angler education for best release methods & for documentaion to the Fed.s that C&R will protect the dwindling stocks of native fish, so fishing seasons can remain open. And yes I do think angler education is effective. - Steve

HEY BOB. The really big somthinorother. How come you're sittin' this one out. No comments on one of your favorite causes? No support for Salmon & Reel's writein efforts?? What happend to you? Did you stop reading your own moderated site? you couldn't have stopped caring. And by the way, who is the good lookin' babe in the oval givin air time to the big nate hen?

B-Gray You are wrong there only exported timber!!!

Fishtick ... No, not sitting this one out. My days already run close to 18 hours this time of year, and although I usually read every night, I don't post too much during Feb through mid-April or so. Days would be longer yet without the help of "Fishgal", pictured above.

I've alluded to this very study before in posts ... a friend of a friend was one of the guides involved in it ... simply backs up what many of us have been saying for a long time - done correctly, C&R has a minimal impact.

I support and applaud their efforts for the forwarding of opinions and info to the commision ... we all need to become involved and sacrifice something for the fish.

And Sniveks:
1) I thought state timberland sales went to schoools ... not just exported.
2) 300 foot buffer?? Yeah, explain the giant spruce trees less than 10 ft. from the banks of the Pysht that were cut two or three weeks back.
3) Please keep your posts clean, or your stay here will be short-lived. Thank you.

BOB There is less then 3million ft of state sale timber in a year..And as for keepin it clean I see lots of posts with alot worse swearing then what I have done.You just dont like it because you dont agree with me.I wont be here long this is my last post I dont associate with TREE HUGGERS!!!As for the spruce I dont know nor do I care!!!

[This message has been edited by sniveks (edited 04-06-2000).]

Sniveks, the key words in you last post "nor do I care" summarize a lot of the problems with the timber industry. Maybe you should care a little, chances are your children won't earn living from natural resources like you do. Look to the future once in a while.

[This message has been edited by salmontackler (edited 04-06-2000).]

this whole c&r thing has gone whacko! i personally don't keep wild steelies. but i will never rag on a person that does when it is legal to do so. c&r is also a personal thing. don't rag on a person because they choose to not engage in c&r. buffers along streams are not not always enforced in timber country. barbless hooks have their own problems as they tend to hook deeper than barbed. again personal choice. don't waste your time sending anything to the wdfw commission as they will never respond to you. to effect change you need to put pressure on your legislator. how do you think we were able to somewhat save reiter ponds. push the elimination of keeping unclipped steelhead at anytime with your legislator. the whole demeanor on this as well as other sites is exactly why us sportpersons do not and will not have a voice in olympia. we come across asa bunch of self rightous redneck thugs with a complete inability to listen too, understand, or respect the opinions of others. when a person makes a mistatement of fact and you respond give the facts to set them straight but do it in a constructive way. you get more flys with honey than you do with vinegar and my jaw hurts from all the sourpusses on this site right now. i have come to the realization that as long as we continue to act in this fashion instead of working together to make the politicos change OUR fish are screwed! you may not agree with the WAA but the idea is what is important. remember you can't please everyone all the time. just not realistic. food for thought!

Oscar, the commsission will listen and they do respond. They have responded to several of my emails, even called me on the phone on one occasion.
Nice Try, Oscar

[This message has been edited by salmontackler (edited 04-06-2000).]

I would just like to take a few moments and thank sniveks for his insightful input, and the brilliant analysis he provided the board during his shortlived stay here......ahh, nevermind

well salmontackler you surely must be the exception to the rule. i have emailed the commission on at least a half dozem times during the reiter issue and never received a response. same for a lot of others that have been involved in that issue and others. what is your trick? are you an ex wdfw employee, ex legislator?

Oscar, notice the caps key? We are consulting the commision on two seperate issues.You are asking for $$$'s, while I am asking the commision to look at current regulations regarding C-n-R. You are asking the commision to spend money they don't have. While I am asking them to review the current policy of retaining Wild Steelhead.

Leave a phone # that they can reach you at, or maybe direct your comments to a current commissioner, re=Lisa Pelly. Maybe you will have better results