Does anyone know exactly how these two items are going to be accomplished ? I know what the words say but not the process. My first reaction is what tools?


FROM WDFW PRESENTATION TO THE COMMISSION:

WDFW and Quinault Nation have developed an in-season monitoring tool used to evaluate the abundance of the current year’s coho return. Evaluating the catch per effort during the Quinault Nation fishery has shown a close relationship to final escapement for coho in the Chehalis basin. WDFW will utilize this tool in 2022 to monitor the progress of the Chehalis coho return and adjust fisheries, as needed, if the return does not look like it will achieve preseason objectives.

WDFW will implement a fishery monitoring plan to evaluate effort and catch during WDFW sport fisheries. This is a new tool available to Grays Harbor fisheries this fall and will provide information needed to implement adaptive management actions if needed, as provided in the Adaptive Management section of the policy.

The fact that they’re looking hard at in-season monitoring makes it seem like a two fish bag is assured. That way they can reduce if needed. Hard to picture the department utilizing in-season monitoring to increase limits.

Yup got that...............so exactly what are the new tools? Different colored ink?

I talked with some of the managers from way back and the used to do in-season updates all the time, just like in Puget Sound. New tool? Nah, just nobody reads history.

Creel based or commercial reports?

The updates used for salmon are generally based on commercial fish ticket data; required of all sales from fisherman to dealer.

The tribal catch thing I get and we used it with the model to get a feel for things be it a bit late due to tribal catch reports lagging. Monitoring Rec has been done with creel census for years it is the new tool referenced that I find puzzling.

I’ve heard sonar floated quite a bit recently for Steelhead. MAYBE?

Problem with sonar is that it counts everything that passes; doesn't ID fish. We rarely have a 100% clean passage.

Again, way back when, dealers were required to report sales rapidly. WDF had samplers who examined and summarized tickets daily. We had 95 (goal) to 99% of a day's catch within 3 days of the fishery. Co-management has allowed that to slip to where I saw some fisheries unreported months after they occurred.

But, managing by auto-pilot is cheaper, requires fewer changes, etc.

Only other thing I could think of is maybe a reporting system for guides but that would only work once the bulk of the fish are in the tributaries. Would require all guides to be honest as well. Not gonna happen.

Any reporting syestem requires honesty. And in my experience, but this back a few decades, let's just say that if every fisher person (rec, commercial I, NI, BC, AK, illegals) made an accurate report of when, where, and how many of each species was killed we would be amazed at the total number.

Thinks of that when you complain about how poorly the managers manage. They can only use the information provided by the people who actually catch the fish. The old garbage-in garbage out applies.

Agreed. I’m not at all complaining about how it’s managed relating to data.

Rivrguy,

From what you posted above, it looks like the "new" tool is QIN coho CPUE during specific statistical weeks. Call me skeptical, but there is generally too much variability in small fisheries - and all of GH combined is small these days - for any correlation to be very accurate or consistently accurate. We used to do this all the time on the larger Skagit and get R-squared values like 0.5, 0.6, when any value less than 0.9 is statistically weak. WDFW can use this tool, and they will get a number, but that doesn't mean the number will even be close to accurate.

THX SG that helps and if your correct then I don't know comes to mind. GH is rain driven and depending on flows fall salmon can start moving in numbers as early as august (high flows) or as late as mid Nov (dry or drought years). I can see how the QIN numbers can be helpful but the major movements can be before or after the tribal seasons and are many years. I remember a couple of years early 90's that the movement was not until 3rd week of Nov and it was about half colored fish and half right out of the ocean. Took me by surprise we went from a couple hundred Coho on hand to nearly 10k in one night before we closed the trap! Bloody near rolled the herd when the DO nearly bottomed out.

I e-mailed staff requesting clarification and I will post it up when I get a response.

04/13/2022



Rivrguy and I go "round and round" on this. If you want a "quick idea of fish movement", then sonar seems to be the way to go.

If you want species of fish, hatchery/wild, fresh/colored up, then as they are going to the fish buyer or in the fish house would be the best way to go. We are know that with technology the way it is today, WDFW could have a complete, current, trend on what is happening when a active netting schedule is taking place. Yes, there would have to be "WDFW personnel at the buyer site or in the fish house" but this would be the most accurate way to go.

It would take WDFW and the tribes to buy into, "quick reporting" and for WDFW personnel to work different schedules, to be available when the fish were at the buyer or in fish house. As Co-managers of the resources, the trust factor should be there!!!!

I just got a IPhone 13 Pro, its amazing what is possible to do. From fish buyer or fish house, numbers should be at, lets say, Region 6 Office in Montesano, in minutes. Granted, there would have to be a person in Montesano to tally all the data but could go far in "quick, in season, management"!!!!

I did a lot of those updates and the r-squareds we used were much higher, in the .8s to .9s. But, regardless of the r-squareds, we used the number that, when we looked back after the season, was more accurate. If the forecast was more accurate (closer to the actual run size) we were more confident in it. If the updates were more accurate (in the past) we used that. Accuracy was most important. In looking at about a decade's worth of performance in PS, the last update of the season was almost always way more accurate than the forecast.

The risk of using updates is that they are performed in the terminal areas. Consrvation closures at that point fall heavily on the tribes (the last last really big fishery) and in-river sports. This was the reason for Hoh v. Baldridge as the conservation burden was borne almost entirely by the terminal Tribes.

As Drifter noted, we have the technology to get the catch data into one central spot way faster than we used to do it. It would cost staff time. And, the pessimist in me says, it would open the door to direct in-season management for conservation and even allocation. This would still be unpopular with the Tribes as the "outside" fisheries will always get their fish while the inside guys only get them if they are available (if we update). If we don't update, everybody (except the gravel) gets their fish.

04/13/2022

I listened to the taped meeting when Grays Harbor was the topic on the "hot seat".

I got the feeling that not all Commission members were up to date on items like 3 out of 5, 5% impact and not really just how many voted which way.

WDFW got some extra $$$$$$$ to spent on a "new tool".....while it might be a new tool for many in WDFW management NOW, I believe it to be the same "tool" used in the late 70's and 80's.

Grays Harbor had personnel at boat launches....when you got to the launch the questions started, catch any fish?, release any fish?, see many caught? Did you lose any fish? and I'm sure there were others.

If you caught fish, then they wanted to "wand" the fish, to see if wire coded....IF IT WAS wired coded, then you were asked if the head could be cut so research could be done off the wire code. At some point you were told that the head would be entered in a drawing......I did allow them to take some of the heads....AND I DID GET a winner, lol, $75.00.

I don't know the ages of all WDFW upper management people but some might not have even been born......so for them it could be the New Tool??????

Close, Drifter. Back then, folks started at the bottom (sampler, spawner surveyor, etc.) and worked their way up to leadership. Now, they bring in administrators and upper level bios from outside. Consequently, there is an almost complete lack of institutional memory; nobody remembers what used to be done.

Add to that the local stakeholders who do remember and know what at least used to be possible..........

Sonar in GH can count fish as done in Alaska and other places the problem is that we flood which really limits any location. Sonar cannot tell you which fish species it is counting as three salmon species can and are likely are present at the same time in GH. While information like 1000 fish went through yesterday is interesting it is particularly useless in GH because of the three species being present at the same time. Add to that is the fact that Nov river conditions would make it nearly impossible keep a sonar operational with mud & debris. It can and should be used where the streams and run timing permit but Grays Harbor isn't it.

That makes sense. That said, I’m really hoping for better fishing conditions this November. October was great for conditions, although it led to a lot of stagnant fish and not a lot of fresh movers in my experience. Only made it out twice in November, and then the early shutdown of course.