To all drift boaters who think they need a river to themselves, you already have plenty of them, such as the Queets and the Kalama.
It is time that the power boats have a river or two to themselves, and the Wynooche should be one of them from top to bottom year round.
We come to fish, not snivel. A sportsman cannot be discriminated against based upon the type of boat he uses. I'm tired of being courteous
to all other fishermen and not receiving the same courtesy in return. I don't own this river and neither do you!
Sharpen your hooks and impellers, I'll see you there.

Although we must respect all of our desires to enjoy the rivers and attempt to catch a fish or two, I'm afraid you're way over-exagerating the amount of water which remains quiet and relatively undisturbed, not to mention the intrinsic value some find during a day on the river.

Have you ever began a float in the darkness and experienced daylight when the only sound is that which is made by your own muscles and nature? If you had, you'd understand how annoying it is to hear an outboard grow increasingly louder until it comes roaring into the hole which just moments ago was filled with your thoughts. Not to mention how it feels when you got-up way too early to float to the tail-out of a drift, only to have a 'sled blast in front of you, drift bait through it for five minutes, and then churn their way through the other water you wanted to fish.

I'm not bashing 'sledders-they are both an enjoyable and effective tool to pursue sportfish. However, on smaller rivers, they are not only a distraction but also disruptive to the natural contour of the river. Why else would you have stainless impellors?

As for the "large" number of rivers excluding outboards, I really don't think two is a very substantial number in comparison to those available.

As always, we need to find a way for everyone to enjoy our rivers.

Some of you guys just don't get it! The river is TOO crowded. If you don't live around here and pay taxes etc... Go fish
somewhere else and ruin another river. Leave
the Nooch alone for awhile and take all your garbage with you instead of leaving it on the bank. People that live in Grays Harbor really care about their land and have done
just fine until everyone made the Nooch their river.

Herschal and Local,
I have disagreement with both of your lines of thinking. Herschal, the Nooch is way to small a river to be blastin up past Black Creek in a sled, period. I own a sled, fish the nooch and would support a ban on power boats upstream from Black Creek. As for the local issue, I live in Olympia and consider the Nooch, Satsop and the Chehalis all to be local rivers to me. I do take out what I bring in and then some. I have read the past threads on sled bans in both the Nooch and the Satsop, not sure if they are referring to the entire Satsop or just above forks. If it was above the forks I could live with that. There is plenty of good river and holes downstream from there to fish it in a sled. The Hump was mentioned also and I can't see were they (drift boaters) have complaints there, unless your talking up by the hatchery. We all need to figure out how to fish together and get along.
Tight lines, Jeff

Herschel,

Like most sledders on this river you are missing the point completely. This issue has nothing to do with snob drift boaters wanting a river all to themselves. At some point, you have to ask yourself, "when is a river too crowded?" A river can only take so much pressure before an enjoyable float is near impossible. This happens weekly on the wynoochee. IT IS TOO SMALL A RIVER FOR THE SLED TRAFFIC IT RECIEVES.

I have quite a few friends who have sleds (some of which I occassionally fish out of) that won't even consider running the nooch because of the pressure already there, safety issues, and last but certainly not least, common courtesy. They rcognize it for the small river that it is and can quite clearly see that bringing sleds into the picture only makes matters worse. Why can't you? This is common sense.

You apparently have the attitude of "I need to get a fish at all costs-to hell with everyone else!" Pretty sad. Hopefully, someday, you will come to understand how your actions effect everyone else and will think before choose the wynoochee to launch your boat.

Barbless, Local, Salmonhead, Eric:

33 plus years in Grays Harbor, live in Cental Park so Wynoochee is close and I know the river. I have both, drift and small 14' jet boat, I used to fish the river from Shaffer to White Bridge, from Carter Creek to White Bridge(until shut off), and the "zoo" from cross over bridge to Black Creek....bottom line...it's easier for me to fish from my jet boat. I know the river very well, I only fish when the water flow is at a level that I can safely "run" up. I "row down" or use my electic motor.
It's "not" too small a river to have small jet boats on....I fish the river 10 months of the yrs., not many times do I have trouble getting around.
I've done the drift boat bit, been with the crowd of 20+ boats, cast and go..no fun that way either, might be quiet but sure not a enjoyable day.
Retired, so I'll be there, White Bridge and Black Creek areas....Trying to enjoy, and doing what I have a "right to enjoy" while I still can do them!!!!!!

To All the Anti Jet boaters on the Wynoochee:

1. Work on getting "All the Guides" off that river....both jet and drift boat.

2. Get more access sites.....that way spread the "traffic out".

Have a good day!!!, "worse day fishing is still better than the best day working"

Heres my 2cents worth...

ERIC: i agree it is to small a river for the slad traffic it recieves.

DRIFTER WA: With your kind of money you can afford to move or just fish everyday with your sled down at the Cowlitz. I do agree with you on to many damn GUIDES on the river.

LOCAL: Your right river is to crowded and yes they can go somewhere else.

HERSCHAL: Looking forward into running into you on the NOOCH, LOCK&LOAD cause your going to need to with your attitude.

This river used to be a nice quite river to fish but thanks to people like Big mouth JOHN, and Balcombes reel and rod for telling everyone and there sled from all over the state about the river its getting to be alot less fun to go out fishing!

Drifter,

I too live by the river-I'm probably minutes from you. Though I can't claim 30 plus years experience here I can claim 20+. A reply to some of your points:

1) The only way the guides will leave the river is with a motor ban.

2) Times change. Not so many years ago, I could live with amount of sled traffic on the river but their use is increasing exponentially. It's too much. Singularly, the river could handle "a" sled as you state but not a dozen or more. What I see happening is ever since the cowlitz blew chunks in 95-98 the guides have shifted to easy pickings on the nooch. The non-guides with sleds see everyone else and think "if they are-so can I"
So now, you have a mushroom effect where the sledders have lost sight of the bigger picture and the effect their sheer numbers are having on the fishery. It is litterally out of control.

Desperate times call for desperate measures. The river is not the same river it was10-15 years ago. It is hitting critical mass and the issue has to be addressed at the county or state level.

Everyone has a right to fish if they buy the license,but the only way we are going to save this great river is by motor restictions...no other way it's too small I,ve seen a few smaller sleds that did ok but the majority are over sized and out of control I had a close call last year the dicknose almost ran me over I was on my cat he was doing about 50 and flipped me off after missing me by a foot or less yelling at me to get out of the way( I remembered you're face and boat and payback is coming)It's a few like this that are going to ruin it, someone is going to get injured them we all can start pointing fingers all over again ,this is going to get worse before it gets better,it's gonna get ugly,I won't yield next time,I get hit I'm gonna own that sled and then I'll take it to the cowlitz where it belongs...

------------------
Row Quietly and fish a Catraft( formerly Steelheader boy)
<'))>><

[This message has been edited by Osprey (edited 05-12-2000).]

Osprey,

If you're going to tangle with a sled while on a Cat to make a point, you'd better come up with a different plan. You might find yourself in the same situation as the pedestrian who steps into the crosswalk to show the speeding car that he has the right-of-way. Maybe he does, but getting turned into street pizza is a tough way to prove your point. You might wind up owning this guy's sled, but you might also find it tough to fish from a wheelchair while holding a rod in your teeth.

I agree that particular sled pilot needs his head either examined or held underwater for a while, but winning a collision with a sled is not an easy task.

And what is this crap about "a river or two" for sleds? Are you serious? How much freaking water do you need, sled guy? There is hardly a shortage of sled water around here, but the Nooch above white brigde when the water at Save Creek is about 600-700 cfs AIN'T it! I don't care how small your sled is, when that water's that low, the sleds don't belong there.

Not all the Nooch sled pilots are inconsiderate, but the problem lies with the fact that a small number of sleds being run by clowns can ruin the river for all. I guess that inconsiderate sledders are might actually help drift boaters by getting themselves barred above Black Creek ( I think the spillway is a better cutoff) .


Fish on...........

Thanks for bringing me back to earth Dan my mouth was writing checks my body would'nt cash ,got my self a little excited no sleds above Black creek!!!!

------------------
Row Quietly and fish a Catraft( formerly Steelheader boy)
<'))>><

Hey Local,

Get off your high horse!! Do you really believe that a river belongs more to you than it does to me because you live closer to it? No wonder the term 'local' occasionally gets used in a negative context. What is happening to the Nooch is the same thing that happens everywhere, eventually, as more rivers become overfished, or over netted. The masses move on to the next victim, which in this case is your beloved local fav. Don't be so stupid as to think you are the first one to suffer this fate, nor the last. And please, enough with the 'not in my backyard B.S.'. YOU ARE THE SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!!

Herschal
I could'nt agree more. The nooch is big enough for everyone that wants to fish. Wish the crybabies would stay home-they only get in the way.My impeller is sharp see ya there. Fishing Junkie

Your right Backlash ll, They will go on to the next river when they are doing ruining the Nooch. The Problem is the river they
ruined prior to the Nooch was the Satsop.
Whats next? Maybe we can all go over to
Richland to fish and dump our garbage or
knock down someones fence because the river
belongs to everyone. That doesn't sound right
does it ? That because it not !!!!!!

I live in Central Park also, and learned how to fish on the Nooch when I was a youngan, still am a youngan, but when I was quite younger than I am now. I have seen it change over the years, exspecially summer runs! Eric, wrote an article in 1988 in STS that was about this subject, and that was in 1988, 12 years later, nothing has improved! I fish the Nooch from bank and from my drift boat. I have fished it in my sled also. I don't feel that a total ban of all sleds is necesary. I do feel that from the Intake up should be no motorized boats. I have never had any encounters with a sled that has pissed me off enough to try to get revenge the following season, but I have seen some idiot boat operators run up runs that had a bunch of reds in it and stir them all up. The Wynoochee river is a great river to fish for almost all of the species of salmonoides. Look at all of the people that respond to Wynoochee topics on this bb, holy hell if everyone on this board that responds to similar posts about the Nooch fishes it, no wonder why it is so crowded, and this is only a small percentage of people! The river is really really crowded, bottom line. I just feel that by spreading out the crowds, it would make to a better day fishing. So lets work together and see what comes about us.

Thanks,
Andy Matthews

I can't tell you how many run ins iv'e had with sleds and guides in sleds. I sometimes think when you buy a sled you turn into an inconsiderate slob. There is a guide that shows up on the Snoqualime from time to time that just dosen't care about anyone or anything but his boat and clients. I know that there are alot of you that are good but you are in the minority.

I think the guides should be issued a number to be displayed promently on thier boat so when they do something stupid you could complain to the WDFW. If they get too many complaints when it comes time for renewal they don't get a licence.

.02 cents and a little common sense from a guy who is not fishing the 'Nooch. The obvious and most prominent thing glaring from this thread is that over-population may have replaced greed as the main root of most evil. Same for the rivers here in NW Oregon. Some thoughts from this fishermen that has bankfished, driftboated, and sledfished many many rivers in the entire NW region for 35+ years: With the increasing populations in general and on our rivers, common sense, proper riverside communication, and tollerance simply have to pervail now and hence forth. Hopefully, appropriate public education can do an adequate job; otherwise it may force government &/or voter decided guidelines as to how our rivers can be used. I don't know how common my sense actually is after reading these posts, but I will offer some insight for whatever it's worth to you. I fully understand the driftboater's feeling of lost river serenity when the noicy sleds roar thru. Do those driftboaters realize that the bankangler has some of the same feelings as he fishes a pristine drift for a bit only to have a big metal driftboat coming floating and oar splashing thru his holding water? Does the driftboater concerned about the impact of sleds upon reds realize that more than half of driftboaters do more damage to spawning gravel with their oar tips & boat bottoms scraping than a sled whisking past w/o touching gravel does? Not to say there is no sled impact- motorboat wake causes bank errosion and some gravel impact. Even wader's boots cause impact on the gravel. We cannot fish w/o impacting the rivers to a degree- we can only keep it reasonable. However, we can quit focusing only on other user group impacts in trying to justify exclusion. Some more common sense with as little bias as possible: First, living closer to a river does NOT give someone more intrinsic right to fish it! Period! I have a right to come up to fish the Nooch with my WA lic. just as people from Aberdeen have a right to fish rivers near me in Oregon. I may not like it, but I have the wisdom to accept the reality that this country is a common land, NOT a group of divided territories! Second, I do believe that we are at a point in the NW that we need to restrict the use of sleds and other motorized boats, at least on portions of smaller rivers. I would absolutely love to run my small wake causing, flat bottom 18' Alumaweld sled up the lower ends of the Tillamook area rivers for 'nooks & steelies! Big time! But I know that these smaller rivers simply can't handle intersecting boat traffic between the numerous driftboats coming down and sleds & motorized drftboats coming up. Both from a safety standpoint and a practical impact standpoint; not to mention the poor bankfishers w/o a boat. So when ODFW banned motor use on boats above Hwy. 101 on many of the medium to smaller coastal rivers I accepted that as proper common sense. I don't know what the Nooch looks like, but if it's running 700 cfs and there is a lot of pressure then there should be an established deadline above which motors are banned. As a loose rule of thumb in such a senario, such a deadline should be at a point where sleds would more likely become a danger to river users &/or where the river is just too small & delicate to handle the combined traffic. Also to be considered is an area where most of the driftboat and sled overlap occurs. A deadline could be put just below that point. There are many large rivers in Oregon & Washington for me and my fellow sledders to enjoy. A bonus of sled fishing restricted lower portions of smaller rivers too is plenty. I cringe to think the following may have to happen, but in the not to distant future it may have to: At some point, if we still have enough salmon & steelhead to fish for, river population concerns may dictate that such guidelines as odd/even day accessability and river use sections will be needed. You and your fishing buddies may have to apply for an odd or even day license (trying to get the same days together). Eventually many rivers will need section restrictions for upper 1/3 bankfishing, middle 1/3 driftboat fishing, and lower 1/3 sled fishing. Where applicable, the sections could be rotated by user groups. - In the meantime common sense and courtesy are a MUST. If some rude and selfish guide or other fishermen commonly fishes outside of these guidelines then people may have to get over the "don't snitch mentality" that you and I grew up with and start making collective reports to local fish police or sheriffs on the individual offender so that he may be banned for a period of time, to return later on a probational basis. - I suggest that some people representating each 'Nooch user group meet to discuss the issue. If you think this post is worthy, take copies to a meeting to use as a starting place. If you can't achieve compromise agreement then I suggest you vote on an arbitration agreement to set a proper motor deadline. You should be able to appoint an appropriate local unbiased person to arbitrate, rather than to have to rely on the apparent idiom within the WDFW. If you can't come up with an unbiased local, I will offer to be a knowledgable and unbiased arbitrator to hear opinions in a meeting and then tour the river and I will give you a good opinion where a motor ban deadline should be- to use as a set arbitration or a voluntary experiment. It would be an interesting co-operative achievement that could set a NW precedent among fishermen, w/o having to rely on the government! Just get it decided in meetings and then stake an agreed to deadline sign in view on the bank; either on public or permissioned private property. Let me know if you come up with enough interest in the idea. You may have to deal with a nay saying sled guide by group peer pressure and letting him know that non-cooperation will likely lead to bad publicity for his business & the strong possibilty that the WDFW could ban motors altogether if they have to be petitioned to get involved (likely won't occur from a guide or regular fisherman after such an explaination). If you 'Nooch users can set a successful "get along usage agreement" w/o government intervention, that has the strong potential to set a great "model" for user group co-operation that might just well spread thru much of the N.W. in the crowded years to come.- Pardon such a long post. I feel strongly about need for proper solutions to this growing problem. - Steve Hanson (ReelTruth1@aol.com)

[This message has been edited by Reel Truth (edited 05-14-2000).]

Man! No wonder any ponytailed, tree-huggin,net-settin, antigun mom's, group can beat the political pants off us sportsman and take away our rights! What a bunch of whinners. The Nooch isnt owned by anyone (local or otherwise), not all sled owners are bad...or good. Not all driftboaters are normal....or abnormal. You-all sound like you want to use the same favorite toy, at the same time, and there's only one to play with! Do what we teach our kids...share....be nice...cause it the "right" thing to do! From a mile above Black Creek goes to those normal (and abnormal) oarsman. From there on down, its us crazy (and not so crazy) sledmen. Act like an adult, think of others, and we'll all have a great time...everytime! Act like a jerk and sure enough the State will set the rules and we'll all surely loose.

RT,
I think your post gave us all an idea. I agree that we need to have a meeting of some sort rather it be in Aberdeen, Montesano, where ever. Can we get Trout Unlimited to lend us there building for a night? Anyone know? The subject of having a leader of the group for each party. I think Eric, would be a good one for the driftboaters side. Eric has written many stories that deal with just this. So what does anyone say? Lets not be lazy about this, remember summer runs are in another few weeks and you know that the Nooch will be packed with guides and there sleds... RT, I will take you for a trip down the Nooch for summers or salmon or something so you can scope things out and put in your .02

Thanks,
Andy Matthews