Potter is 100% right!!!! Thanks Potter you beat me to it.

------------------
Tight Lines!!

The way I see it is that the state F&G is scared to cause any conflicts among the natives. We as sportfishermen do pay a lot of fees and do our part to keep our rivers thriving for the future. But is our future for the good of the natives only? I think that affirmitive action does not belong here.
I am not jealous that I cant fish at the ladder but I am frustruated when their is no limits for the natives as far as fishing goes. I saw a guy that weekend carry a least a dozen fish back to his car. we need to estabalish a fair rule of play here, and that is I don't know. I guess the best thing is buy a license and follow the rules and that is fair enough.

I just want to let fishtick know that he has my vote for president!!!

The same government that REQUIRES our children to pledge their allegiance to "One nation...indivisible,..." RULES that we are really two nations sharing common geographic boundaries. Anybody confused?

Can't we just enjoy being able to fish a river that has not been available for a long time. This is a beautiful spot. I was there midweek a week ago. I was around the local guys who were fishing they were great no whiners. Very happy for the opportunity. Anyone who fishes like the tribal fisherman were doing cannot call themselves a sportfisherman who needs a spillway?

Potter and Dick,

What you saw as a flaw in my long post could be an oversight on your part. This whole thread had dealt with tribes of the Columbia region, mostly east of the Cascades, thus the unconquered Western Wash. tribes you brought in are not a factor in this discussion. The unfairnesses mentioned were of Col. tributaries such as Icicle Creek and the mainstem Col. Indian springer netting and selling of fish thru May that was far above any "50% of fish deemed harvestable". In fact, it was 100% of fish the NMFS & Col. Tribal Comm. deemed harvestable. ZERO % for sportfishermen that paid for these fish. While it's true that sportsmen get to have dwindling limited sportfishing seasons on some tributaries, so do the Indians. And a lot of good guy Indians that have a sporting attitude do sportfish along side of us! But on top of the utter outright Col. injustice fiasco, how could the Col. Tribal Commission, with reluctant abettance from the NMFS and Wash./Ore. Fish. Dept., then rub very unethical salt in an unfair big wound by allowing Indians to also slaughter stacked up springers by a hatchery gait. Hardly intelligent or just, especially in today's climate. That's why I wondered if the powers within the Tribal Comm. are trying to stir up a modern day uprising, rather than consider cultural healing fairness?? Does anyone reading this thread know them so they can ask them to read and respond to the issues here on this BB? As for W. Wash. Tribes Potter, are they staying within the treaties you mentioned, particularly concerning the taking of salmon & steelhead on the Oly. Pen?? Sure I am among a throng of modern thinking people that dislikes those treaties (you read the credible reasons why in my other long post), whether they were orchestrated by primative dumbshit Euros that don't exist anymore, or not! I am also among many who HATE the cheating abusive overharvest of these fish above treaty provisions! Especially the Indian take of wild native fish. Both are simply indefensible! Now you are welcome Potter or Dick to correct anything that is actually definitively wrong within my posts, and once enlightened I will appologize. Think before you try to correct claims of Indian overharvest issues on the Oly. Pen, because there could be a witness list as long as an Indian net, along with some pictures (I have been told. I don't personally have pictures). What do you say now? And for God's sake, please don't attempt to point out some anchient Euro wrongs trying to justify modern Indian wrongs! For a man that does such will be the fool! ....... By the way, I dislike having to use the labels Indian or Euro or African American. Unfortunately, this society makes it necessary in order to discuss inequities, such as those discussed here, because this society still wrongly makes labeled divisions among us. I don't believe in someone being a Euro or an Indian. Rather, I believe people are either good or bad, right or wrong, honest or not, and especially either fair or a hypocrit. ... Oh, and those that know how to catch fish and those that don't.


[This message has been edited by Fishtick (edited 06-03-2000).]

Fishstick,
Have you ever studied the early history of comercial netting of the Columbia? How OUR forefathers RAPED that beautiful river!!! What they did to the run of 100lb kings that use to spawn in Canada How about the MILLIONS of pounds of fish they had to throw over the barges cause the caneries didn't have room to process. You want to talk about rotting fish!!!! Oh, how about the DAMS!!! As far as the Oly Pen. lets talk about the Elwa. There USE to be 100lb KINGS on that river until OUR forefathers put the FIRST mayjor dam on any river in the states. This river had those 100lb KINGS also. MY (white) forefathers did more HARM to these fish than all the tribes put together. Back when they were RAPING the Columbia the tribes were not fishing with NETS!!! Enough said

------------------
Tight Lines!!

[This message has been edited by Dick (edited 06-03-2000).]

I wish people would quite saying"our forefathers" or we raped the Columbia, etc. My forefathers had NOTHING to do with it. Some whites screwed it up big time. Yes they are to blame but myself and many others are not. I get tired of paying the price for something I had no part of.The dam on the Elwa was put in by private industry to supply power to private industry I believe (My ancestor was milking cows in Wisconsin).

Don't punish the sons for the sins of the father.

Your right about the thread being aimed at Col. River area and maybe I'm too sensitive (is that possible on this board . I guess I was replying to the last part of your post:

"that still think that today's Indians have some kind of intrinsic rights over others because..."

However, I think both sides have way too much ammo to play the blame game. We would be better off working towards fixing issues; for instance, trying to get more money for better inforcement of all fisheries. Maybe develop better management tools and methods. It's all going to take money and cooperation.

[This message has been edited by potter (edited 06-03-2000).]

Right on Bruce! Comercial fisherman raped the Columbia,(no one related to me) We need to modify treaties and increase law inforcement as potter mentioned across the state.

Im in on this.... I'm getting so F##*$#g tired of hearing about Sh#t in the past that we cannot change We need to make our voices heard NOW so we canmake some changes to modern day issues here...The reason this hole post started was aquestion:is it fair HELL NO!!!!!!!!

------------------
Row Quietly and fish a Catarft :)----<'))>>{
Release all Wild Fish

Dick,


You are certainly correct about the lack of foresight and fish run damaging affects of dams and commercial netting that your forfathers did. Where you are very incorrect is to package and target all present day people with white skin for blame. I'm a white caucasion whose ancestors came over to this country after Indian treaties were signed and were farmers who had nothing to do with dams (they got their water from nearby creeks in eastern Montana). Even though your forefathers apparently were involved and to blame (are you sure about that?), you should not be held responsible and blame yourself for what they did before you existed! You should consider what can be done now! For example, since you prefer to catagorise people by skin color, there are many white people attempting to correct the wrongs of your forefathers with a strong movement to get the government to remove dams, starting with 4 Snake R. dams and the tradgic one on the Elwa. Even though you are not responsible for the past wrongs, perhaps if you get involved in those causes you can exponge the unfortunate strong guilt that you wrongfully carry within your heart. More importantly you can help correct things now, instead of uselessly dwelling on the past!!! You have come very close to being the fool I warned about in my previous post. And you can see what other people think about that in reply posts! ..... Potter, I have read many of your posts and get the impression that your ancestors were Native American? I don't care. What I do care about is the fairness and goodness that I sense about you from your second reply post. Perhaps you prefer to appropriately live in today's world? If so, you have the opportunity to help correct some of the wrongs stated above about unfair fish take by present day Indians. Let's all live within today's conditions and work together to correct wrongs and inequities.


[This message has been edited by Fishtick (edited 06-03-2000).]

Fishtick,
No, I don't blame my self. I have three relatives who are retired com. fishermen. I blame them for what they did. I was just tired of people bashing the natives. I should have worded it better. Believe me I carry no guilt at all!!! I have been envoled in the removeing of the dams (Elwa) amongst other things for thirty years!! It makes me sick to think about those huge fish gone forever thats all. Next time I will word it better.

------------------
Tight Lines!!

When I posted this question it was to ask a question, I am not here to say that the natives are the bad seed. It's affirmitive action, if any one group was treated differently it would not be fair, it just happened to be the natives have this special rights, lets just make it equal.

Just a little gas on the fire here. The problems all described above are pretty much isolated to Washington state.. The other states with the same issues have done a lot better job of looking forward.. No nets, no keeping wild fish etc. I have been hoping that the WWA that you guys are trying to start will get you sport fisherman somewhere.

SPECIAL RIGHTS WERE GRANTED BY THE TREATIES AND YOU WILL NEVER CHANGE THEM SO LIVE WITH IT AND QUIT CRYING AROUND LIKE A BUNCH OF SNIVELING BRATS, BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR NEXT YOU MAY JUST LOOSE HALF OF your WILDLIFE.

Sloth... don't even get us started on wildlife Like... Elk herds that our sports dollars have tried to restablish only to be slaugtered by the tribes and now you want more hey you guys killed all your'e Elk leave our's alone like the Hamma Hamma and Dosewalips just to name a few

------------------
Row Quietly and fish a Catarft ----<'))>>{
Release all Wild Fish

[This message has been edited by Osprey (edited 06-05-2000).]

A couple more cents:

Some have reported that the treaties are old or outdated, that this isn't the way things are done now. Age has nothing to do with a legally binding document. Our Constitution is older than the treaties. As society progresses, the Constitution has been 'updated' by amendments that reflect societal standards present at the time of the amendment. Given that the treaties are legally binding by the U.S. and various Tribal Nations, it will take a similar degree of legal amendment to 'update' or overturn them. Not something the WDFW (or NMFS for that matter) can do by itself.

Amendments are made when the bulk of society deems it necessary and starts the political or legal process for change. In the case of the Indian Treaties, I'm afraid that the bulk of society is pro-Treaty and we sporties, like it or not,are a small special interest group.

I prefer to think of this situation from a legal perspective and as a whole we are better off with laws that can't be changed on a whim. Issues of fairness, ethical behavior, ethnic division, and such are bandied about to support ones position rather than to look at the reality of the situation. This is when things start to rapidly digress.

For example, there have been several posts, worded variously and tinged with PC, that basically state that Indians are bad when they don't act like the rest of us. Right or wrong, ethical or unethical, this is a legal argument when it comes to fisheries. Its not worth getting worked up about and its wrong to place blame on WDFW, the Indian Commission, NMFS, the Tribes, or 'outdated' treaties. Another example is the mention of 'affirmative action'. This is not affirmative action. Treaty Rights are not special rights, but arrangements negotiated by land owners years ago for the transfer of that land from one hand to another.

In the specific case of Columbia River springers, this may very well be a case where the allocation of fish does not follow the rule of the treaties. I think this is what sporties should concentrate on so that such allocations are not made in the future. I for one would like to know the specific and official reasoning behind the allocation, or lack thereof, to the sporties.

I guess I'm posting this in response to what I consider some pretty carved in stone legal stuff (at least for now), but folks get around this because of a lack of knowledge or the convenient blame target in the Tribes. Because the Tribes can do some things that we cannot, we throw about arguments like "unfair rights","special rights,"we paid for this", when this really misses the point and simply starts a cascade of fingerpointing and blame. Just like the Constitution, the Indian Treaties are the law of the land and it will take a major Federal challenge to change.

If netting is ever going to be diminished, its going to take a concerted effort between the public (not just sporties), the Feds (the courts), and the Tribes. Its going to be hard enough without excessive emotional finger pointing.

[This message has been edited by obsessed (edited 06-05-2000).]

[This message has been edited by obsessed (edited 06-05-2000).]

Right on obseesed!

Obsessed,

From what little information I can find on the allocation of this run of Columbia hatchery chinook is that the feds want to keep the bycatch of ESA listed wild fish to a minimum. The tribes were basicly given the whole bycatch quota for their fishery becuase they are going to be the last group to be restricted for conservation measures.
P.S. I am not saying this is right or wrong, it's just my intrepretation of the information I have read.