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#923229 - 02/19/15 11:47 AM Re: anchored ships [Re: Jerry Garcia]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3339
We're all a bunch of greedy bastards when it comes down to it. The pursuit of happiness requires capital, and since we all want to be happy, we all want more capital. Right or wrong, it is what it is.

It always makes me chuckle when I read claims by small business owners arguing that union workers are self-entitled extortionists who should shut up and get back to work. First of all, union labor is virtually non-existent in small business, so you have no skin in the game. You're free to go on paying your employees whatever you think they're worth, comforted in the notion that if they're unhappy, they can vote with their feet, and you can easily replace them with another person who'll be grateful for the work. No need for you to concern yourselves with big business problems. In fact, I should think most of you small business folks would be far less enamored with the guys across the big business bargaining tables, who are the true extortionists. The Boeing deal was a perfect example of corporate extortion. When they get a $9B tax break, who do you suppose makes up the revenue shortfall that results come next legislative session? In case you didn't know, I'll inform you that it's the middle class, of which the vast majority of small business owners and union laborers alike are members.

Another one that gets me every time is the notion that people who aren't happy with what they earn as employees should just start their own business and control their own destiny. An economy in which everybody owns a business might be an amusing social experiment, but when everyone figured out they had no help to fill the orders they weren't getting, they might start to question the feasibility aspect.

Like most posting here, I do have a negative reaction when I see figures that suggest someone doing a job that didn't require higher education is earning $150K. Once reminded that is a fully loaded rate (which in almost any middle class job is about double the actual rate of pay), I don't find that figure so outrageous. When I'm reminded that middle class wages have been relatively stagnant for over 30 years, I can't fault the union workers for using the only means available to them to offset some of the enormous amount of inflation that has occurred over that same period of time.

I don't always support union action, and I also don't think all unions are appropriate. Let's take Stam's favorite, the state employee unions (one of which I happen to pay into, despite my non-member status), as an example. The main reason I oppose such unions is that when the chips are down, they have no bargaining power against legislatures that are constantly working to offset revenue shortfalls that result when they give corporations tax breaks to keep them in the fold. Indeed, when the money's not flowing, collective bargaining becomes a North of Falconesque dog and pony show, with the end result being net losses in state employee compensation. For my 8 years of making mandatory contributions to union funds, I have ZERO pay/benefit increases to show for it, and I have actually lost ground due to across-the-board pay cuts and furloughs. I'm anxiously awaiting the announcement of how much I will lose when the current legislature introduces a budget that somehow overcomes a $2B revenue shortfall. It probably sounds like I'm complaining, but I'm okay with things. I like where I work, the work I do, and the policy that enables me to work on a schedule that allows me to post stuff like this on a Thursday. Those things are worth a lot to me (especially blogging on Thursday). That said, I do sense that my patience is starting to wear thin, and in the likely event that nothing changes soon, I will do what all you Reagan worshippers out there would have me do and find a new job. Who knows? Maybe I'll start my own small business and learn all about the joys of watching most of my profit going to pay taxes that big businesses refuse to pay....

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#923235 - 02/19/15 12:31 PM Re: anchored ships [Re: FleaFlickr02]
blackmouth Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 2572
Loc: right place/wrong time
Originally Posted By: FleaFlickr02
Let's take Stam's favorite, the state employee unions (one of which I happen to pay into, despite my non-member status), as an example.


STATE OF WASHINGTON &#8209;- PUBLIC EMPLOYEES LABOR UNIONS &#8209;- PAYROLL DEDUCTIONS FOR UNION DUES

It is lawful for any department of the government of the State of Washington in its discretion to deduct union dues from the wages or salary of any employee who presents it with a proper written assignment thereof.

It is lawful for the auditor of the State of Washington in his discretion, upon being presented with a written assignment of a state employee's wages for union dues and properly itemized vouchers, to deduct union dues from the employee's warrant and pay the same to the assignee labor union.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

May 23, 1956
_________________________
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
Winston Churchill

"So it goes." Kurt Vonnegut jr.

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#923238 - 02/19/15 12:37 PM Re: anchored ships [Re: FleaFlickr02]
blackmouth Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 2572
Loc: right place/wrong time
Originally Posted By: FleaFlickr02
You're free to go on paying your employees whatever you think they're worth, comforted in the notion that if they're unhappy, they can vote with their feet, and you can easily replace them with another person who'll be grateful for the work...
Perhaps if you live in a city or a state without an arbitrary minimum wage.
_________________________
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
Winston Churchill

"So it goes." Kurt Vonnegut jr.

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#923241 - 02/19/15 12:43 PM Re: anchored ships [Re: FleaFlickr02]
blackmouth Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 2572
Loc: right place/wrong time
Originally Posted By: FleaFlickr02
The Boeing deal was a perfect example of corporate extortion. When they get a $9B tax break, who do you suppose makes up the revenue shortfall that results come next legislative session?


Did you notice how quickly the Democratic Governor and Legislature opened our purse? They did not want those high paying union jobs leaving the State, as they rely heavily on union contributions to finance their elections.
_________________________
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
Winston Churchill

"So it goes." Kurt Vonnegut jr.

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#923253 - 02/19/15 02:08 PM Re: anchored ships [Re: Jerry Garcia]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4517
Nepotism alive and well at the port.

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#923256 - 02/19/15 03:11 PM Re: anchored ships [Re: ]
Timber Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 05/27/00
Posts: 2447
Loc: Stumpy Acres
Originally Posted By: Fish Prince
the scum who voted for him just to get free phones and free healthcare.


Hey now...... You and Evo scored on that deal.... Eh....
_________________________
If ya can't run with the big dogs stay on the porch!


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#923267 - 02/19/15 05:02 PM Re: anchored ships [Re: Jerry Garcia]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4517
Anchoring a ship when they make T-1's is just stupid.

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#923269 - 02/19/15 05:16 PM Re: anchored ships [Re: Jerry Garcia]
AP a.k.a. Kaiser D Offline
Hippie

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 4450
Loc: B'ham
Nice post, FF02.

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#923276 - 02/19/15 06:51 PM Re: anchored ships [Re: blackmouth]
Longie Offline
Fry

Registered: 10/07/11
Posts: 27
Originally Posted By: Rev. blackmouth
Originally Posted By: FleaFlickr02
The Boeing deal was a perfect example of corporate extortion. When they get a $9B tax break, who do you suppose makes up the revenue shortfall that results come next legislative session?


Did you notice how quickly the Democratic Governor and Legislature opened our purse? They did not want those high paying union jobs leaving the State, as they rely heavily on union contributions to finance their elections.


Rev, I doubt the union was jumping up and down with support for the Governor that kind of hung them out to dry. On the flip side, what happens if he does nothing and Boeing leaves. Then everyone bitches that Boeing left, because the Governor refused to work with them to make Washington a more hospitable place to do business. I find it very interesting that you seem to find blame with the sides being extorted. It seems that maybe you choose sides first and the argument second. Be sure to let us know the next time labor money swings an election, 1/66th is such a small portion that its impact is minimal. Its enough to get politicians to pretend to listen and care.

FleaFlickr, I enjoyed your post. I think you bring up some very valid points when it comes to the lack of benefits of your representation as it pertains to compensation. The only question I have is would you be an easier target for cuts without representation.

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#923278 - 02/19/15 07:22 PM Re: anchored ships [Re: Jerry Garcia]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 7204
Loc: Snohomish, WA
$2 billion dollars per day lost. Right, wrong or indifferent, this is costing a lot of other non-related hardworking folks, like farmers, chit tons of money. Yeah - lets' screw over everyone else so we can get ours. That's the way - that's the spirit! That extra $1.50 and 2 days of vacation is soooo worth it to put others out of business. Everyone involved proud of themselves yet? High five....
_________________________
“If the military were fighting for our freedom, they would be storming Capitol Hill”. – FleaFlickr02

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#923283 - 02/19/15 07:48 PM Re: anchored ships [Re: Jerry Garcia]
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 16958
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
Too fuckin' bad.

Save the next 2 billion and do the deal with the dock workers today.

Maybe those small business owners and farmers should be putting the screws to the fuckheads who operate the ports and ask them if losing 2 bil a day is worth it to keep their pimp hand strong.

As long as corporate execs make 7 figures for doing sh!tty work, I'm not going to snivel about dock workers just breaking into 6 figures, with bennies included.

Not a lazy fu.ck.
Not a union employee.
Not buying into the [Bleeeeep!] story that this whole confucktion is the longshoreman's fault, and THEY should look at what's happening to farmers and other businesses whose sh!t is trapped in the ports.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

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#923288 - 02/19/15 08:02 PM Re: anchored ships [Re: Jerry Garcia]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 7204
Loc: Snohomish, WA
Read my comments again Dan. I said right, wrong or indifferent and also everyone involved. As in I'm not taking sides. My comments are aimed at both sides in parallel. Get it resolved. It's stupid.
_________________________
“If the military were fighting for our freedom, they would be storming Capitol Hill”. – FleaFlickr02

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#923295 - 02/19/15 08:45 PM Re: anchored ships [Re: Jerry Garcia]
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 16958
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
I stand corrected, then.

I agree - do the deal. Unload the f'n ships. Get something done on the dock AND in your office with the big desk and leather chair.

I hope your big customers are tearing you a new ass for letting this turn into the sh!tbomb it has.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

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#923296 - 02/19/15 08:47 PM Re: anchored ships [Re: NickD90]
Piper
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: NickD90
$2 billion dollars per day lost. Right, wrong or indifferent, this is costing a lot of other non-related hardworking folks, like farmers, chit tons of money. Yeah - lets' screw over everyone else so we can get ours. That's the way - that's the spirit! That extra $1.50 and 2 days of vacation is soooo worth it to put others out of business. Everyone involved proud of themselves yet? High five....




you had me until "farmers"... the same uneducated fu.cks but instead inherited lots of land that they pay little to no taxes on and are subsidized if and when they cant get crop to market...

at least the long longshoreman union guys are paying taxes on 100% of their income and paying sales tax on all the [Bleeeeep!] they buy... and the ones I've known buy a lot of [Bleeeeep!]!

...and this from someone that is a union hater

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#923308 - 02/20/15 07:31 AM Re: anchored ships [Re: Jerry Garcia]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4517
I do not blame the individual longshoreman for taking advantage of the system.
Work 4 and paid for 8.
Have Tacoma as your home port, live in Olympia, and get paid travel pay to work the Olympia Port.
What a system it is.

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#923313 - 02/20/15 08:19 AM Re: anchored ships [Re: Longie]
blackmouth Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 2572
Loc: right place/wrong time
Originally Posted By: Longie
Rev, I doubt the union was jumping up and down with support for the Governor that kind of hung them out to dry.
That is simply not true. Here are some facts
Originally Posted By: Hankster

Out of 132 votes in the WA House and Senate, there were only 13 votes against the Boeing tax break. All of the legislators that voted for it and the governor that signed it thought $8.7BB over 27 years was worth keeping 54-56,000 jobs in WA. The union drew up the contract and urged the workers to vote for it, so if anybody hung the workers out to dry it was them. They may think they got a sh!tty deal, but they still have jobs.
And now this.
Originally Posted By: Longie
I find it very interesting that you seem to find blame with the sides being extorted.
Well now that's about to damn funny, 'The pot calling the kettle black.' applause
Originally Posted By: Longie
It seems that maybe you choose sides first and the argument second.
Now that is another interesting thought, especially considering the source.

I willingly admit that in my time on this earth that I have formed opinions, and I like to think that my opinions are well founded.
Like all of the children in Lake Wobegon my opinions are above average and therefore they must surely deserve your thoughtfull consideration. wink
_________________________
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
Winston Churchill

"So it goes." Kurt Vonnegut jr.

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#923357 - 02/20/15 01:26 PM Re: anchored ships [Re: Dan S.]
willametteriveroutlaw Offline
Spawner

Registered: 10/26/02
Posts: 908
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: Dan S.
Too fuckin' bad.

Save the next 2 billion and do the deal with the dock workers today.

Maybe those small business owners and farmers should be putting the screws to the fuckheads who operate the ports and ask them if losing 2 bil a day is worth it to keep their pimp hand strong.

As long as corporate execs make 7 figures for doing sh!tty work, I'm not going to snivel about dock workers just breaking into 6 figures, with bennies included.

Not a lazy fu.ck.
Not a union employee.
Not buying into the [Bleeeeep!] story that this whole confucktion is the longshoreman's fault, and THEY should look at what's happening to farmers and other businesses whose sh!t is trapped in the ports.


At t-6 they have been on a slow down since 2010, it all started with a pissing match between the longshoreman and the IBEW over who would unplug and plug in the containers.

Those fuks would cut off there own noses to spite there faces.
_________________________
Facts don't care about your feelings..

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#923366 - 02/20/15 02:06 PM Re: anchored ships [Re: Jerry Garcia]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7592
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
to muddy the discussion even more, I read that the shipping companies are building bigger ships. According the article, in the near future the majority of container ships will be too large to utilize many of the Pacific Coast ports. Plus, if they build the new China-backed canal in Nicarauga they will have even larger ships.

That might leave most of the Pacific Ports-at least the PNW-shipping coal, petroleum, grain, and logs. That make the PNW a Third World area, shipping our raw materials to somebody else?

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#923371 - 02/20/15 02:23 PM Re: anchored ships [Re: ]
Piper
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Hankster
Originally Posted By: Piper

you had me until "farmers"... the same uneducated fu.cks but instead inherited lots of land that they pay little to no taxes on and are subsidized if and when they cant get crop to market...

Tell that to all of the workers at the walnut processing plant in Orland that were told to go home until everything was settled at the ports.

Tell that to Treefarmer who had 20% of his business wasting away on the dock before Christmas.


maybe they should grow a crop that isn't shipped overseas... or grow just enough to keep the prices profitable but not so much that surplus drives profits even lower so that they have to grow more and be subsidized, unless of course, the goal is to be subsidized so that you dont have to work...

you could always grow a crop that can be fermented into alcohol, if in fact, you do have a surplus that cant be sold locally... but of course, that would be more work which is what everybody is trying to get out of right now...

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#923373 - 02/20/15 02:27 PM Re: anchored ships [Re: Jerry Garcia]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4517
The Treefarmer ain't afraid of work.

His idea of free drifting is casting off the cut bank and walking along the river 100 yards with his offering. He then walks back up river to cast again.

The dude is the Speedo Man of the Satsop.

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