Mr Reel truth...you are the normal "mainstream" press informed taxpayer...that is made to believe that all prosperity comes from Bill Clinton...I think he invented microsoft and the internet didnt he?...or so they would have you believe..The prosperity you are experiencing now is from 12 yrs of REAGAN!!!...The economy doesnt turn around on a dime..it takes a long time for trends to happen..And of course there was huge deficit...it was called DEFENSE SPENDING...due to DEMOCRATS AND LIBERALS...or Communists as they are really known...Voting for a democrat is voting against freedom....its voting against ever being able to carry a gun if you so choose..and its voting for SOCIALISM>>MORE GOV...less independence...QUIT LISTENING to NBC and inform yourself...Damn right Slade is pro industry...hell...WHO pays your damn salary!!..I may live in Cincy now but as SteelyHORN can attest there is not too manypeople that spent more time on the rivers of Washington...Every commercial fishiong org...supports the demos in all elections...as well as the Sierra Club...PAWS...PETA>>>every rabbit hugging org int he country supports demos...the very same people that want to take away the things you LOVE to do..SO CLUE IN>>>

Jakedog,Your exact words were " the rivers without dams have the best fishing" Out of that comment I figured "best" also could mean superior fishing!!!!! Next time I will just quote you verbatum!! In defense of Bowers, boys you should know that he is a friend of mine and that in the last decade fished more than most full time guides!!! So ya, he is just alittle bit familier with how our system is being run..The reason he had to move was because he was fishing to much and not making enough money to get into that extreme tax bracket!!! I think everytyhing is fine now that he cannot fish anymore!! Enough about him!! R.T., I have enjoyed your wisdom and experience you have brought to this board, but I want to ask you one question.You don't personally have to answer hopefully there will be someone out there that can answer for all of us. In comparison, at what percentage is the Kalama R. returning Salmon and Steelys today versus 50 yrs ago. Compare this in percentage against the mighty Columbia 50 yrs ago.. Everyone wants to blame the dams as the immediate savior of our fish runs, I think the immediate savior is to eliminate ALL indiscriminating netting first then lets see how we do. ONE STEP AT A TIME, LETS TAKE THE OBVIOUS FIRST!!!! maybe a better example would be the Hoh or the Bogy, these rivers have zero Columbia influence..Please somebody post these numbers!!I be looking them up myself also..

REAGAN??? See what I mean. Put on your boots for more guys. ------- Steelyhorn, I agree with you wholeheartedly about getting rid of the nets, as I mentioned in my above post. But nobody can deny the detrimental effects on salmon and steelhead runs that the dams have had! Comparing dammed river's run downturns to non-dammed rivers downturns is comparing apples to oranges (too many other factors, such as the timber industry); it's not a crditable arguement for the dams within fish issues. However, I'm not sure I'm for breaching them because of the immense costs and uncertainties of the outcomes. Better to improve technology to transport fish around the dams. And of course there are many more factors that need to be addressed than just those 2 issues (habitat degredation, water usage, fishing pressure, and on and on). We are now going to be forced by federal decree to imporve these situations. I wonder if the wealthy influential interests will find ways to "slide" (or is it "Slade") around the new fish protective laws while the rest of us conform? - Steve

Guys,

This is what our elected politico's love; us arguing with each other, putting heat on each other, rather than putting heat on our elcted officials. The more we argue with each other, the less time there is to realize that ALL politicians at the Congressional level are as crooked as a dog's hind leg. If you're not crooked, you'll never get elected to Congress. But hey, I'm game for a little dispute.

The Reagan years; what I bright spot in American politics. Tax cuts and increased defense spending (i.e. Star Wars Defense System), which changed us from a creditor nation into a nation packing a 5 trillion dollar debt. Thanks Ron, what better to leave your kids with than a mountain of debt to pay off? My folks, and some of you Reagan lovers, were the first generation IN HISTORY to hand a lower standard of living off to their children than they enjoy/enjoyed. How proud they must be. If I can't hand MY kids a higher standard of living than I enjoy, then at least I can do my part to hand them an environment that's better than the one I lived in. That's why Slade won't get my vote. What good is a fat wallet if you have to spend your income in a world decimated by the industries that own our politicians?

Don't like BIG government, huh? Then check out Slade's voting record regarding Federal wiretaps, and Federal ID cards. Want the Feds to know where you are and what you're up to all the time? Then, by all means, vote for Slade. I figure, as long as I pay my taxes, the Feds don't need to know what I'm doing in my spare time and they sure as h*ll don't need to know what I'm saying on my phone or via email.

I'll just vote my conscience in November....and my conscience says "VOTE AGAINST SLADE GORTON". We'll see what the vote tallies say, and then whine at each other again after the elections.

Fish on........

RT, I can't beleive you man. After your post on 7/28, I backed off the politics, only to have more liberal BS be spouted not only to have your support, but to have you do exactly what you complained about on your post. Well you did a good job trying to make Clinton a hero but the reality is, there is a congress and a senate that is not run by billy's boys. Also the republican presidents you say caused havoc brought down communism, so Clinton had no extra defense spending except when he needed some distractions for his own follies. Yes here it is, repubs trying to take away the great and powerful clintons glory. Sorry man but I can't beleive you just turned around and did exactly what you complained about. Guess I gave you more respect than you deserved.

[This message has been edited by corky (edited 08-02-2000).]

corky,

Calm yourself, man. You're letting this political disagreement get the best of you. Regardless of RT's political views, I get the feeling he's a pretty nice guy, likely to give you the shirt off his back. That's why I'm going to the Nisqually on Thurs. I'll bet you'll see liberals and conservatives having a good time trading stories and barbs without getting all worked up about it.

Maybe you just haven't been fishing enough lately. My recommendation is to catch two steelhead, and call back in the morning.

Fish on........

I am going to set the record straight as far as my stance on the Dams. I am not a dam lover by any means. We have created a problem with them that cannot be denied.. However, my stance is that why can't we TRY(awefully big word)to let them coexist with todays modern era.. There has to be better ways for the fish to navigate pass these cement monsters. I just get alittle defensive when people rip on the Columbia River system and there lack of fish and blame it mainly on the Dams.. As I've mentioned before I've fished the majority of the Salmon and Steelhead Rivers inthis State and cannot believe it when I fish rivers that are so close to salt that I can smell it and you struggle to get hook-ups or worse yet they have an emergency closure do to lack of fish returning?!?! This is why I am so defensive towards many of you on this subject.. As far as politics goes there will never be much common ground amongst us. After following this post I've decided that the majority of you guys are definatly on the Demos. side. That is fine, But as DanS said, ALL politicians are crooked!!No truer words can be said! I hope you guys someday realize that those raging liberals will do less for you in the long run than ole sladeee..I not saying sladeee is worth a sh**t but the flip side might be much worse. Oh well, lets see what happens over the next 10 yrs.. DanS I am not sure if you are cancelling my vote or I will be cancelling yours.. I vote absentee so maybe you'll cancell mine..Oh well. Also, I am also done posting about politics for awhile, have to get onto another topic my blood pressure can't take it. I am gonna half to crack me a cold brew and take a break. See ya

DanS, I realy do think RT is the great guy you think he is. I have conversed with him a couple of times via e-mail. I guess I just let my politics get the best of me, but he did say in an earlier post that I shouldn't be posting patisan political views, and then tuned around and patted you an the back, and threw in his own. I wouldn't hold you guys' political veiws against you, but that seemed a bit hypacritical. I think I will try your suggestion, tomorrow I am working in Forks and I'm going an hour and a half early to throw some spinners on the Duc. I feel better already.

Hey steelyhorn, you miss quoted me once again. I only wrote two sentences, I would think you could get that right. scroll up next time.

ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!

Lets all of us get back to some we can talk and if you want to debate the issue's go find a polictical debate board. I am sure this year there are far more of them then there is room on here.
Please stop and desist from straying so far off what this board is about.
WE ARE NOT GOING TO CHANGE EACH INDIVIDUALS MIND HERE AND NOW. LET US VOTE OUR MINDS IN NOVEMBER, NOT HERE.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH

sorry for yelling, but this has gotten out of hand. I keep my politic's inside and do not discuss amoung others, so as not to stir up such a mess as this thread has become.


elmtree (woody)

Well Corky you are right. I re-read my earlier post which I had hoped might difuse too much partisanship on here, so we could stay within Marty's subject of Slade Gorton and his probable affects on state fisheries and the environment. I followed this thread with interest, until I let wit 45 get under my skin with his "Facts" post. I just couldn't resist pointing out the ones I believe don't hold water, and why. Sorry about the seeming hypocracy; which I do detest! I will be more careful in the future before suggesting avoidance of anything I might not be able to avoid myself. - BTW, why don't you come on down to the Nis? And only to fish and talk fish I hope (no politics?) . - RT - Edit: BTW, I only expressed a left wing view of macro economics. I don't agree with all of the other left wing agenda either! For example, I don't relish the idea of only criminals having hidden guns while us law abiding citizens should have to give up our right to bear arms! Others too, but I think 'nuff said?



[This message has been edited by Reel Truth (edited 08-02-2000).]

RT, politics does get under ones skin doesn't it. I should have realized that when i started ranting. The Nis is a long drive for a day of fishing, but don't be suprised if work and family and peak seasons come together and you receive an e-mail. No politics while fishing.(It defeats the purpose)

Don't let it stop just yet. We have only a few posts to go over 100. Never seen that on here. I wish I could think of something more to say. Dam. Slade. Ickshnay.

Friends don't let friends vote Republican!

Hey Steelhead boy, I probably wouldn't like you even if I knew you!!! Go back to your Union Job....O.K. now I'm REALLY done posting about politics. Sorry I just couldn't resist alittle retaliation...Pres. BUSH 2000

[This message has been edited by steelyhorn hunter (edited 08-03-2000).]

Can't resist when this close to 100 posts

Reeltruth- I too have enjoyed our banter. I do pity you however for being so misinformed. Your arguments are terrifically emotional but sadly incorrect. I supplied source material wherever I could on all of my above "Facts" and will complete and/or enhance them for your benefit if needed. If you have a disagreement with any of them feel free to cite, chapter and verse, your supporting documentation. If you would like more specific supporting documentation on any subject from me, just ask and I will be happy to oblige. As you have probably surmised by now, I enjoy a good debate. I just insist on using facts when possible.
Regarding the booming economy of the nineties. Outside the hiccup between 1990 and 1994 most economists agree(most notably Alan Greenspan) that the nineties are a continuation of the eighties and the policies enacted by Reagan in 81 and 82.(there's that dirty "R" word again) Regarding the spiraling deficits, treasury receipts from 1981 to 1989 DOUBLED while congressional spending TRIPLED.(see GAO or OMB records 1980-1989 on receipts and congressional record or omnibus spending bills of same period for spending numbers) Please note that the congress was controlled by demo's all but two of those years. While the lack of defense spending has accounted for some of the reduced deficits of late, much can be attributed to refinancing the long term govt debt to short term low rate debt, thus lowering the overall debt owed when including interest. Please note here that defense spending as a percentage of GDP is now the lowest since the 1930's and readiness and morale is the lowest in modern history.(we have thousands of servicemen on FOODSTAMPS for petes sake!!!!) We also finished paying off the S and L debacle (a problem of both parties) in 1992 which had an annual cost roughly equal to the current annual defense budget. Add to this the lowering of some minor taxes (since the 94 elections and not a second before) and the subsequent trickle down effect of that freed-up capital (creating jobs and taxpayers) and the still booming economy and treasury receipts are projected to go up dramatically for the forseeable future. According to some reputable albeit right leaning research institutes, had congress just frozen spending in 1989 not only the deficits but the national debt would now be nearly gone. (personally, I don't believe that the deficits are really gone since the SSI trust fund dollars must be used to make it happen) A little piece of sobering reality about the power of politicians and their appetite for our money.

In your earlier post, you stated that "there could never be a fair flat tax until there is a more fair and equitable system of compensation and wealth distribution according to societal benefit" or something close to that. I humbly request that you expound on that theory and how it would benefit any of us or all of us. Please include how much would be enough compensation and who would decide "societal benefit". Also please tell me if the compensation and wealth distribution would be equal for all and if not, who would decide who gets what. If, in fact, you propose that all of us get the same amount, why not just have the govt supply all things and eliminate compensation altogether?

This theory is not often proposed in western cultures and you have piqued my interest. I will give you advance notice that this request is an attempt to force you embarrass yourself trying to explain it and your predictable discomfort will not last long. You may respond in an email if you would prefer not to fill up this thread with your response.

As I'm sure you've noticed, I pay particular attention to such matters. If you insist on trying to dispute the facts I present, please come prepared. If I may be so bold, may I suggest that you get and read The wealth of nations written by Adam Smith. First published in 1776 it is a virtual textbook on the American economy as it was designed.

As for Slade.....I will gladly open my mind and wallet to any CONSERVATIVE candidate who wishes to oppose him. Until then I will be forced to support him while holding my nose. (or continue the write in campaign for myself)

Can't wait to see the magic 100 posts happen on this uncomfortable yet needed thread.

Good day,
L

[This message has been edited by wit45cal (edited 08-03-2000).]

Huh? ..... UNCLE

?