Please don't try to tell me about clean water and air. As one of the people in the forefront of environmental protection I do know a little about it. I spent 4 years owning a business that was required to clean up the lead and chrome ridden water of the City of Tacoma. It is private businesses that are making improvements to the water and air.(with help and constant urging from the DOE) All of the significant advances in environmental protection have come from private business. You conviently forget that the biggest reason we have the lowest power rates in the US is exactly because of the columbia dams. You also forget to disagree or disprove any of my points but rather resort to name calling. If you think the nanny state is a good thing, name one time in history that it has worked.

Native son, I really appreciate all your knowledgeable, and intelligent input on this website, help me out here, the Hoh is pretty much unpolluted,undammed, undeveloped, and the headwaters exist in a never logged national forest. Why then is the king run going downhill so fast, if it's not the nets in the river, what is it.???

wit45,

Have you checked the power production numbers from the Snake river dams in question? You might be surprised at how little they contribute to the area's economy, power-wise. Private enterprise is leading the cleanup of the messes that other private enterprises have produced. Just curious....who left behind the lead and chromium you were cleaning up? I agree that our gov't reps. have done a sorry job as stewards of our lands, but you're not really claiming that private enterprise is guilt-free regarding the degradation of our natural resources, are you? In any case, I'll be at the polls in Nov. voting against Slade, so if you want to cancel out my vote, be my guest. I think his track record sucks, and I'm going to let my vote speak for me. As a voter, that's all I can do.


Fish on.........

I did not mean to resort to name calling but the one thing that drives me crazy about Gorton supporters is that his efforts to undermine enviromental law are so blatant. Browse through the headlines or the local news section of the Seattle Times over the past year and its very obvious, look back over Gorton's long tenure and its sad to see where we could be right now.
If you think I am some kind of liberal tree hugger and that is why I am denouncing Gorton and supporting him being voted out of the senate that is not the case. Anybody that really knows me or has had any sort of political discussion with me knows that I am about as conservative as they come; many a occasions I have been called a conservative *******.
I still can not understand why anyone who enjoys the outdoors in this state would vote for him...it just makes no sense to me.
--
Ryan

ps wit45cal: are you one of those "sportsman" that bonks a wild steelie on the head and then blames their demise totally and completely on the indians?
just wondering

Dan O, I will try to answer it is pretty complex though. Starting in about 1982 there has been a repetitive and extremely damaging series of heavy rainfall and early snow melts resulting in catastrophic Riparian zone shifts and gravel recruitment. This has been accelerating and if you fish the Hoh much you have seen the evidence of these floods. The worst damage is in the areas that have been logged but by no means is the areas in the park immune to these events.
River course changes of the magnitude that are occuring on the Hoh are devastating to all spieces. In a lot of cases the water just simply moves away from where fish have spawned before the eggs get out of the gravel. In other instances the rearing areas for the fry and parr are filled in with the excessive sand and gravel thereby limiting the carrying capacity of the stream.
In a lot of the Hoh there is a lack of the larger woody debris that forms log jams which create stability to the banks and the course of the river. Too the log jams are important to the fry and parr in diferent stages of there various life historys.
I'm sure that you know all these things but its a pretty short list compared to all that is wrong with the Hoh.
I'm quite certain that the Hoh needs to be managed very carefuly by all the managers involved Native Tribe, National Park, Timber companys, the State, and us as individuals.
Hope that helps Dan O, I am headed out the door to do a bit of angling.

Sorry but I haven't killed a fish in almost two years, of any kind. I have been having terrible luck(?!?!?) hunting steelies as of late but I really don't expect to bonk even a hatchery fish. Part of the reason we have fewer fish is the indian nets and the lack of policing same. The dams also contribute, as do sporties, commercials,(as an aside, I notice that guides are not classified as commercials. With very few exceptions,most notably Bob, they get paid to produce dead fish for customers) industry and all the rest. I am opposed to the redistribution of wealth, mine and yours, and the encroachment on freedom that the dems will bring.(patty murray ring a bell) Slade is no saint, and I have disagreed with him many times. My point is that we should elect someone who will enhance our freedom not attack it. The word fish is nowhere in the constitution and these jokers are there to uphold the constitution, the whole thing. Everyone complains about SPECIAL INTEREST making the rules until it is their own special interest. Like it or not we are a special interest. As for the water I was cleaning up, it was the drinking water that the CITY had already treated. The Lead and Chrome levels coming into my plant were above the permissable discharge levels allowed by law. This meant that I had to pay to clean the water before I could discharge it to the sewer. This is the reason that I will not drink city water anywhere (watch for the bleach smell) Slade is certainly not the best choice we could find, I simply believe he will be the best choice available in Nov.

I seem to be older then most of the post on this topic. I can remember back when good old slade gordon use to do commentary on KIRO. Before he got elected to the state office's he has held.
I did not like his commentary then i i do not like his attitude now. He has not changed his demeanor or attitude. He always acts like is so much better than everyone else, and his [Bleeeeep!] does not stink.

Well folk's, believe it or not i'll bet my pay check that i would not follow him into a bathroom stall when he is done.

He has been a bad seed, but now he is the senior bad seed for Washington State. And yes, it is important to have senior members in congress. But why could he be more like old Magneson or a couple of others we have had over the years. Yes some of them have been demcrats, but we had a few good republics also. People whom actually looked out for Washington's people not just their own or their special interest groups. Yes old salde has his share of special interest groups and they pay alot of money to keep him in office. No secret, it has been listed by some individuals of all the national congress-people. Whom, when and where the monies, trips and so on comes from.

It might hurt haveing rookie congree people in office, but hopefully they will listen for a couple of years before they get all caught up in the pork barrel politics and do something right.

elmtree (woody)

[This message has been edited by elmtree (edited 07-20-2000).]

Before you vote against Slade, consider the options, and the big picture.
1. Slade does not support PETA or the other animal rights people. Note: PETA wants to ban all fishing, especially C&R,since they consider it torture. (Slade's opponent is a Liberal Democrat, financially supported by the animal rights groups).

2. The Dams in Eastern WA, support the mainstay of the Eastern WA economy, agriculture. The Dams also are also the financial support for the majority of the fish hatcheries on the Columbia. Remove one, you remove many of the other.

3. Slade and the Republicans support local, and state solutions to the fish problems. The opposition (Democrats)prefers Federal solutions. If you doubt that, just look at what they just did to Hanford Reach. Hopefully they won't screw that up, or eliminate access.

Slade certainly isn't perfect, but I think he is a heck of a lot better that the alternative. I can't bear the thought of a Patty Murray twin!

Just remember Slade = no fish. If you are O.K. with that than vote for him. I really think that some of you need to look up the word Liberal in the dictionary!!! Maybe it isn't a dirty word.

First off I want the readers to know the I support what Huntar and 45cal. said about the alternatives... YOU guys are flippin nuts if you think for one minute that one of those liberal demos. are going to make your fishing any better. DanS you can already consider your vote as cancelled, because however bad slade may be the alternative is slow death....I wish you readers could look past acouple of issues an see the big picture.. REMOVING THE DAMS WILL NOT BRING BACK THE FISH AS FAST AS THE REMOVEL OF ALL NETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Try one first then go for the other.. Lastly, Slade is one of the few politicians that has ever stood his ground(momentarily) against the indian issues.. Do you think for a minute that one of those liberal demos will try that. Think not!!!

Pro-Gortonians :
How would reelecting Gorton better the state our our native salmonids in this state than electing a Democrat???

--
Ryan

edit, message deleted.

[This message has been edited by salmontackler (edited 07-22-2000).]

Lets stick to the subject at hand. The "Dam Question" I asked Slate about, were the Elwha dams. His response was "I don't see any real good in removing them" . And lets not get tied up in liberal vs. conservative. Vote for the person who will do the best job. And if you have kept up on events, you would see that Slate Gorton has done a lousy job. At least from a fishermans point of view. If you care about what goes on with this states fisheries, than vote this guy out!

Now that this has deteriorated into a political debate, I'll bow out now. Let's just say that "conservative" means opposed to change. Like things the way they are? Then vote GOP. After all, they're so worried about our personal freedoms that they want to be in our homes and bedrooms and doctors' offices to show us how to lead our "free" lives.

Fish on......

Salmontackler, you said that Slade is as close as we can come to removing the dams. Are you serious??? Slade never saw a dam he didn't like. Ever!!! At least demos, those crazy environmentalists, know that dams are bad for the environment.

I don't think I am going to change any minds here, especially since no one has even bothered to prove any of my points wrong. Quite typical of democrats. I certainly don't intend to make any enemies here which is often done when discussing politics. Suffice it to say that the last time we even had close to conservative (not necessarily GOP) control in WA was when Dixie was the Gov. What has been tried in this state for the last 25 years certainly has not worked and I for one am tired of hearing that the only reason it hasn't is that I'm not contributing enough of my money. Slade is NOT a good choice for senator, he is just a lot better than the alternatives. Please do not get bogged down with being a single issue voter, it shows a pathetic lack of citizenship. It is the me, me, me attitude that got us into this mess. I suggest you ask your boss to let you sit in on a few interviews(it quickly proves the sorry state of education here), review the tax liability of the firm, add up all of the taxes that you can see that you pay(don't forget about the 7.5% SSI your boss pays for you)See what it takes to get a building permit, etc., etc. You will quickly see that we are losing freedoms daily and it's costing us more and more to do it. (boston tea party happened over a 2.5% tax) I will repeat, The nanny state has failed EVERY time it has been tried, for the last five thousand years. Hard work, perserverence, patriotism and individual freedom have WORKED every single time it has been tried for the last five thousand years. Vote for freedom and the rest will fall into place, and do not under any circumstances be willing to trade freedom for security or comfort (or fish). The small pricetag today will expand exponentially and the program will still fail. (social security ring a bell?) Question, does anyone on this board under age 45 think that SSI will provide enough for them to live on at retirement? Does anyone under 35 think they will get back anything at all? Just one example of a great sounding idea, very well intentioned, run by literally thousands of true believers over the years and it is still failing. I will now go back to discourse on fishing and leave you all to make your own decisions politically. Anyone need a boat on the Cowlitz Sat. 7-21??? am planning to launch around 0500. Dems are welcome!!!

Voters and fishermen:

I am just left of center politically and vote as an independant. As a fisherman and outdoorsman I wouldn't even consider voting for Slade Gorton. As a citizen concerned for fairness and well being for the majority of people I also wouldn't vote for Gorton. Almost nuff said. Except I can't help but to reply to the far right edge blinded thinking of the "Gun Man" (wit45cal). You have completely over exagerated the negative controlling affects on society as a whole by the liberal demos! I don't like things that don't belong forced down my throat or up my a** either. The key words are "that don't belong there". Most of what they propose for policy and laws do belong there so the animalistic side of human nature doesn't ferociously feed upon itself to eventual destruction. The members of society that don't want them there are those that want freedoms to hurt people in various ways for self gain or want built-in unfair advantages to oppress the middle and lower classes. This is simply a FACT! You must be an ignorant redneck that doesn't even know why you are a self-described peasant. It's because of the the fraudulant oppressive conservative wealthy class that you so blindly vote for. Those are the ones that aren't satisfied with just 3 huge houses, 5 expensive cars, boats, and planes, etc., etc., etc. They want the middle and lower classes to provide them with labor and money and then turnaround and pay the taxes too, due to their extreme greed and the grandeur illusion that they are above the masses in intrinsic value and privilage. One of the great sicknesses of the human race. Just as rediculous and ugly is that their big money can buy "sellout" conservative republicans election victories and thus gain essentially paid for political advantage favors. Why? Because the masses still allow these big money "pull the wool over the dummies eyes" lying compaigns to keep working. Why? Because they are dumb. You too "Wit". There are many ways they pull this off. Let me enlighten you with their easiest and most effective. During their bigger money compaigns they promise you a tax cut (read their lips). Even if they do come thru with this tiny carrot for the needy, the biggest tax cut in dollars per capita are overwhelmingly for the wealthy. And then the carrot goes right back to wealthy anyway in the form of windfall profits enabled by their system. But because God didn't gift the "peasants" with as much intelligence, or even greed, does not mean that they deserve to be so utterly oppressed by wealthy power! And the smarter greedy people aren't as smart as they think because all of their ugliness will eventually lead to enough destruction that it will prevent them from enjoying the spoils of their power. Now this is from a guy who honestly isn't even a far left wing person. I just tell it like it really is!

[This message has been edited by Fishtick (edited 07-23-2000).]

Fishtick, Wow except for the reference to individuals described as being "dumb" ( I would substitute ignorant) I couldn't agree with you more.
I am writing this response as one who has a closet full of guns and the same lackluster educatinoal background decryed in a previous post! I have spent a lifetime in the school of hard knocks and I am fully aware of the problems of excessive liberal programs but they pale in comparison to the excesses of global enviromental destruction caused by big moneyed intrest.
True campaign finance reform is the only single issue that rings my bell until that transpires all the rhetoric about freedom will ring pretty hollow in my ears.

wit45, Fishtick, Native Son and others,

What we have here is a simple political diagreement. Now if we all go to the polls, or mail in our ballots, we'll be doing all we can do to make our point. It's the non-voting complainers that crack me up. They take no part in the process but continue to lament how the process works.

Just vote in November and let the chips fall where they may. wit45, that was very open-minded of you to invite even a Dem. to fish with you.......you weren't just going to dump them overboard downstream were you? Ha Ha. Talk to you guys later.........


Fish on...........

Dan S, if you think this country is changing for the better, I think I can see why you are a liberal.
Fishtick, I have one word for you "luxury tax". Just my "blind voting, ignorant redneck" opinion. If you don't like being controlled you should re-think liberalism, and I thimk you are a little further to the left than you think. I don't think Gordon is the best choice, but I would rather not have liberal representation. Guess I am between a rock and a hard head.