RT, here is your facts.(http://www.allegromedia.com/sugi/taxes/#Head-3.htm). They actualy have it around 80/20 with the bottom 20% in the minus bracket. I am sorry for bringing politics to this fishing board, but some people, especialy young new voters like chris get their info from from like minded people (fisherman) like hammerhead and fishstick, who say things that are not accurate. I know when I was young I used to listen to what ever anyone on MTV said, and make a fool out of myself in political conversations. I will drop this conversation and try to stick to fishing. Although I am an obvious right winger, I have no intention on voting for Slade, so please don't take my arguement as a plug for him. He is obviously full of s**t, and does not care about the environment. Again I am sorry for getting away from fishing.

Here's another that has it at the top 25% paying 80% (http://www.reagan.com/HotTopics.main/HotMike/document-7.29.1997.1.html) but interesting, the top 1% of wage earners pay 30%. OK i'll quit.

[This message has been edited by corky (edited 07-28-2000).]

Thanks for the posts guys. Lots of interesting heated political debate and history. Not really what I was looking to stir up though. I already knew I didn't like him just didn't understand the support I saw while driving though forks. Has he done some good work for the logging community, since the fishing store is in a logging town?

I've never been able to understand where Gorton's support among sportsmen comes from. He came into office, many years ago, on a promise to do something about tribal fishing rights, which most of us dismissed as unlikely or impossible even then. As I said above, he has been a reliable vote against gun control measures, which appeals to some. I suspect that his support in a logging community like Forks comes largely from his steadfast opposition to nearly all conservation measures and his repeated efforts to gut the Endangered Species Act (remember the spotted owl?). At the Puyallup gun show in July, I noticed a "Sportsmen for Gorton" booth which, fortunately (in my opinion), didn't seem to be doing much business.

Ok, we have wasted enough time and space to this thread to knoe we are not going to change opinions from either the right or left.
Our only goal now is to wait till November and see what happens. Maybe the right will out vote the left or maybe not enough votes will be tallied to make any changes at all, who knows.
Let us get back to more important things like lieing to all the other memebers on this bb about all the fish we landed on 3 pound test in 2 mintues each.

elmtree (woody)

Native Son- Thank you for at least being honest. I admire you for not only protecting my freedom but also for having the courage to go. I believe that my "why not go" point was made by your succint explanation. I for one am glad that you stayed. Thank you for your service sir.

Scaly- While it is not my first name on that wall in DC, it certainly is my last name. My family has also, like yours, paid the price of freedom in war. With that said, lets get back to my main points. Regardless of whose numbers you trust, the top wage earners in this country pay the overwhelming majority of the tax dollars. The two women running to face slade (non-caps intended) are both liberal socialists at heart and voting for them is a guarantee that all of us will take a step closer to the type of government you dutifully faught against. My attitude toward freedom, capitalism and America will not change and I am DA*N glad that people like you, native son and my father and uncle had the opportunity to kill commies. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. I will probably vote for slade only because there will be no better option for me. I respect your right to vote otherwise and would gladly take up arms to insure your opportunity to do so.

I am glad that you too decided to stay in the US after the war. This country is better off with capable soldiers at the ready.

PS- I have not only talked to but hired many VN vets and will continue to do so as long as they are willing and able to work for a living. As far as visiting a VA hospitals, my friends and relatives weren't lucky enough to get to the hospitals. I will continue to visit them at the cemetaries (including Arlington) of this great country sir.

Hammerhead- Well my friend, I could go on for hours proving to you that your ideas about the economy are completely wrong but I fear it would all fall on deaf ears. One must first have the courage to hear and believe the truth. I could just remind you that white males have over 150 years head start on women and minorities in the work force (in large numbers) and that women tend to be somewhat fluid in the workforce due to the occasional sojourn into motherhood.

Rather than attack me personally or raise points with no basis in reality you might try to cite for all our benefit any time in history when socialism has succeeded or when capitalism has failed. You might also try to disprove (with facts not rhetoric) any of the points I have made. While none of us like slade much, if at all, the platform upon which he runs is a step up from the alternative. If we could just get him to stick to that platform after he's elected we'd all be better off. Oh, to dream.

A final thought for all of us. Let us all vote our conscience and may the best man (person?) win. Until then....let's catch and release fish.

Wit: I appreciate both your listening and your feedback. I'm truly sorry to hear about your father, uncle and friends, and hope you know I consider their sacrifices to be as supreme as can be, wherever they served.
Peace and tight lines.
p.s. Native Son just left for Canada... but only for some fishing.

Getting back to the original question. Nobody has proved why we shouldn't vote against Slade Gorton. I think we all know where Slade stands on fishing issues. This discussion seems to have degenerated into a bunch of political rhetoric. I don't think there are any politicians that support sports fishing.

Fellas!!!

This is the single most important election of your LIVES....You better clue to in to the reality now!! Slade is the best thing you got going fellas!..His opponents are democrats and demos are supported by the netters and the HOOPS!!(indians that is)..Regardless of his opinion on dams..he is a republican and a conservative...therefore if you want to keep your freedoms(fishing and hunting) you support SLADE...BOTTOM LINE FELLAS!!!no options whatsoever!!..Now back to the DAMS!..if the Dams were the problem we would have **** piles of fish in every other river that doesnt have a dam!!!...HMMMM..so where are those rivers that are so stuffed with steelies because they dont have dams!!

What Rivers are you talking about that don't have dams? There aren't that many, and the ones that I fish do have the best fishing.

Jake...

Name a river without a dam that DOESNT have or hasnt had a problem...Columbia doesnt seem to have had a springer problem this year did?...wasnt it a record number?...hmmm..and the dams are still there...go figure

Hey bowers,

Feel free to vote for your freedom-loving Repubs. from Ohio. I'll take my chances with the Dem running against Slade. And Wit45, stop trying to make it sound like you have some factual economic reason to vote GOP. You may have an economics-based OPINION as to why you'll vote GOP, but let's not confuse opinion with fact. Sure, the richest 10% of the population pays the vast majority of taxes, but that's how it should be. You pay according to your ability to pay. Gee, you think I feel sorry for a guy who has to pay a 36% rate when he makes 100 million dollars a year. No, I don't. Poor guy, now he only has 64 million to spend this year. And anyone who isn't naive knows that the more money you make, the more ways you have to shelter your income, so there aren't many millionaires paying in at 36%. However, the poor slobs like me who make 30-50K/year have a hard time "hiding" income. So, who's your friend, GOP or Dem? Guess that's just a matter of OPINION.

And don't start with me on the personal freedom issue, either. Sure, the GOP will fight for you to keep your guns, but what are they doing in MY bedroom and doctor's office. And why do they insist on using the Bible to justify these intrusions, when the church-state separation required by the Constitution is crystal-clear? And why does the GOP feel the Second Ammendment is written in stone, but the First Amendment isn't? These are personal freedom issues the GOP doesn't want to talk about, because their hypocrisy is illuminated.

Are the Dems without errs in judgment or hypocrisy? Not at all, just look at the theives in the S&L scandal years ago that cost us taxpayers billions. Slimy Repubs AND Dems alike, caught with their hand in the cookie jar. And in case you memory has wavered, Neil Bush was one of the main players in that scandal. Funny how Neil is hardly spoken of now.

One other thought. You do realize that being a veteran doesn't make you any more or less of an American than anyone else, don't you? You speak as if your vote is more important, or carries more weight, than mine because you're a vet. and I'm not. Well, I'll say this: You and other vets, especiallly those who served during times of war, are brave beyond description, and should be respected by ALL Americans. But your vote is no more meaningful than mine, and your opinion is no more meaningful than mine. That being said, I thank you for your service to our country.

I'm voting AGAINST Slade, simple as that. I don't care if his opponent wears a hammer and sickle patch on his/her jacket, since they, too, can be voted out of office. I'm far more leery of someone who rants about freedom, while special-interest money flows into his pockets, than I am of a communist insurgence into US politics. Just my OPINION, and I won't claim it's a fact. But I WILL VOTE in November, and I'll be voting against Slade Gorton.

Fish on........

Bowers,
They must be in Cinnci, because they sure are`nt here.
By the way, thanks for taking the whiner Ken G jr. off our hands..*L*

First off I must extend my sincere gratitude to "Bowers" for taking that whining little ballplayer out of Seattle, it almost certaintly gave us a chance at winning the big one!!!!! Secondly, to Jake Dogfish, I fish both sides alot. I personally keep very close records of my fishing trips.. You don't have any kind of arguement at all saying that there is better fishing on the rivers without dams!!! You most certatintly haven't fished very much on any of the tribs. on the Columbia.. My overall best fishing hrs/fish is definately not off a coastal rivers andI fish the Peninsula rivers several times a year.. Great place to fish but there are not nearly the numbers there should be!! Thats not my opinion, that comes from years of records and keeping track of the pure numbers of hours per hook-up!!! So don't splash any of that B.S. that the non-dammed rivers have superior runs than the dammed rivers... Face it both types of river systems are pathetically low in comparison to there historical levels!!!!

Well said *****!!

Well said Dan

Bowers, if you want to vote for Slade, move about 2,000 miles west. But if your an angler, and angling is a voting issue, you won't be voting for him. For those true and true GOPers, by all means vote Gorton, its your right as an American. I hardly vote for candidates solely on how I believe they will treat us sporties. There are a lot of other things that bear considering when voting for our State senator.

However, there is no mistaking Slade Gortons abyssmal environmental record that includes taking positions that are very unfriendly to salmon. He is pro-dams, pro-industry, and pro-commercial fisheries. Bowers, where do get this stuff about demos being pro-netting? Most are anti-commercial netting and pro-treaty netting. This bothers some, but is it any worse than pro-dams, pro-commercials, pro-pollution, anti-treaty Slade? Or maybe its just the "hoops" that you don't like--rather derogatory term by the way, please don't repeat it here.

And as for the Columbia....pre-dam and pre- commercial numbers of salmon numbered in the 10s of millions. A couple of hundred thousand spring chinook is reason for hope, but no reason to celebrate. Its sad when a 10 year record is an order of magnitude less than historical numbers. And read some of the posts more carefully, this big return is because of several consecutive high water years, which increases downstream survival over said dams, and good ocean conditions. Slade or anyone else can't control the weather.

Bottom line, if you want to support Slade, by all means do your civic duty, but don't connect your admiration for him or the GOP with sport fishing issues.



[This message has been edited by obsessed (edited 08-01-2000).]

Obsessed, Please answer a big question for me? could you tell me what the historical levels for the Kalama,Elochaman,Hoh, Bogy, SolDuc etc.. where?? These rivers have pathetic returns and its only a long slingshot throw from the headwaters to the salt!!!!!!! Maybe you need some help dicovering the problems, NETS, and habitat...Lets try and get rid of the nets first, than we might see a few more fish in the systems!!Oh thats right it is their ceremonial right to net a river when it cannot even sustain a sportfishery!!

Hey steelyhorn, I never said that Rivers without dams have superior runs, so don't put words in my mouth. I don't fish the coast very much either so I can't compare with those Rivers. I am mainly talking about Puget Sound. My Point is, that I doubt someone from Cincinnati even knows what Rivers have dams and what ones don't. He obviously has a partisan agenda that has nothing to do with fishing in our state. Or wait, am I talking about Slade??? hmmm.

Fact: The top 10% of earners pay most taxes
Fact: I have, over the course of the last 5 years, entered into the top 10% bracket.(editorial note here...I had no idea that the threshold for making the top 10% was so low. You 30-50K folks are VERY close!!)
Fact: Tax rate increases reduce treasury income.
Fact: Tax rate decreases increase treasury income. (please refer to OMB or GAO reports 1960 - 1998)
Fact: The current tax code is written for social engineering and special treatment for political sweethearts of both parties not revenue generation.(see "sin tax" and "methanol subsidies")
Fact: The second ammendment is meant to protect us from an oppressive or tyrannical government.(see "federalist papers" or "constitution of the United States of America")
Fact: The constitution does not SEPARATE church and state.(it merely prohibits establishment of a particular religion by the state)
Fact: "People should pay according to their ability to pay" is one of the tenets of Marxism, the basis for modern socialism.
Fact: The fairest tax system is a flat tax.(everyone pays the same RATE)
Fact: The western states dams are not the only cause of poor fish runs.(perhaps not even the primary cause)
Fact: Slade Gorton will have more power to make positive change regarding fish should a concise, fact based answer to the problem arise.
Fact: I have made a comprehensive case for voting for a conservative senator in WA state.
Fact: No one has made a comprehensive argument against a conservative senator based in fact.
Fact: Every state that has leaned in the conservative direction in the last ten years has seen dramatic improvements in areas social and economic.(John Engler, Tommy Thompson, Christie Whitman, George Bush, Jeb Bush, Frank Keating etc.)
Fact: Economic prosperity leads to social prosperity in a free marketplace.
Fact: There is no better fish on the planet than steelhead.(stretching the definition of fact on that one)
Fact: Patty Murray has been voted #1 dimmest bulb in DC every year for the last three.(do we want more of this?)


Fact: I'm done with this thread

Well Marty I think you should get some kinda of a reward for creating the post with most replys ever in the history of this famed bulletin board.


--
Ryan

Great take Dan S.! You too Obsessed. You guys wrote the real truth. - One thing with me though is I am strongly anti-netting; either by commercials or Indians (but not necessarily anti-treaty otherwise). - wit45, while I admire some of the things you have done for our country and some of the things you stand for I must take strong exception to many of the things you claim as Facts in your above post. First and foremost, the fairest system of taxation can NEVER be a flat tax until we have a fair system of distribution of compensation and wealth, based on actual contribution value to society! There is no such thing as actual "fair" market value systems for compensation because they are much too strongly based on unfair power position advantage. There is THE Fact! Secondly, Slade Gorton will NOT have more power to make postive changes regarding fish because he is complexly hogtied by his wealthy constituents! He has already PROVEN this, so pull your head out of the sand on that one. Third, I think it's quite self-serving for you to make claims giving conservatives credit for some state's improved economic recovery without mentioning the bigger picture. And that is under the previous 3 Republican Presidential terms in office the overall economy of this country went into the toilet when voters were hoodwinked into buying the "less and no new taxes" false promises and the BS "trickle down effect" pitch of helping the rich get richer; which in reality broadened the gap between the "haves & have nots" more than ever before! The current 2 Demo terms in Presidetial office has turned that around into one of the strongest economies this country has ever seen, while at the same time bringing down the crippling immense federal deficit created by the previous Repubican regimes. Undeniable Facts! Here is another fact. During this election year the Republicans will do 2 things above all else: attempt to falsely claim credit for the above mentioned economic turnaround, and make more false promises of large tax cuts trying to buy votes from the "unaware". Here is a prediction: just like the last 2 Presidential elections, I think the "unaware" have had the wool scraped off of their eyes and will keep the Demos in the Whitehouse. And if the majority of Republican senators can ever be pressured into fair campaign finance reform to eliminate the big advantage for the wealthy in all elections we wouldn't even have to debate the Facts. Or ...... maybe I'm just all wrong. I'm sure you're going to let me know. - RT




[This message has been edited by Reel Truth (edited 08-02-2000).]