I did go fishing Sat. and hooked 4 nice steelhead. I also managed to lose all four. Two of the losses I will promptly blame on those of you who did not take me up on the offer. (they were lost while one handing the net)

Fishtick, stop with the name calling, it clouds (at the very least) your argument. Since 5% of earners pay over 90% of taxes and 50% of earners pay NO income tax at all, tax cuts by definition must benefit the wealthier people.(especially when WEALTHY has been defined down to--anyone with a job) Class envy will only work for so long then the truth will out. The problem with dems (apart from being wrong) is that they cannot bring themselves to argue the facts, which I guess forces me to discuss?? things their way.

The last time that the WEALTHY were attacked happened this way. Their money was seized, their businesses stolen, their homes, possesions, everything gone forever. They weren't even really wealthy, but the president and other politicians convinced the citizens that they were, primarily through class envy. They were then made to work to pay back society for their sin of being wealthy and different, thinking they were better than the rest of the people. Some people even said that they thought they were genetically superior to the serfs.

Eventually, SIX MILLION WERE EXTERMINATED.

I think you're probably a good person and I would gladly have you as a neighbor, friend or fishing buddy. Two things just need to be addressed, one, I am not far right, just right. Two, you my friend are not right at all. Lets get back to fishing!!!!!!

Back to the original question on this post, slade's family is very much financialy involved in the commercial fishing industry. Anyone ever heard of Gorton Seafoods?? How can we expect anyone, much less a politician with slade's track record, to vote for what is beneficial to salmon, when he and his right-wing cohorts can continue to stuff their pockets with dirty salmon dollars?? VOTE HIM OUT ASAP!!!

Please pardon my poor choice of references Native Son. Instead of refering to the under-privilaged oppressed of the middle and lower classes as "dumb", I should have refered to those in that situation that continue to buy the con. RW fraud, and vote in their republican cohorts, as being "grossly misinformed". They just lack the means to understand how it really works against them. It's a little more of a challenge to come up with an appropriate reference to "ignorant redneck gun man". How about "wooly brows"? No, that's name calling. Maybe "actually thinks he's right ~ roflmao". It's voters like him that have unfortunately helped divide this country into 4 classes ~ Small minority of powerful oppressors that have everything and want more. The struggling middle class. The low wage slaves that have little or no opportunity to get by any other way than this sub-poverty level of life. And finally the homeless people that were pushed out of jobs they worked hard at for years, and did well at, by the powerful upper echelon bottom line money guys in control. That's class envy?? Hey, I guess I am a little further left than I thought. But not far left, just the proper side of right on . BTW 45 Caliber, this thread has turned appropriately political, and an occasional one that has connections to fishing in addition to everyday life has got to be OK. The far greater number of posts within this thread seems to confirm that. If you find it bothersome then you can get back to fishing by clicking on just those topics. I also will mention reading psychology literature of studies that have proven that the larger the caliber of a man's gun the smaller his penis is extremely likely to be. Bone up on your politics 45 cal.

[This message has been edited by Fishtick (edited 07-24-2000).]

Fishstick, guess we should bring down that small minority of powerful oppressors that already pay 90% of the taxes. Then when they are forced to pay even more taxes they won't be wanting any of those 5 extra houses,8 cars, 3 boats, and 10 G loomis rods. With no one to work for, I wonder how many of the next 2 classes will be joining the last one?
That should make you happy though, more gov. dependants.

[This message has been edited by corky (edited 07-23-2000).]

Fishtick,I think it is you instead of "gunman" that needs to read alittle history.. Ya you are right about the rich getting richer and the poorer staying where they are at. But, you show me anywhere in history where society functioned with everybody as an equal?!?! It will not and cannot happen.. There is always going to be someone who is smarter, more driven, luckier, etc....and these are the ones that will prevail and create jobs for the rest..Should we punish these people for having created jobs and opportunities for the rest?? I think not!!!!!!!!!! You demos, that blame your lack of success on the rich Reps. are the ones that are stupid..Everyone of us has the same oppurtunities to succeed and that is the great advantage of living here.. Fishtick, you might want to quite blaming the govt. for your short comings because it would appear to me that someone with your attitude has some real SHORT COMINGS.. Lets give up on the impossible(agreeing on a political issue) and go fishing..

Fishtick,I think it is you instead of "gunman" that needs to read alittle history.. Ya you are right about the rich getting richer and the poorer staying where they are at. But, you show me anywhere in history where society functioned with everybody as an equal?!?! It will not and cannot happen.. There is always going to be someone who is smarter, more driven, luckier, etc....and these are the ones that will prevail and create jobs for the rest..Should we punish these people for having created jobs and opportunities for the rest?? I think not!!!!!!!!!! You demos, that blame your lack of success on the rich Reps. are the ones that are stupid..Everyone of us has the same oppurtunities to succeed and that is the great advantage of living here.. Fishtick, you might want to quite blaming the govt. for your short comings because it would appear to me that someone with your attitude has some real SHORT COMINGS.. Lets give up on the impossible(agreeing on a political issue) and go fishing..

Steelyhorn: You had the "same opportunities to succeed" as Slade? And Bubba-Dubya Bush?? You were born with a silver spoon in your mouth and a family ties pass into the National Guard (versus Vietnam)?? I doubt it!
"Slade works for you??" Sure, if you're a billionare with lots of campaign money.
I fish & I vote (anyone but Gorton!)

Scaly,Did you vote for Wild Bill???? He's certainly not up for any war medals.. Your right about the silver spoon, I was fed with your standard silverware..

I didn't read all of this thread because frankly you only have to skim to get the gist.
Slade Gorton is not his own man. You want to know exactly how Slade will vote on each and every issue you just need to follow the money. This man is a puppet of big business and big dollars nothing else. I do not believe, after all these years, that he actually has a thought of his own any more. It should not matter whether you are a Dem or Rep since this guy doesn't represent you either way unless you are lining his pockets with big coin.
On a side note...what other politician, Dem or Rep, openly admits to being anti-environmental? Normally you'd think that would mean the end of your political career. Amazing he's been around this long.

Steelyhorn: I appreciate your answer, and owe you one back. Yes, I did vote for Clinton - twice - and I'll be glad to give you my thoughts on his "draft dodging."
Y'see, I went to Vietnam, as part of my 23 year military career (and came home to a very unwelcome U.S.). Some of my friends protested that so-called war, and after being over there, I had great admiration for them. If you went to "Nam," you should know what a farce it was, being more over U.S. oil interests than democracy. Then, our government wouldn't even let us win. I don't know a single VN vet who is proud of his/her part in that Big Mistake (the only "war" this country ever lost!) I could go on and on, but you get my drift.
Bottom line: I have more respect for VN protestors than rich dudes like Dan Quayle and G.W. who dodged by getting into the Guard through "special channels."
Tight lines.

Scaly, Ditto and roger that. When I got home I told my buddys to go to B.C. on a fishing trip and stay until the Navy painted all its boats gray again.

Interesting, not only does it sound as if you regret fighting for your country, you have also given up on continuing the fight. To answer a few questions posed earlier, yes I did have the same opportunities for success as G.W., Bill Clinton, Dan Quayle and the rest. You see, the constitution guarantees me that opportunity along with life, liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness. These rights are endowed upon all of us by our creator and cannot be usurped by anyone. At the most, one can only be prevented by force from exercising them. I also believe that liberals (of the modern definition) can be and are a serious threat to our way of life and our DISTINCT American culture. The ideas and programs they advocate have never been proved to survive for any significant period of time. The proposal of collectivists is that we should all be equal in OUTCOME and I for one despise that thought. I work much harder at my job than some of you and not near as hard as others and I don't deserve to be in the same lot as any of you. What I do deserve is what I am willing to work for at the market value of said work at the time of service. No more and no less. The fact that 56 men signed their own death warrants 225 years ago does not fall lightly on my shoulders. I am proud just to tell people I am American. I am doubly proud of the men in my family who have fought and died in every major american conflict since 1813, irrespective of the reason behind the war or the president at the time. These 56 men knew full well that by signing the Declaration of Independence that they were inviting any british subject to kill not only them but their families. An opportunity the british looked forward to with great anticipation. They would lose any fortunes they may have amassed and sacrifice what little freedom they did have. They had the courage and foresight to do it anyway so that we might enjoy the rights and priveledges that were rightfully ours. They had the courage to tell the world exactly who to blame for this unheard of act of rebellion. We are the ONLY society in history to be founded on an IDEA and to this point it is still working, thanks to the inspired thought of those 56 men.

If you fellas have such an affinity for the socialist ways of Canada that you felt it necessary to encourage friends to go there, I have but one question for you. Why did you not pack up and move there upon your return to the states. Your countrymen were ungrateful, your President put you through hell for a few gallons of oil and no matter what you might have done, no matter how hard you worked, studied, toiled and sweat you were never gonna amount to anything close to G.W. or Bubba for lack of nothing more than a silver spoon. Heck, after that you might be packing now huh??? I doubt it. The reason you stayed boils down to one word..........FREEDOM. The freedom to stay, the freedom to complain, the freedom to express your displeasure and most of all the freedom to succeed or fail on your own merits. If you don't catch any fish one day do you blame all of the wealthy fishermen around you with their fancy sleds and expensive motors and 5 GLoomis rods, ten Curado reels and 20 lbs of eggs for controlling all of the fishing, no you don't.(unless your really a pansy) You blame yourself and your fishing prowess. Succeed or fail on your own merits. Society and economics are not a zero sum game, in that just because I gain, you do not necessarily lose. If you would care for an in depth lesson in economics and the truth about free markets I would be happy to oblige.

I pity you both who cannot find pride in defending the security of the greatest nation ever conceived. And yes, I do consider beating back communism at every turn fighting for the security of America, it has always been a threat and it always will be.

Huh? The rich pay 90% of the countries taxes? lol Countless large corporations don't pay taxes because the "rich" dudes in power hold the government hostage by threatening to take their offices, plants, and JOBS to other places that won't tax them. The individual rich have many loopholes and write-offs to minimize their taxes. And reading thru these posts I didn't see anyone suggest that we should all be equals with equal OUTCOMES, as a couple rightwings wrongly implied. Only suggestions for a more fair progressive system of distribution. I admire your passionate patriotic stance 45 but your right wing economic fundamentals don't work quite as you describe in the real world. Women and minorities not only get paid less than the upper class white males for the SAME work, but they are also unfairly discriminated from equal opportunity! Proven facts!

Wit45cal, Wow this is heavy thought provoking stuff! Back in 1968 I don't think to many young kids like my self actually knew that Canada had a Liberal Socialist government to run to. Some did though know that the other side of the border was safe from being sent to Viet Nam and that was the reason to go.
As to why not go there after I returned, thats an amazing question to ask somebody who paid with blood sweat and tears the price of his DISTINCT FREEDOM. I didn't have to go, as a matter of fact during the last 30 plus years one thought has always helped me through the rough spots in my personal role as an activist in differing agendas. When faced with an unpopular outcome or a hostile group I always think in regard to the negative outcome or response so what are they going to do send me to Nam. The whole idea being that regardless what is done from now on nothing can be done to me that is more horriffic than that which was done to me and many like myself by the powers that be. So mate dont get to lofty with your Philosophy eloquent as it is it just don't quite ring true.

Wit45cal: Up yours, "civilian" (if your head isn't still in the way)! You've got colossal nerve jumping on two VN vets about patriotism. Are you some kind of sheep who would march into something you knew was wrong?? And never question your government?
Native Son and I went over, remember? And killed some commies (and God knows who else, since the enemy didn't wear uniforms). That make you happy? I then put another 15 years in the service before "retiring," still ready to fight for your freedoms if a legitimate conflict had arisen during those volatile "cold war" years. In fact, I'm still ready now, since military retirement means a "standby" status. My uniforms are still in the closet (with my guns), in case I again have to defend your freedom to twist the truth!
You like American history? Why don't you bone up on the Vietnam era, and try to understand how that "war" was nothing like the others we've fought, and why it tore this country apart. Or visit a psych ward at a VA hospital and ask those poor VN vets what they think of their sacrifices, and whether they'd do it again.
And then tell us about your combat record. Surely you've been in uniform too, right?? If not, then stick to a subject you know about!
Sincerely, "7.62mm"

Getting back to Slade: How can anyone, especially a hunter or a fisherman, justify voting for Slade Gorton? The guy is a one-man environmental disaster. Take a look at his voting record, he has consistently voted in favor of the rape of our natural resources. Be it mining, logging, or his opposition to breaching the Lower Snake River dams in contradiction of the overwhelming majority of scientific opinion, not to mention his dilatory tactics that have held up removal of the Elwha dams for years now. I suspect that the balance of his support among sportsmen comes from NRA members and supporters who are concerned with the loss of his vote on gun control issues. I'm an NRA member myself, and believe that the Second Amendment is as much a bulwark of our freedoms as is the First Amendment, but I draw the line at Slade! I'm sorry, Charlton and Wayne, but the price that we would have to pay to retain Slade Gorton is just too high.

Getting back to the topic, FISHING. Wit45Cal said to go ahead and vote against Slade if you are a one issue voter. What do you think this is? This is a fishing message board, not a political debate. The question is wether Slade is bad for the sport fisherman, and I think we have answered that.

hammerhead, you better know what you are talking about before you "lol". 5% of the population pays almost 90% of the taxes. Your credability is pretty low when you shoot you mouth off without knowing what your talking about.

No offense to Hammerhead or Corky or anyone, really, but when you make such profound statements like that you are sort of "shooting your mouths off" if you don't back your ultra partisan claims with creditable and verifiable evidence. Excuse my venting a bit here because any heated political discussion I've ever heard turns to seemingly questionable self-serving claims and often baseless discrediting of others who are of the opposite political persuation. Geez, how about something real on here instead of slinging partisan bullsh*t like the political candidates do? The only thing I've read here in 57 posts I can put some real faith in is that Slade should fade.

Hey Reeltruth it is an election year and the point is well taken but realisticly don't you think this disscussion has been good for the folks who want a little exposure to the views of some anglers who actually think about who and why they will vote. I dont doubt for a minute that some one with ties to the Gorton campaign has shown this to someone in the political planning group for some action during the campaign this fall. I doubt it will have much impact on dear old Slade other than to have him focus briefly on a press release proudly announcing how he almost single handed got the nessecary funding for the removal of the Lower Elwha Dam and additional funding to study the restoration project (translated Delay tactic)
But your right the chatter did range away from traditional fish guy prattle and I for one think it was good.
Preston hows the Yakima fishing.