Dcrzfitter first of all when I put in that post you were not being compared to a snagger. I was pointing out that when there is two illegal acts why is one seemingly accepted and the other isn't. As for when a guide hooks up and gives someone else the rod it's perfectly legal unless he has retained a limit. Here's a little advice don't try and tell the Warden you were fishing for Cutthroats with your steelhead gear if you do your going to get a ticket for sure.

Last Cast,

I guess you can look at it like this. I'm a speeder. I'm usually at 5-10 mph above the speed limit unless I'm in a school zone or a neighborhood. I'm a lawbreaker and I won't deny it. However, I don't consider myself in the same league as a thief or vandal. To me there are varying degrees of breaking the law, and varying degrees of "unacceptance" of said acts. Sure, we're both breaking the law, but as differing sentences tell you, some offenses are worse than others. dcrzfitter was technically outside the bounds of the regs., but a snagger isn't on the same level in my view. Intentionally snagging and keeping fish is blatantly wrong, whereas what dcrz was doing is technically wrong, but not a blatant abuse of the laws. JMHO.

Fisn on........

Dan S I grew up in a family that has two law enforcement officers. Try that line of B.S. on a cop or warden sometime.

Thanks Dan, that was what I was trying to say, but I guess I didn't get it out right.

Dan S.
Don't forget litterer.
Or was that just failure to carry the appropriate litter bag?
You be da baaaaaaad boy.
Just trying to lighten the mood a little.
Any way, any Lawyer will tell you that the most important factor in crime is criminal intent. This intent is also one of the harder things to prove in court however.
No I'm not a lawyer and shame on you for thinking what you are thinking right now.
Intent is present when you set out to snag fish no matter how much you try to fool yourself and others by rationalizing that what you're doing is alright since... (you fill in the blank).
"The measure of a mans character is how he behaves when no one is watching".



[This message has been edited by grumpyr (edited 08-03-2000).]

I think what Dan S is saying is that just because 2 acts are against the law doesn’t mean they weigh the same. We have felonies and misdemeanors. You don’t look at j-walking and murder the same.

BW,

I'll take my chances with the Law Enforcement officers. I speed, and if I get caught, I pay the ticket. I didn't ask for your approval or disapproval, so get on with your life. If you can't see the difference, then maybe your head doesn't see the sun enough.

D-ick, you and your son better watch out for those flying elk if you hunt the east side of town.

[This message has been edited by corky (edited 08-03-2000).]

Hello, all.

Long time, no post. I guess I've been taking a break and refusing to participate in the off-topic discussions that have lately dominated this otherwise exceptional board.

However, on this one, I couldn't help myself. I apologize to those who couldn't care less and wish that this crap would end.

I am a lawyer, and what a few people on this board know, and most don't, is that I have spent the majority of my legal career as one of the Department of Fish and Wildlife's lawyers. Now that I don't work there anymore, I feel free to let that bit of info. out here.

While I agree that there are varying degrees of "badness" in violations, the fact of the matter is that violations are violations. When it comes to getting a ticket, snagging, keeping more than your limit, and taking even one more cast after killing your limit, all are going to get you in hot water if enforcement does happen to come along.

Lack of enforcement, or the feeling that if he's getting away with it, why can't I?, is never an excuse. Lack of enforcement gives all of us the opportunity to self-enforce, or even get all over the violator that you see on a river if you're that kind of person (Which I am on occasion).

It all comes down to a matter of respect. Respect for the others who fish for steelhead and salmon, or whatever. Respect for the fish themselves. Most importantly, it comes down to self-respect. If you need to violate a law to bring home a fish to impress someone, then you need to reevaluate the reasons why you fish.

I'm not perfect, nor is anyone else on this board, but I try my damndest to get as close as I can, especially when it comes to fish and game laws. It DOES come down to morals, and my biggest motivation to be lawful is not fear of enforcement, it's a fear of loss of self respect.

This is only my two cents, and people may feel otherwise. I challenge you to think about why you feel otherwise, if you do.

Peace, brothers and sisters.

Fish on...

Todd.

Dan S, have been out of town for a few days and could not repley to your responce.

I did not intend for my post to look like a personal attack, sorry. But with that said, if we want the fishing to improve in this state we must not only work on the environment, and advocate catch and release, but we must also obey the laws. It dose not matter if we agree with them or not. It sets a poor example to new fisher persons to say that violating a misdomener is not a problem or no big deal. Once again sorry for the personal attack.
Bob

BW,

Agreed. Any violation of the game laws should be frowned upon. The fewer violations that take place, the better off we all are.

Fish on.......

Oh yer right I was a lil bit wrong. Thanx. I will be sure and keap that in my mind. I do try and follow the rules and this time I didn't. I will look into that trout limit more closely next time. And my Steelie gear is also my trout gear. I fish noodle rods with light line most of the time so why wouldn't I be able to fish for cuts. I catch them alot when I am not trying (and I put them back because they aren't worth keaping, in my mind). Thanks for pointing out my lil mis understanging with the trout limit.

SalmonHead. My cuzin was with me also and I could have put that second fish on his card or my bro's .


dcrzfitter

Todd...right on. Situational ethics gives us guys like Bill Clinton pretending to be a leader. Integrity....it's as rare as 40lb kings these days. It has been replaced by selfishness....I'll get mine...while the gettins good, to hell with anybody else. This mind-set has justified thrown several sockeye under the floor boards, shootin a double limit of ducks, and shottin elk at night cause its so much easier.

Poachers (outlaws)....stay away from me (and my sons)!

One at a time, the name of the game. Follow the people, get a plate number. Use a cell phone, point out that its wrong. Even a boat with a motor has vin numbers. Any way to stop it. Letting it go is as bad as doing the crime. Use your head don't get hurt.

Somebody said on here that the best judge of a man's character is his behavior when he is alone. You know that most of the guys are usually master baiting when they are alone for very long. So what does that have to do with character?

Barhoppin' again, Fishtick??????

Fishtick....you have way too much time on you're hands...well maybe it isn't time that's on you're hands....

Fellas...rules are rules and they should be followed as closely as possible.

It is my belief that the person who sets the hook should land the fish. A guide handing off a hooked fish is as wrong as landing it and then punching it on another card. If he would like to land it and punch it then give it to a less fortunate angler so be it. There is a difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law.(it depends on what the meaning of "is" is. as one example)
This issue speaks to my point on another thread about guides being "commercials". They do get paid to produce dead fish for money.(again, with the exception of Bob at times) Don't get me wrong as I would love to be good enough to be a guide(I am working toward that goal) but the purpose of a guide is to bring the horse to water, not roll him over and pour it in. Location, tackle and presentation are in my view within the purview of a guide, while hooking, playing or landing a fish relegates him to mere angler status. As a fellow angler, no reasonable person would expect him to hand off a hooked fish so why should we accept this behavior from "professionals". He is, after all, being paid for his wisdom not his hookset. My perfect world would of course make exceptions for the young, old and/or handicapped but the spirit is the same, HOOK, PLAY AND LAND YOUR OWN DANG FISH!!!!!!

I am curious, do the guides on this board consider themselves sporties or commercials when fishing with paying customers?

Wit, Spot on response, all the more reason, for commercial guides to have their own quota.

In a perfect world "HOOK, PLAY AND LAND YOUR OWN DANG FISH" sounds great but not reasonalbe. To expect someone to pay $150. that has never even held a rod before, that he is on his own, after I hand him a baited rod and tell him where to cast just won't fly in the real world. No amount guiding/teaching is going to replace days on the river needed to become adept enough to hook, play and land your own fish. It's takes everyone days upon days with dad teaching us to get that good. Paying customers expect you to hook them into a fish one way or another. Some wealthy customers can afford to go enough times to become good fishermen and they actually will refuse a rod unless they hook it themselves. But they have many hours and dollars invested at that point. Many people save up for a once in a life time trip or come from around the world to fish for West coast Salmon and they don't have a clue. It would be nice if they did but it just isn't going to happen. I would like to respectfully disagree with the statement that Professionals are being paid for their wisdom not their hookset. The hookset is exactly what the customer thinks that he is paying for. Many, many guides refuse to even share any knowledge with their clients for fear of competition. I think that is to bad, but if a client goes back a second time it is his problem. And many do because the guide got him into fish. If all guides taught everything that they knew to every person they took fishing what do you think our rivers would look like? That's a scary thought.