I decided to try vision hooks and what a joke it was.Straightened 2 2/0 hooks on two big fish.I was very disapointed!I bought 50 so I guess that was a waste of $...Tied up a gammy and laned a nice 27lb king.My mistake tryin something new I guess..TM

Yeah, I have to agree with you, I talked to a sales rep (Superfly) last spring and told him I was interested in trying his hooks, I guide in Alaska and tie 900-1000 mooching leaders each year with Gami's and thought they would be worth checking out, the idea of saving a couple hundred bucks on hooks sounded good. Superfly said he would send a few to try but I never recieved them, I shelled out a few bucks and bought 100 4/0 hooks, out of this I got 42 leaders and just from tying the leaders I wasn't impressed, I used about 8-10 leaders and had no confidence in them, most had to be sharpened, and had 2 leaders with bent hooks after landing 25lb. kings, used gami's the rest of the season, think Superflop needs to go back to the drawing board and quit using Vision hooks in the same sentence as Gamakatsu.

I was also supposed to get some hooks from Superfly. Was planning on givng them to a buddy who fishes the Professional Walleye Trail tour. Thought I could get him a little exposure to the walleye fishermen in the Midwest. The hooks never showed up.

For what it's worth, we've had just the opposite experience. Two winters ago we kept breaking brittle hooks on John's Jigs (not sure what hooks they use now, but they used Gammi at the time). Started tying our own jigs using some Vision Hooks that Joe sent us and haven't broke one since...I think they are just as strong and have fewer defective ones. There have been a few hooks in the packages that needed sharpening, but that's no different than Gammi and who doesn't check their hooks before using them anyway?

Kevin
FH http://www.fishermansheaven.com

Still waiting for my visions also

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Row Quietly and fish a Cataraft }<<(('>----<'))>>{
Release all Wild Fish

Mike Sexton of Mike's guide service swears by the vision hook's,We used last Saturday on the cow.On that trip I saw two bent hook's and one broken one,He said they had come a long way but I'll stick with the best gammi!!!!!!I've only broken two or three gammi's,did that in one trip with vision.It makes it hard to stray.More then anything I think all hook company's produce a bad batch here and there even gammi,I won't use there nickle hook's again due to there points breaking off.I switched to the black for mooching rigs and haven't had any problems. Just my .02. STRIKE ZONE

I will never buy or tell a friend to buy vision hooks they are junk.I lost 2 big hogs on the Chehalis due to the hooks braking so I thru the hole box in the trash can at the lanch and a guy ask me what I did that for so I told him and he had the same results. GAMIES FOR EVER!!!!!!!!!!

I would be willing to bet that I have used more Vision hooks than most Washington fishermen (over 2000 hooks in Wa and Ak over the past year) and I have never had a problem. I have seen a few funny bends and bad eyes in a box of "V's" but I've seen gammi quality control problems too. I'm not saying that broken/bent hooks don't happen, but if you're bending a "V" chances are a gammi will bend under the same pressure. Speaking of pressure maybe a little lighter drag might solve the problem. For my money, Vision gives you twice the hooks-at half the price. Good Luck!

[This message has been edited by TJN (edited 09-21-2000).]

No real reason in talking about Gammis or vision hooks when there is OWNER CUTTING POINTS, nothing will ever touch these hooks. Penetration is second to nothing, once a fish is hooked you need a winch to pull them out of their mouth!!! Owners cost a couple bucks extra per pack but when you have a 62lb chinook on the wall, and a 29.25lb steelhead from southwest WA both were on 2/0 owners you'd realize that a couple extra dollars makes a real difference. Gamakatsu has to be the worst hook on the market they have the worst and smallest barb, may as well fish with a pinched barb, and for Vision at least they have a barb and really no further comment....

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stlhdr,

Gammies are the worst hook on the market?? After that statement, I find it hard to take anything else you said seriously.

In the published tests I've seen, Gammy and Owner hooks were both rated very high on strength and sharpness scales. But the barbs on the Gammies are small for a reason. It is to aid in penetration, but you trade off some holding ability. You can't have it both ways. Either you get faster penetration with less force, or you get a hook that holds better once you get a solid hookset. Claiming anything else defies the laws of physics.

Sure Owner hooks are great hooks, and I agree that the extra money you spend on a good hook is small change in comparison to the other costs of fishing. But to say that Gammies are the worst hook on the market is just plain goofy IMHO.

Fish on........

Dan S, I agree with you totally.I bought some owner hook's back when blue creek was the $hit in 1992 or so.First three hook'used I broke that was the end of owner hook's for me.Gammi all the way. STRIKE ZONE

Just Curious but what pound line do you guys use? Certianly mono would break before a hook would. I use light line so I don't worry about my hooks breaking, hell that thought doesn't even cross my mind while fishing. I use #4's reguarly and 6 pound leader, if I break a hook with 6 pound test there is a line that I will invest in for a life time! Breaking a 2/0 hook is amazing. I landed a 62 pound king 2 years ago on a small river with 10 pound leader and a #2 hook. I wasn't worried about my hook breaking nearly as I was if my line would be enough. Granite I use Gamakatsu hooks alot, but I have used Visions and have had great success with them. I have not used anything larger than size 1 but all of the sizes below that seem to be great! No complaints here. I have also used Mustads, no complaints there either. Eagle Claw, they are considered the bottom of the line when it comes to salmon and steelhead hooks and I have used them in the past and have had no complaints there except they aren't real sharp. I think if people are breaking hooks, you people must be fishing a different breed of fish than I am because I have hooked big steelhead and salmon and on one occasion I snapped a Tadpolly in half when the fish rolled, I was using 8 pound test and it broke by force, I was using a #2 Vision hook for a single siwash and it held up just fine, well fine compared to the plug... Dan S. you ever broken hooks?

Andy Matthews

Andy- you might want to read my post again!I said STRAIGHTENED not broke.And as far as that goes I was using 17#main 15# leader.Maybe try maxima its tough!!!!TM

Gammies are the best chemically sharpened hook on the market for salmon and steelhead. Personally I use a file and mustad. It may take more time, but I know they will stand up when I put the screws to Mr Fishie.
Tight Lines

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Marty
Steelheader.net marty@steelheader.net

Andy I was in your back yard and was using 20lb main and 15lb leader when the 2/0 broke trying to keep the fish out of the wood I had a lot of pressure on the fish when the hook let go. I also have had a big hook nose snap a tadpolly in half and still landed the fish.

OWNER's Kick Butt.. I have to agree with STLHDR. I used to swear by Gammies but I was turned on to OWNER's by a friend a few years back, and I'm hooked. I dont mind paying a few dollars more for OWNER hooks, they're WORTH it. If I had lost my last OWNER hook to a salmon in the river, I'd rather go home than use another Brand hook from someone else!!

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Andy,

To answer your question, I've broken a few hooks but VERY few, and I haven't had one break in several years, although I've straightened some hooks out a few times, although mostly lighter gauge hooks on jigs. If I broke a hook on a fish, without my line breaking first, I'd be plenty pissed off. If it happened twice in the same batch of hooks ( ALL brands have manufacturing defects in a small percentage of their hooks, usually the more you pay, the less defects) the rest would go in the trash.

Keep in mind that I usually fish from a boat, so that minimizes the numbers of times you have to REALLY put the screws to a fish and test your tackle's limits. But I've put the screws to many a big chum, just to get them in quickly, and I haven't had a hook fail in several years. I mostly use Gamakatsu hooks, but I also use Mustads, Owners, and some fine wire Eagle Claw hooks on jigs. There's nothing wrong with any of these hooks, in my mind, as long as you use appropriately sized line for the gauge of hook you're using.

Just remember, whatever brand you're using, keep your hooks SHARP on EVERY cast. Don't play the clown and keep fishing with a dull hook for a "few casts", since one of the casts could be the one "Fat Bast*rd" decides to pick up for a second. Since Gammies are extremely difficult to put a point back on, due to the chemical sharpening process, some guys don't care for them. I just cut it off, pitch it and tie on another Gammy. I figure the price of hooks is small change compared to how much flow I spend on tackle, rods, reels, line, etc., so why use either cheap or dull hooks? Unless you're a guide, and use vast quantities of hooks, I don't think most guys can really justify trying to save a few clams on hooks.

Of course, this is just MY opinion. As far as the hook debate goes, it's a Ford/Chevy thing for the most part. Use hooks you feel you can depend on, keep them sharp, and the rest is fundamental.

Fish on........

I'll eat my hat if one of you can tell me a story about an Eagle Claw beaked hook breaking. Three years ago I had a huge Peninsula fall-run king completely break in half a 4/0 octopus Gammy. Eversince, 4/0 and 5/0 Eagle Claw Gold Points tied to 40 lb clear Maxima leader has been the ticket. Gotta sharpen them though...

For everything else Gamkatsu! I'll admit that Owner makes an extremely fine hook and I love their Flyliner and Gorilla models for Albacore and 'tails. But during an average fishing venture on a Pacific Northwest river I go through way too many leaders to justify the cost of using Owners.

SUZUKI SANDMAN I must say you do understand what is going on in the hook world. Hey Dan S. I certainly wasn't trying to violate your intelegence but if you've ever seen a wild tidewater summer steelhead you'd understand why barbs and maximum penetration is the key. When those fish come flying out of the water doing cartwheels a large barb makes a great difference. There are two types of owners the needle point and cutting point. The cutting point was designed to break the law of physics. Once you set the hook on a fish the dynamics of the hook keep penetrating into the fishes mouth.
When I oringinally started fishing when I was 11. My dad had me using the mustads that if you ever lightly hung up on a rock you would have to file your hook. Then when I was about 17 or so I switched to gamakatsus and had stickers on my truck and everything they were a great hook. I probably went through 1500 of them ranging from size #4 to 4/0. Then a buddy of mine introduced me to OWNER CUTTING POINTS when I was 20 or so and WILL NEVER GO BACK. All of you who want to stick to Gamakatsus I guess ME and SUZUKI SANDMAN will come in behind and land those lost fish!!! Just kidding!!

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Confidence is the key to be a successful angler. Use the best equipment you can afford, have confidence in your chosen techniques, match your hooks to your rod, reel, line strength etc., and keep your hooks sharp! Having stated that, I do use Gammi's, and have been quite happy with them! Good Fishing

Hohwian' Hope you got tasty hats. The number of stories about broken Eagle claw hooks is probably like the stars in the sky whos counting.
All hooks break as they all have seconds that make it through the inspection loop. Just be thankful guys that they are so much better now than they were a few years ago.
I look at the average quality that is present in todays market and it never ceases to amaze me. Regarding hooks we have truly never had it so good.

Last time this thread was on here I think it got up to 100 replies. All I know is you are never going to make everyone happy all the time. What I do know is that Vision hooks is growing faster than We can keep up with, Our sucesses far out way our failures and that just about every gammy staffer is now a Vision staffer and anyone who sends me request for hooks usaully gets them. I recieve 100 or so request a week that I turn into the whare house for shipping, if you did not get your samples then let me know through an e-mail but do not attack me personally, do I do that to You, No! As far as the hooks breaking, no way, I have broken many gamaktsu before visions while testing hooks head to head, so if you broke a vision, then you would have broke a gammy before the vision broke. We went into the market place with one thing in mind. To sell a high quality hook at a price everyone can afford, which we have been succesful at. Now we are growing having added jig hooks, Worm hooks, offset worm hooks and the si-wash are on the way. Soon there will be fly hooks. That is the great thing about this country , we can buy and use whatever we want.
Peace Superfly

Superfly, in 11 yrs of guiding I have used Gammies almost exclusively, in that time I cannot remember bending more then just a handful of hooks, most were on large halibut. I tried vision hooks for the first week of this past season and bent 2 on sub 30lb. kings, also, I bought 2 boxes of 1000 gammies this spring, first box I had 3 bad hooks, second box had 2, bought 100 Vision and had 8 bad hooks, sorry, your QC just doesn't cut it for me.

C'mon "AKkings" ! Eight hooks out of 1000? compared to three? Look at the price difference. You're still coming out way ahead. Did those "sub 30lb. kings" make it into the boat? and if so did you notice the bend only after using your pliers to remove the deeply imbedded hook? If you're honest with yourself I think that the answers to those questions are "yes" and you are slamming a new product that can only force gammi to lower their prices and raise their quality. Long live competition! Vision Hooks are still the best hook for the buck. Good Luck!

TJN, I released both fish using a shaker stick (if you know how to use them which I do,you don't bend hooks) I'm sure they were both bent before I released the fish. As for price, as a guide I'm going to use the best hook I can find at any price because I will be tipped according to what I put in the box, maybe you don't mind losing an occasional fish if it means saving a little money, but I can't afford to.

TJN,

Wasn't that 3 hooks out of 1000 vs. 8 hooks out of 100? That's a .3% defect rate vs. an 8% defect rate. That IS a significant difference. The question is, is it significant enough when you consider the difference in price? Face it, quality control costs money, and those increased production costs will be reflected in the price of the hooks. While I think the price of Gammy hooks reflects their name recognition, as well as high quality control, I also think they have a good product. Since I don't use more than 5-600 hooks a year, if that, the cost of Gammies is small change in my fishing budget.

Fish on......

My mistake, I read that 100 as 1000. Sorry about the error. I think we'll probably have to agree to disagree on this one. I've been using gammi's ever since Mustad stopped sharpening their hooks in the early 1980's (Mustad has since re-started sharpening their hooks) However, the price of gammi's has always stuck in my craw which is why I switched to Vision. I too am a guide and if I thought for one second that Visions were costing me fish I would'nt use 'em. But I do use 'em and I highly recommend Vision hooks. Good Luck!

O.K. ...nobody yell at me...but I use VMC treblehooks and Ive never had a problem. They seem sharp(i file everything anyway)and I can't recall them ever bending out. Don't care much for their single hooks because of the style (shank seems too long for the amount of gap). But most of all, I can spell the name when someone asks me what brand I use...V M C ya, thats it, VMC! Gami caps shoe...Gami cats chew... Gami..is that you? Naw, I can afford the expensive stingers. I just can't take the embarrassment of mis pronounciation.....pro nun see ay tion?